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Tacticool

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AluminiumWolf said:

But that looks like Robocop - walking slowly forwards with bullets pinging off your armour while picking off targets with well placed shots! You are going to have to explain why they are doing this and why it makes them awesome, and in a visual medium you won't have a chance.

…are you trying to tell me that you didn't think Robocop looked awesome?

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 I'm with Ventris on this one. Also, there's the intimidation factor. What's going to scare you more, a giant in armor with a fully-automatic micro-rocket launcher who's moving tactically, taking cover behind stuff and taking the time to line up his shots, or that same giant idly striding toward you, your shots glancing off and doing literally nothing to impede his movement, and not even looking when he points his gun off to the side and blows off your buddy's head? My personal disdain for Costa's method aside, I don't think Marines need that. Now, if they're going up against tanks or heavy weapons emplacements, sure, cover is essential. But then again, I don't think Costa would be pulling the same moves against a tank.

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+++++I wasn't very happy with that scene, it looked too much like two old guys beating each other up with sticks.+++++

How would you stage it differently though?

 (and even the gurning is optional)

+++++3. In case of anti-armor weapons, of course they will evade and seek cover. But that's distinctly different from keeping a low profile all the time. Also, they never really have to stabilize their aim.+++++

I would argue that they could never know if the enemy has heavy weapons (and indeed the enemy will have heavy weapons most of the time) and so will have to operate as if they do.

+++++How about just like it's already shown in Ultramarines movie and games Space Marine and Kill Team?+++++

I guess I just think if you took motion capture data from:-

and used it with Marine models, you would end up with something that looks cooler than:-

+++++…are you trying to tell me that you didn't think Robocop looked awesome?+++++

Ah, dude, all he does is stand there and let bullets ping off his armour. That's no where near as cool as Tacticool!

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Gaire said:

What's going to scare you more, a giant in armor with a fully-automatic micro-rocket launcher who's moving tactically, taking cover behind stuff and taking the time to line up his shots, or that same giant idly striding toward you, your shots glancing off and doing literally nothing to impede his movement, and not even looking when he points his gun off to the side and blows off your buddy's head?

What is more scary? A zombie lumbering slowly towards you giving you time to line up headshots or an Aliens Xenomorph that moves faster than you can follow?

Slow and lumbering is never awesome.

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 No one is saying that Marines are slow! The whole point is that they're strong, durable, and fast. Comparing a Marine that moves without taking cover to a zombie that's shambling toward you is like comparing a cheetah to a glacier. It's wrong, it's dumb, and it wastes our time.

EDIT: Moreover, XENOMORPHS DON'T USE COVER IN COMBAT.

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+++++No one is saying that Marines are slow!+++++

Then show them running, doing parkour, moving fast!

Not walking slowly towards the enemy letting gunfire ping off their armour!

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 Poor choice of words on my part. Should've used advancing instead of idly striding. That said, I don't think Marines are slow, but nor do I think they should use traditional tactical movement. They'd have their own completely unique way of moving through a battlefield since, y'know, they're not really human any more. They wouldn't need to take cover like us squishy humans, they wouldn't need to line up shots quite the same way, and they sure as hell wouldn't practice gun kata- sorry, completely unrelated, but I watched Equilibrium the other night.

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 I'd like to see Marines running full out - presumably in their armour they can maintain a pace that would leave Usain Bolt in the dust over long distances, and nothing is going to slow them down:-

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 …Agreed. Although I don't think Marines would be jumping and ducking the branches. Just barreling right through.

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On the Lords of the Rings point, its probably important to note that "Maiar" which is Demigods, of which both Saruman and Gandalf were, used up their "essence" to perform magical feats, which is why they almost never did anything magical, and mostly used others to get stuff done.

 

So, beating each other with words and sticks is fairly accurate to the books.

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AluminiumWolf said:

I guess I just think if you took motion capture data from:-

and used it with Marine models, you would end up with something that looks cooler than:-

+++++…are you trying to tell me that you didn't think Robocop looked awesome?+++++

Ah, dude, all he does is stand there and let bullets ping off his armour. That's no where near as cool as Tacticool!

Hi All, thought I'd jsut butt in on this pointless argument.

Kudos for finding some appropriate youtube clips, but if you are stooping and jumping into cover against an enemy that is entirely melee based you are basically just letting them hit your head easier and if you need to aim down gun-sights to hit an Ork at 15 feet then you have not place in the Space Marines.

It's still worth remembering that Costa's isn't wearing power armour, neither is he likely to put on a suit of fake power armour for motion capture purposes so half of what he's doing just isn't going to work.

Likewise they might be capable of Parkour but much of the scenary isn't capable of supporting a half ton of SM in armour.

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+++++Kudos for finding some appropriate youtube clips, but if you are stooping and jumping into cover against an enemy that is entirely melee based you are basically just letting them hit your head easier+++++

Like I say though in close combat they drop their bolters to their tactical slings, unsheath their chainswords and fight like John Clements:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmoSedeqrHo

+++++It's still worth remembering that Costa's isn't wearing power armour, neither is he likely to put on a suit of fake power armour for motion capture purposes so half of what he's doing just isn't going to work.+++++

They use performance capture for Kong in King Kong and the Na'vi in Avatar so I don't see that as a problem! ( 

 )

(Hmm. That is probably the most peripheral argument I have made recently. In what possible parallel universe could it matter if Chris Costa could provide performance capture for Space Marines?

.

 

.

 

..

 

He totally could though :-) )

+++++Likewise they might be capable of Parkour but much of the scenery isn't capable of supporting a half ton of SM in armour.+++++

Imperial architecture is tough! Big blocks of permacrete, massively overengineered flying buttresses, enormous gothic gargoyles. Ideal for Marine Parkour!

And anything that they can't vault over they can run through.

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CaptainStabby said:

There's a specific reason Relic didnt put a cover system in Space Marine…. Just sayin. (and GW approved it)

I really liked Space Marine, but I can't say I wouldn't have liked it more if it had a cover system.

(I' ve played through it several times. On hard even. And I played multiplayer for a bit until it became apparent I wasn't very good.)

It also didn't sell very well compared to, for instance,

videogamestate.jpg

On the one hand, this stuff is everywhere. On the other hand, it is everywhere because it is really, really cool. Really cool.

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Look Wolf, by this point you clearly don't know **** about firearms or the people who like to collect them, considering that Chris Costa and video games seem to be the sole sources of knowledge on the subject.

The tacticool people, the "cawadooty" kids, are just one group among many who enjoy owning firearms. Sure other folks like red-dot sites and all, but they don't go all **** crazy slapping on every stupid toy they can on to their firearm, or jumping and rolling around like the people on those tactical videos. The military doesn't bother with that **** most of the time either, because soldiers tend to be too loaded down with equipment for one thing.

And yeah, that picture you posted right now, that highlights "what everything thinks is cool", is one of the common examples of how video games suck more and more, because they're all just recycling the same crap at this point. Have you ever listened to a pair of idiots argue if Call of Duty or Battlefield is better? They're practically the same **** game!

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I guess, look, is your problem really that you don't think this stuff is cool, or that you don't want people to think you are the kind of person who thinks this stuff is cool?

Because I assure you, being British I already think socialised healthcare is a good idea and anyone who owns a gun is Anders Behring Breivik.

Fundamentally, you are not winning any points by pretending you don't like this stuff (and it is worth mentioning that I guess I think anyone who doesn't like this stuff is DEAD FROM THE MAN DOWN, so…) so you may as well embrace it and have some fun.

(And indeed, there is always the strong temptation to assume that anyone who spends quite so much time decrying the evils of The Gay is probably a closet homosexual. Which is like being gay only it comes with added shame and less living your life the way you would like to.)

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I must say, this is the first time I've heard the word "tacticool" used with any form of positive connotation.  Most of the time, its used to describe weekend warriors more obsessed with tricking out their weapons than developing the skills necessary to use them with any degree of proficiency.  Any assertion that everyone finds such gadgetry as "cool", an inherently subjective descriptor if there ever was one, is overreaching at the very least.

 

I imagine that a Space Marine tends towards the most efficient means of destroying his enemies.  Add in a strong respect for tradition, an almost religious devotion to ancient and well-respected wargear, and an entire, star-spanning organization of gunsmiths that look upon innovation with a wary eye, and you have an atmosphere that doesn't seem conducive to slapping on the newest gadget-of-week to your favorite bolter, which has been slaying heretics and xenos for literally centuries just fine, thank-you-very-much.

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Vergaul said:

I must say, this is the first time I've heard the word "tacticool" used with any form of positive connotation.  Most of the time, its used to describe weekend warriors more obsessed with tricking out their weapons than developing the skills necessary to use them with any degree of proficiency.  Any assertion that everyone finds such gadgetry as "cool", an inherently subjective descriptor if there ever was one, is overreaching at the very least.

 

I guess what I am getting at is that the difference between 'weekend warrior' and 'tasteful gun owner' is going to be entirely opaque to anyone looking in, so if you are concerned that people will associate you with the wrong sort of gun owner you may as well not worry about it because they already do.

(I feel the same way about Space Marines in general - no one is going to give you points for liking Space Marines, but only sensible Space Marines that are not too awesome, so if that is what is holding you back from really embracing the awesomeness of Space Marines you may as well lighten up and enjoy it.)

And if you have ever even so much as thought a red dot sight looks nifty, you are guilty of tacticool whether you want to admit it or not. :-)

--

I mean, how can you not think this is awesome:-

The bit where he flips the gun on to its secondary bipod in order to use the backup optics is wonderful.

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 Aluminumwolf, responding to those that aren't huge fans of tacticool with some variation of:

 

"Everyone loves tacticool!"

 

and

 

"If you don't like tacticool, you are lying to try and avoid social stigma!"

 

is not what I would call a reasoned and logical argument.  I mean, really?  Social stigma?  On an anonymous internet forum?

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+++++I mean, really?  Social stigma?  On an anonymous internet forum?+++++

I know rite? But I'd still swear that peoples arguments are less about the Tacticool itself than the kind of people who like Tacticool.

--

I am using a fairly wide definition of Tacticool. For instance this:-

is totally Tacticool.

 

 

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Vergaul said:

 Aluminumwolf, responding to those that aren't huge fans of tacticool with some variation of:

 

"Everyone loves tacticool!"

 

and

 

"If you don't like tacticool, you are lying to try and avoid social stigma!"

 

is not what I would call a reasoned and logical argument.  I mean, really?  Social stigma?  On an anonymous internet forum?

 

I think most of us have just taken to writing off Aluminumwolf's ramblings as static.

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Bah! I remain convinced that if you started writing Marines as nine foot tall hulk clone of quite remarkable badassosity who totally get erections and who run across fields like

 

most of the fen would lap it up, and the ones who wouldn't probably play Guard anyway. So **** those guys.

And everyone knows it!

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I think marines are *******, and I don't play Guard.

They can't get erections, have silly shoulder pads that have their own shoulder pads, don't know what makes their guns work and pray to little spirits inside their guns, I mean how much more foolish can they be?

Nah, no matter what they did, I'd never like Marines.

Now Eldar. They are cool. They'll even use cover, and feth your women. In fact, depending on type, they may put a slave collar on your woman and feth her for years. Now thats badass.

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Seeten said:

 

I think marines are *******, and I don't play Guard.

They can't get erections, have silly shoulder pads that have their own shoulder pads, don't know what makes their guns work and pray to little spirits inside their guns, I mean how much more foolish can they be?

Nah, no matter what they did, I'd never like Marines.

Now Eldar. They are cool. They'll even use cover, and feth your women. In fact, depending on type, they may put a slave collar on your woman and feth her for years. Now thats badass.

 

 

Dude, I spend most of my time convinced I am arguing with people who don't actually WANT Marines to be cool (probably because they are Eldar/Guard/frigging TAU! fanboys).

Don't feed my paranoia!

:-)

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 Dude, trying to have a debate with you is like arguing with a three year old. You're just plugging your ears and saying "Nuh-uh nuh-uh nuh-uh!" So y'know what? I give up. You think Astartes would look cool pulling all this "tacticool" stuff. (Oh, and by the way, Vergaul is right. The term "tacticool" has a negative connotation of tryhards who slap every overpriced piece of "tactical" gear onto a weapon thinking that their piece will make up for their small piece, if you catch my drift. Case in point, a semiautomatic pistol with a scope, a silencer, a laser sight, a flashlight, a stock, and a BIPOD. I have seen this weapon.) I disagree, rather vehemently. So… yeah. You have fun with your Marines, I'll have fun with mine.

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