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Morangias said:

Still, the idea that someone new might come to this board, see AW's posts hanging there with no serious discussion, and decide that since they're not disputed, he may be right, is horrifying.

See, from my perspective you know **** well people would eat this stuff up, and for some reasons you find this horrifying. Think of all those people enjoying themselves!

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Reasonable people who like what you like are already having fun in games that are actually suited for their needs.

Unreasonable people might find this game, then this board, then your posts, and think what you're saying is great.

Then, they might start their games of Generic Space Badasses Waving Their Humongous Dicks, disguised as games of Deathwatch. Some of them may advertise their campaigns in Friendly Local Game Stores, and attract some 40k geeks.

These people would then be eaten alive by raging nerds. They would see their campaigns shatter and burn, their players leave and the very same arguments everyone is using against you screamed right in their face, at the risk of getting punched in the throat if they try to ignore them like you do ours.

IAll in all, I'm doing a public service and actually helping these people have fun the way they want it - by making it clear for them in this safe online environment that neither the system nor the lion's share of it's fanbase will be interested in their version, and that there are systems more suited to the kind of game they want.

In the end, your activity here is like trying to promote homosexual BDSM sex in Sunday school. It's not that your expectations are wrong, it's just that you're projecting them on the wrong game and the wrong crowd.

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Morangias said:

lion's share of it's fanbase

 

On what planet do you think the lions share of the Games Workshop fanbase wouldn't get excited over a red dot sight on a picatinny rail.

Have you met the Games Workshop fanbase?

As ever, we are talking about the people who buy Space Marines here!

--

Fundamentally, I think this is what makes Dan Abnett such a good 40k author. He knows precisely what his readers want to see, and has not goddam hang ups about giving it to them!

+++++In the end, your activity here is like trying to promote homosexual BDSM sex in Sunday school.+++++

See, I would have said that 40k, in this analogy, is a (gay) BDSM club. When it was new it was the most xtreme BDSM club there was. But since then, other people, working from the base 40k provided, have developed BDSM to such an extent that 40k actually looks a bit tame.

40k needs to reclaim it's place as the king of kink!

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Morangias, my man, I saw a picture that reminded me of that last statement.

 

I cant come to bed, this is important!

 

Someone is wrong on the internet!

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AluminiumWolf said:

Morangias said:

lion's share of it's fanbase

 

On what planet do you think the lions share of the Games Workshop fanbase wouldn't get excited over a red dot sight on a picatinny rail.

Have you met the Games Workshop fanbase?

As ever, we are talking about the people who buy Space Marines here!

Considering that I frequent these boards, and /tg/, for years now, I think I have a good idea at least about the vocal part of 40k.

AluminiumWolf said:

Fundamentally, I think this is what makes Dan Abnett such a good 40k author. He knows precisely what his readers want to see, and has not goddam hang ups about giving it to them!

+++++In the end, your activity here is like trying to promote homosexual BDSM sex in Sunday school.+++++

See, I would have said that 40k, in this analogy, is a (gay) BDSM club. When it was new it was the most xtreme BDSM club there was. But since then, other people, working from the base 40k provided, have developed BDSM to such an extent that 40k actually looks a bit tame.

40k needs to reclaim it's place as the king of kink!

Actually, it's exactly the opposite. 40k started pretty mellow, as a parody of tropes and cliches that were freaking everywhere at the time. Back in the days, it was cheesy, but it didn't stand out so much in the decades when everything was legally obliged to have a grim and gritty reboot.

Now, the world is sick and tired of gritty reboots, but the 40k continues, and somewhere along the line it started taking itself seriously. The setting is made of 100% 90's angst, and is the guiltiest, most self-indulgent pleasure available to geeks (beside perhaps True Blood, but it's a whole different kind of guilty pleasure). 40k is the undisputed king of it's genre, and both the fans and the authors know how and why.

Your ideas are tantamount to killing the product - you demand it change it's style, when style is literally everything it has to offer.

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AluminiumWolf said:

Morangias said:

lion's share of it's fanbase

 

On what planet do you think the lions share of the Games Workshop fanbase wouldn't get excited over a red dot sight on a picatinny rail.

Have you met the Games Workshop fanbase?

As ever, we are talking about the people who buy Space Marines here!

Again you claim to speak for everyone with no one else really showing any support. I imagine this would sound good to everyone who didn't have to replace the bolters of every model in their army or everyone who had to paint the additional bits of plastic stuck to their guns.

regarding your lengthy post on Vassili Zaitsev:

That's a great case study for a Imperial Guard sniper, see the propaganda surrounding Ciaphas Cain. They use Imperial Guardsmen for propaganda, because Space Marines are a mystery to and feared by the general populous, they Space Marines are capable of inhuman acts thus their acts of valor are usually not possible to emulate as Guardsman, Space Marines care not for fame or power and only for respect of their brothers.

Finally the technology for real-time news updates on any kind of scale is not widely available in the imperium, it seems like you are suggesting we should completely change the background so that it's possible just so that Space Marines can get legions of fans just so that they can have sex with them (none of this fits the fluff). 

This is why the propaganda they have is cited as news papers, posters and occasional low quality video all of which are distributed slowly as Astropaths are the only means of rapid communication and they aren't there just for the trivial tat that is spewed onto twitter on a daily basis.

 

 

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++++++Considering that I frequent these boards, and /tg/, for years now, I think I have a good idea at least about the vocal part of 40k.+++++

Ah well, there is the problem. When have forums ever had anything to do with anything? I mean, isn't the consensus of the internet that what GW 'needs' to do is stop making so many Space Marines and cut their prices?

+++++and is the guiltiest, most self-indulgent pleasure available to geeks (beside perhaps True Blood, but it's a whole different kind of guilty pleasure). 40k is the undisputed king of it's genre, and both the fans and the authors know how and why.+++++

1: The vampires in True Blood have a lot of sex. Just saying.

2: I dunno. If you want 'guy in a super suit' you have things like Vanquish:-

If you want big beefy bodybuilder heroes you have, well I quite like the look of 'Of Orcs and Men'

but you also get The Hulk in the Avengers, probably Darksiders etc.

If you want Military Action you have Call of Duty itself, or any of the other properties drawing from the same pot.

(I think Brink did really well with having fantasy guns with Tacticool elements:-

 )

I think 40k has always been pretty good about reinventing itself to stay current. As I see it, they currently have work to do.

--

+++++it seems like you are suggesting we should completely change the background so that it's possible just so that Space Marines can get legions of fans just so that they can have sex with them+++++

Well, the internet stuff is just there to try to keep the setting relevant in a world where everyone has a smart phone. And a lot of people don't remember life before mobile phones and the 'net. Not having a net is going to start to severely limit peoples ability to draw on their own experiences when creating for 40k.

+++++Space Marines care not for fame or power and only for respect of their brothers.+++++

To an extent, that I perceive as writing yourself in to the same corner where Marines don't do anything but fight. Which isn't ideal if they have to carry an ever expanding range of merch. It is just as possible to say that every Marine is entirely convinced of their own Awesomeness, having been selected as a Space Marine and carrying the blood of God in their veins. Their hubris can then cause conflicts and get them in to trouble. Which means story.

 

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AluminiumWolf said:

+++++Space Marines care not for fame or power and only for respect of their brothers.+++++

To an extent, that I perceive as writing yourself in to the same corner where Marines don't do anything but fight. Which isn't ideal if they have to carry an ever expanding range of merch. It is just as possible to say that every Marine is entirely convinced of their own Awesomeness, having been selected as a Space Marine and carrying the blood of God in their veins. Their hubris can then cause conflicts and get them in to trouble. Which means story.

1. I wouldn't call the "range of merch" "ever expanding". GW has been doing video games and trying to do movies for ages now, and it's obvious they're plenty comfortable with where it gets them. 40k rpg isn't very groundbreaking either, seeing as Rogue Trader was much heavier on RP and story than later incarnations of 40k.

Plus, there isn't really much space for 40k to expand. It has a good niche, and mines it to the best of GW's ability. But it wouldn't do well if it tried to become really mainstream, exactly because it would have to change it's core assumptions, and alienate it's core fans, to cater to wider tastes. The biggest GW can get without entering tricky terrain is doing more (and better) videogames.

2. Space Marines already get into lots of trouble due to their hubris. The most down to earth Chapters are one small step away from becoming insufferable, holier than thou douchebags, and some of the most prominent Chapters have long since crossed that line. Still, their hubris and their trouble is of a different nature than you expect.

3. There is literally an infinite amount of good stories you can tell about brotherhood, camaraderie, honor, glory and/or piety. Identity is built upon limitations as much as, if not even more than, on possibilities. Limitations a character suffers often make a difference between a compelling character in an interesting story and a Mary Sue in a fapfic. That's why Ward gets so much flak for his Marine codices - they crossed the line and became ascended fanwank. That's why Uriel Ventris is the greatest Ultramarine ever written, while half of the Ultrasmurfs in Fall of Damnos just make me want to turn the page in hope that there'll be more Necron Lords talking (this example is entirely arbitrary and based on my latest attempts to catch up with 40k novels, but it does get the point across).

Your cry "let's open up more stories for Space Marines" is pure code for "let's make Marines more bland, generic and uninteresting".

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Lancelot was fairly explicitly a mary sue. He was added to the stories by French authors, as a French knight who was better at everything than all the English knights and indeed stole King Arthur's girlfriend.

I think people are far more accepting of 'cool' characters than you might expect.

Given that everybody hates everything on the internet, how can you actually tell if no one likes Mr. Wards codexes?

+++++There is literally an infinite amount of good stories you can tell about brotherhood, camaraderie, honor, glory and/or piety+++++

I dunno. If that were true, why do they have so much trouble writing interesting stories for Space Marines.

I mean, I love Marines, but I spend much of the books thinking that this would be way cooler if it was more like Arthurian or Greek myth. Or fricking Footballers Wives. When The Great British Bake Off has more compelling characters than your novel something has gone drastically wrong!

Seriously, read The Once And Future King, and the Illiad, and then come back and tell me if you would genuinely rather read a Space Marine novel if they were not supersoldiers in the dark future with cool suits and guns and whatnot.

--

Precisely how much more mainstream can you get than Games Workshop? They are the biggest thing in tabletop gaming!

40k isn't some niche product that a handful of people enjoy. It is a living, breathing entertainment property that needs to stay relevant to todays gamers. And anyway, Everyone Knows that GW relies on attracting new consumers to sustain itself, so worries about alienating the core would be horseshit even if the core wouldn't lap up Awesome Marines. Seriously guy, what makes you think GW fans are any different from their video game and blockbuster movie bretheren? No one like Warhammer because 'mainstream' entertainment is too over the top.

--

At some point in the last decade I stopped wanting video games of my favourite tabletop characters, and started wanting minis of my favourite video game characters. Tabletop isn't the driving force of what is cool any more. And I think that is a shame.

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 I know I said I wasn't gonna post in this thread anymore, but I have one thing to say: most people who have actually read the texts agree that Lancelot was kind of an insufferable ******, precisely because of the qualities you described.

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 Apparently he played well in France…

Anyway, I don't think there is anything to be gained by being scared of creating a cool character. James Bond, Conan, Dante from Devil May Cry… all created by people not to worried that people will think less of then for imagining cool characters.

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AluminiumWolf said:

Anyway, I don't think there is anything to be gained by being scared of creating a cool character. James Bond, Conan, Dante from Devil May Cry… all created by people not to worried that people will think less of then for imagining cool characters.

 

"Cool" is relative. What I think is cool, other people may laugh upon.

Also the setting already has plenty of cool characters. They are just not "your" cool. The thing is, though, that with your changes, the fluff may be just a hodgepodge of "what everyone thinks may be cool" (not that it isn't already, but if you go over the top, you may get a vomit instead of a good setting).

Either accept the setting for what it is, or go find another one. Alternatively, create one yourself from what you think is cool.

 

But for heavens' sake, let the 40k be. It suffers from Ward's Curse already and there is no reason to let it suffer more.

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+++++Also the setting already has plenty of cool characters.+++++

I agree. I just don't think we should be to worried about accidentally creating characters as cool as some of the special characters in the codices, for intance.

+++++The thing is, though, that with your changes, the fluff may be just a hodgepodge of "what everyone thinks may be cool"+++++

40k was surely assembled out of a parts bin of cool stuff. Dune, Nemesis the Warlock, Tolkein Fantasy, Michael Moorcock etc. 40k doesn't borrow from other settings. 40k follows other settings down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose Awesome.

And most of what I suggest is already present.

Pretty much everyone who draws Space Marines draws them Big:-

a_human_moment_by_anarkyman-d1v4kjl.jpg

The fluff more or less already assumes that Marines are orders of magnitude more awesome than their tabletop stats shows.

And really, to give them sex lives all you need is one Ciaphas Cain style expose exposing the dark rituals that surround the secretive Astartes chapters. (Secretive when they are not on twitter natch).

Okay maybe not the Tacticool per se, but I think that is a viable option once you accept that Marines are supposed to be world class badasses fully able to go toe to toe with other properties coolest characters, rather than some kind of quaint throw back to a time before video games.

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Space Marine minis on the table top are smaller than their realistic scale because to make them bigger would make them more expensive. As is, you would need a 40mm base for a regular space marine and something in between a 60mm and a 40mm for any terminator minis.

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AluminiumWolf said:

+++++The thing is, though, that with your changes, the fluff may be just a hodgepodge of "what everyone thinks may be cool"+++++

40k was surely assembled out of a parts bin of cool stuff. Dune, Nemesis the Warlock, Tolkein Fantasy, Michael Moorcock etc. 40k doesn't borrow from other settings. 40k follows other settings down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose Awesome.

 

Please at least read my posts properly:

klaymen_sk said:

…the fluff may be just a hodgepodge of "what everyone thinks may be cool" (not that it isn't already, but if you go over the top, you may get a vomit instead of a good setting).

 

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klaymen_sk said:

Please at least read my posts properly:

klaymen_sk said:

…the fluff may be just a hodgepodge of "what everyone thinks may be cool" (not that it isn't already, but if you go over the top, you may get a vomit instead of a good setting).

 

 

Thats… ah, er…

 

 

 

 

****.

--

Still I don't think the setting should stop stealing stuff now, especially since a lot of the stuff is directly derived from warhammer anyway.

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Actually the problem with the minis is that everything else is too big. Space Marines are actually quite well proportioned for the scale, its just the other lines are the same size and consequently are far too big.

Anyway, that picture quite clearly shows a hive world. Poor die and a life of hard drudgery could easily explain why that woman is about 4' 8". Oh, and she should be crapping herself silly. Space Marines are the Emperor's Angels of Death. Yes, you may be glad to see the xenos scum who invaded your planet brutally murdered, but you should also be very, very glad that they aren't looking at you. They should be figures that inspire awe and dread, not "Oh, look at his bright colourful armour dear! Why don't you see if he will give you a ride on his shoulders?"

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 That actually reminds me of a… I think it was a comic, but it might've been a prose story. It's set on an agri-world. The people know the stories of the Emperor's Angels, the Space Marines. One day, the planet is attacked by an Ork Waaagh! and the Black Templars are dispatched to deal with it. The story glosses over the majority of the battle itself, instead focusing on the reaction of the people to the Marines. They're terrified. These giants in armor just mowing down monsters that had demolished the PDF. The story closes with the people praying to the Emperor in thanks for their salvation, but also that they would never have to see the Angels of Death again.

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It depends on who comes to their aid. Salamanders or Raven Guard actually help the citizens (mainly the RG who go long way to help evacuate all the civilians, for example). Ultramarines are fair rulers of their system, so they may not be a bad choice. Also Space Wolves may tear you a new one if you suggest hurting civilians. Those may not inspire such awe in the people.

 

But ultimately it depends on which chapters are actually nearby to help.

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 The space marines in that story didn't mistreat the civilians in any way, it was simply the sight of Astartes doing battle was completely terrifying to the humans watching. I think there is a Dan Abnett novel which mentions "post human shock" which some troops suffer from after seeing space marines fight. Evidently they are very frightening to watch…

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The Horus Heresy novels make it quite clear as well.

A Space Marine's 'natural' abilities combine to turn them in to a literal killing machine, and when faced with ordinary humans, the results will be absolute carnage. It's not out of any sadistic intent (for loyalists anyway) it's simply the ruthless application of what they were created to do to the Imperium's enemies.

One or the things I often like reading described is how they move. How something that big, and wearing armour that heavy, just shouldn't be able to move with as much speed and agility as they do. That they aren't just strong enough, but quick enough, fight ten men and kill them all relatively effortlessly.

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But back to the point about 5 posts ago regardless of how scary it is to face your own fragile mortality as a soldier watching them fight to general populous they are the stuff of myth and legends.

We know what implants they have and the heraldry of a number of chapters but your average citizen knows none of these things, knows nothing about the difference between the chapters or their abilities. To them they are as likely to have heard that they can kill with a look, breath fire, fart poison or some such. So they are give them a wide birth.

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Gaire said:

That actually reminds me of a… I think it was a comic, but it might've been a prose story. It's set on an agri-world. The people know the stories of the Emperor's Angels, the Space Marines. One day, the planet is attacked by an Ork Waaagh! and the Black Templars are dispatched to deal with it. The story glosses over the majority of the battle itself, instead focusing on the reaction of the people to the Marines. They're terrified. These giants in armor just mowing down monsters that had demolished the PDF. The story closes with the people praying to the Emperor in thanks for their salvation, but also that they would never have to see the Angels of Death again.

See, this is what Marines look like to people on the outside. 

But for a Marine roleplaying game (and Marine focused novels etc.) most of the time we are going to be on the inside.

Er, slike how to most of the Imperium Inquisitors are legendary figures who swoop in from nowhere to dispense terror/enact the Emperors will. 

But those on the inside know that there is a constant war being fought between Inquisitors over what is best for the Imperium. There are factions and politics and secret battles that the average citizen doesn't see. That Inquisitors themselves have distinct personalities and ways of doing things.

So, we would want the same for Marines. Even if they look like impassive Angels of Death to the casual observer, amongst themselves and their peers they have a lot to talk about and want and politic about and disagree to the point of shooting each other over.

(Generally, I think it is safer to er on this side of personality. If you write someone as looking like a personality free killing machine, people seem to assume that is what they are. Where as if they were fighting their battles on twitter, there could be no argument that they think for themselves.)

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Damnit…

 

 

Spoilers…

 

 

Spoilers…

 

 

Spoilers…

 

 

In Fear to Tread there's a Remembrancer who wants approaches a heroic Blood Angel Apothecary, wanting to make a regular comic about him and his exploits. Because he survived a mortal wound while rescueing a dozen people.

The Space Marine, naturally, doesn't get all hyped up on it, and start thinking about his fans, and the attention of amourous females. He's pretty humble, and even finds it a little odd. But lets him go ahead and make it. I still have much more of the book to read, though.

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