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Starglyte

The Outer Reach

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 I was wondering where Deathwatch could go now that we have Honour the Chapter and the various world books for Jericho Reach. I am really looking forward to this book, since I always liked the mysterious and Lovecraftian horror more than a straight up bolter fight.  The little bits about the Dead Cabal are intriguing. 

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 Moving beyond the Crusade is the right step for Deathwatch. There are plenty of stories to be told about the war effort, but ultimately this is what the Deathwatch is all about: going out, finding new and interesting xenos cultures, and blowing them right the hell up.

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I know it's superficial but 'Dead Cabal' did something for me. I frankly can't wait for my 'Keeper' to be inducted into it's ranks. That & the fact that when I GM my next campaign Necrons are certainly going to be the overarching evil & it'll be be nice to have a deeper rule set for them (that's to say, deeper that those found in the 'Black Crussade' core book).

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We had a blast testing this one. The Necrons make for a great enemy!

Cannot wait to see the finished product. gran_risa.gif

BYE

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Necrons are cool and everything, but I hope that we´ll see some realy creepy and lovecraftian horrors in there. Something like Umbra

Umbra_Awesome.jpg

Or Enslavers. Or Hrud. Slaught. Children of the Kingdom. Khrave Mindeaters… 

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I am struggling to actually see what the book "is" if that makes any sense (adventure? Background? Bestiary?), but it certainly looks interesting.

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To me it looks like a sourcebook for Game Masters (such as Achillus Assault and Jericho Reach), funny that these expansions are since Disciples of Dark Gods best parts of each 40kRPG game line

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Looks interesting. The Jerico Reach setting has always been my least favorite part of Deathwatch; this could go a long way toward changing my opinion…

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Starglyte said:

 I always liked the mysterious and Lovecraftian horror more than a straight up bolter fight.

Maybe you should play Dark Heresy?

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Kshatriya said:

Starglyte said:

 

 I always liked the mysterious and Lovecraftian horror more than a straight up bolter fight.

 

 

Maybe you should play Dark Heresy?

 

I personally like the idea of being super powerful and still not being able to do anything against the horrors. Alternatively, a Dark Heresy party investigating something super horrifying on some dead world will die in the first encounter, while a group of Astartes can survive tougher fights. They have the durability to get through horrifying things, and you then have them conserve bolt rounds and spare limbs.

 

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 I do have Dark Heresy and I like it. But when I think 40k, I think Space Marines, and a supplement that helps makes  Deathwatch more like Lovecraftian horror is a big plus in my book.

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To me it is a little different. I like to throw "horror" at my players but obviously a KT of Astartes is not going to fear the same way a cell of acolytes is…because they're biologically designed not to do so. A thing that would casually give IP to a Space Marine might make a mrotal's heart stop with dread; conversely, a thing that is jarring to a mortal won't make a Space Marine flinch.

That said I also think the different FFG game lines have very big and separate themes. DH is paranoia, investigation, the occult, horror, facing insurmountable odds with inferior quality. RT is exploration, profit, empire-building, and more wondrous than any of the others. DW is strongly combat-focused, more on the special ops side. Whereas OW is focused on combat from the grunt and trencher's side of things, with some investigation thrown in. BC is really mutable in that its theme is more about moral corruption in your chosen method than a particular method in and of itself.

What I mean by this is that you can certainly do occult investigation in DW, but the baseline game theme is superhuman combat where you are demigods among men when it comes to fightan. Whereas the base theme in DH is a lot of horrific investigating and feeling very small in a big nasty universe.

DH themes can work in DW, the game itself is somewhat less suited to it since Astartes are not built for investigation, deception, covert social situations, or experiencing horror. It really depends on the players though and understanding that a Rank 3 acolyte of virtually any stripe is probably a better investigator (on the skills end if not the characteristics end) than a Rank 3 Space Marine.

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Necrons at last! Diving into Tomb and fighting C'tan Shard would be awesome. It also gives little hope that FFG finally understood that Deathwatch should be about fighting Xenos not Chaos.

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Shadow Walker said:

[…] -FFG finally understood that Deathwatch should be about fighting Xenos not Chaos.

Amen! If I want to play Space Marines fighing Chaos, I'll build a campaign around the Grey Knights rules from the Dark Heresy supplement Deamonhunter, and stay true to the core concept.

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Kshatriya said:

To me it is a little different. I like to throw "horror" at my players but obviously a KT of Astartes is not going to fear the same way a cell of acolytes is…because they're biologically designed not to do so. A thing that would casually give IP to a Space Marine might make a mrotal's heart stop with dread; conversely, a thing that is jarring to a mortal won't make a Space Marine flinch.

That said I also think the different FFG game lines have very big and separate themes. DH is paranoia, investigation, the occult, horror, facing insurmountable odds with inferior quality. RT is exploration, profit, empire-building, and more wondrous than any of the others. DW is strongly combat-focused, more on the special ops side. Whereas OW is focused on combat from the grunt and trencher's side of things, with some investigation thrown in. BC is really mutable in that its theme is more about moral corruption in your chosen method than a particular method in and of itself.

What I mean by this is that you can certainly do occult investigation in DW, but the baseline game theme is superhuman combat where you are demigods among men when it comes to fightan. Whereas the base theme in DH is a lot of horrific investigating and feeling very small in a big nasty universe.

DH themes can work in DW, the game itself is somewhat less suited to it since Astartes are not built for investigation, deception, covert social situations, or experiencing horror. It really depends on the players though and understanding that a Rank 3 acolyte of virtually any stripe is probably a better investigator (on the skills end if not the characteristics end) than a Rank 3 Space Marine.

I love Lovecraftian horrors in games because I'm not out to scare the characters - I'm out to scare my players. I want them to look at this barely euclidian thing crawling through angles towards them and think "Holy **** - we can't take this!" then have their own characters prove them wrong in ways that make us all high five each other for weeks.

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Shadow Walker said:

Necrons at last! Diving into Tomb and fighting C'tan Shard would be awesome. It also gives little hope that FFG finally understood that Deathwatch should be about fighting Xenos not Chaos.

Deathwatch is about fighting all the enemies of Man, mostly Xenos, but I'd say the VAST majority of people would find it boring to not have ANY rules for loyalist SMs fighting CSMs. I have hope that FFG will continue to expand Chaos options, and I don't think FFG needs to "finally" understand anything in doing so.

 

Adeptus-B said:

Shadow Walker said:

 

[…] -FFG finally understood that Deathwatch should be about fighting Xenos not Chaos.

 

 

Amen! If I want to play Space Marines fighing Chaos, I'll build a campaign around the Grey Knights rules from the Dark Heresy supplement Deamonhunter, and stay true to the core concept.

You make it sound as if GKs would NEVER fight xenos. Sheesh.

Also Daemon Hunter uses the awful DH psychic rules, heh.

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Kshatriya said:

Also Daemon Hunter uses the awful DH psychic rules, heh.

What's so awful about the DH psychic rules? I actually like them better than the bland, flavorless WP skill check cooked up by FFG.

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Adeptus-B said:

 

Shadow Walker said:

 

[…] -FFG finally understood that Deathwatch should be about fighting Xenos not Chaos.

 

 

Amen! If I want to play Space Marines fighing Chaos, I'll build a campaign around the Grey Knights rules from the Dark Heresy supplement Deamonhunter, and stay true to the core concept.

 

 

 

Except that from a thematic and gameplay perspective, having Grey Knights fight Traitor Marines is quite different.

 

Firstly, Grey Knight are equipped very differently and fight very differently from either other Loyalist Marines and Traitor Marines. If a GM pits loyalist Marines (whether of the Deathwatch or "standard" Chapters) against CSM for gameplay reasons, he does so to allow for a "mirror-match". Putting a dark mirror in front of the player characters and their players to fight against. Similar equpiment, similar tactics, similar capabilities. With Grey Knights these things fly right out of the window.

Thematically, Grey Knights handle and view fighting Traitor Marines very differently from other Loyalist Marines. Grey Knights stand apart from other Loyalists more than perhaps any other Chapter. Their view of the world and themselves is very different (up to some Grey Knights even refering to other Loyalists Chapters collectively as "the lesser Chapters"). For most Loyalists, a CSM is a Fallen Brother that must be dealt with to Honour the Emperor, their Primarch, their own Vows and -dare I say it?- ease their own doubts. CSM are what a Loyalist could be if he loses what makes him loyal. Thematically, just as above, they are the ultimate dark mirror. Grey Knights could hardly relate to that. Their ties to other Space Marines are slim indeed and their very nature is different. For a Grey Knight, a CSM is almost just another enemy to slay.

Therefore, many of the themes that makes Loyalist vs Traitor interesting are lost when the players are Grey Knights. Of course you could argue that then the GM could make a campaign with all PCs being from one Chapter, but then you lose what makes Deathwatch fun and special compared to single-Chapter games.

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borithan said:

 

I am struggling to actually see what the book "is" if that makes any sense (adventure? Background? Bestiary?), but it certainly looks interesting.

 

 

Like others mentioned, it looks like a setting book. And as is heavily implied to be about the 'dark corners of the map', the places where people used to write "here be dragons", and will cover the terrifying, malevolent horrors that lurk out there among the periphery of Man's domains.

TorogTarkdacil812 said:


To me it looks like a sourcebook for Game Masters (such as Achillus Assault and Jericho Reach), funny that these expansions are since Disciples of Dark Gods best parts of each 40kRPG game line
 

 

Not so surprising really, the fluffy bits of 40K have always been what makes the fans, above and beyond the game itself.

 

Shadow Walker said:

Necrons at last! Diving into Tomb and fighting C'tan Shard would be awesome. It also gives little hope that FFG finally understood that Deathwatch should be about fighting Xenos not Chaos.

Kshatriya said:

Deathwatch is about fighting all the enemies of Man, mostly Xenos, but I'd say the VAST majority of people would find it boring to not have ANY rules for loyalist SMs fighting CSMs. I have hope that FFG will continue to expand Chaos options, and I don't think FFG needs to "finally" understand anything in doing so.

 

 

Honestly, this has become one of my big pet peeves about DW. I really can't ******* STAND it.

I mean really, the Deathwatch is supposed to ONLY fight aliens? Do they recruit only the most retarded of Space Marines, that they're going to sit around ignoring mutants, traitors, and daemons, just because they'r alien fighting specialists? And I suppose the SEALS only do missions where the enemy is on boats? Or the SAS are only sent out if they can use parachutes to get to the target?

Give me a break.
 

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Honestly, this has become one of my big pet peeves about DW. I really can't ******* STAND it.

I mean really, the Deathwatch is supposed to ONLY fight aliens? Do they recruit only the most retarded of Space Marines, that they're going to sit around ignoring mutants, traitors, and daemons, just because they'r alien fighting specialists? And I suppose the SEALS only do missions where the enemy is on boats? Or the SAS are only sent out if they can use parachutes to get to the target?

Give me a break.
 

Yes, they are supposed to only fight aliens because that was the very reason they were created for and they are chamber militant of Ordo XENOS. And no they won't ignore other threats when they encounter them. Sublime difference lie in that they won't be send to mission to fight Chaos cultists just because they are enemies of the Imperium. That is what other Chapters and forces of the Imperium are for. They will be send to misions to have anything related to Xenos threat and only when that mission is in danger they will react and stomp some Chaos. They will fight Chaos worshipping aliens because they are aliens not their religion. Is it so hard to understand?

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I understand how special operations works better than you it seems. Their primary mission is to combat the alien threat. But as part of the Imperial military hierarchy, it is not only their obligation but their duty to strike against mankind's myriad other foes. They are a military force, and not one constrained by retarded rules of engagement that tell them they can only run missions against aliens and nothing else. I mean, frankly, if we follow your judement the Deathwatch is responsible for the Jericho Reach being such a horrific mess as it is now, because they sat back and let Chaos take over, and create a huge warp-realspace overlap in the centre of the former sector. But they didn't, we know they've actively run missions against Chaos over the years, and were just stretched too thin to keep things from getting that bad.

Sometimes the other Chapters, the Imperial Guard, and whatever else, aren't around. They're too far away, or they're too busy fighting some other war, and you mean to tell me that just because the Deathwatch has a specialty they're going to ignore some guy sacrificing a planet to get daemonhood?

They're not supposed to only fight aliens, you ass. They're supposed to protect the Imperium from aliens, and woe to anything else that they happen to find in their path along the way to that. Real life special operations don't limit themselves to one field, what the hell stupid idea makes you think the Space Marines would, or should? And do you even have the slightest idea how much screaming there would have been if they hadn't put plenty of opportunity in to fight Chaos Marines. The enmity between loyalist and traitor Astartes is pretty much one of the defining characteristics of the whole game setting, it is in the underpinnings of why the galaxy is just so ****** up. And to provide a further, rl example, JTF-2 (Canadian special forces) is designated as a counter-terrorist force, but it hasn't stopped them from being deployed in Afghanistan since the very beginings of the war there, and there's nothing 'counter-terrorist' about that deployment.

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Blood Pact said:

 

…They're supposed to protect the Imperium from aliens, and woe to anything else that they happen to find in their path along the way to that…

 

 

You are making our point: the Deathwatch was created to specialize in fighting xenos. Of course they will kill any other enemies of the Emperor that get in their way, but, to maintain the theme of the Deathwatch concept, those 'other enemies' should be the exception, not the rule. This is the exact opposite of the situation in the Jericho Reach setting, where the Deathwatch, through tortured logic that exists only to pander to pimply-faced fanboys ("Chaosh ish aweshome!"), have a near-Chapter-sized preasence (?!) in a Sector which they have pledged to reclaim from Chaos… and, oh yeah, occasionally kill xenos that get in the way.

Any competant writer or GM can easily come up with excuses for a Deathwatch Killteam to have 'change-of-pace' encounters with Chaos that don't fly in the face of their position as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. For instance, they could be sent to find out where an Ork Waaagh! is getting their looted artillary from, and discover that Chaos Space Marines are giving it to the Orks to divert attention from one of their own nefarious schemes. Or they could encounter a minor xeno race that worships- and summons- daemons.

But to make a Crusade against Chaos the cornerstone of a game about elite xeno-fighters? I find that to be pure cheese, and I don't use the Jericho Reach setting for that reason.

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Lionus said:

 

Kshatriya said:

 

Also Daemon Hunter uses the awful DH psychic rules, heh.

 

 

What's so awful about the DH psychic rules? I actually like them better than the bland, flavorless WP skill check cooked up by FFG.

 

 

Overbleed gets completely broken especially with certain Disciplines.

Also it's a completely different action mechanic than anything else in the game. Pointlessly complex.

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