FOS rules questions - OFFICIAL ANSWERS

[jjeagle 48]

I sent the following FOS rules questions to FFG and have received a reply:

> 1. If a hero is attached to a Nameless Thing at game end, is it counted as "dead" for scoring purposes?
>
> 2. When players are separated on stage 4, does each player count as both first and last player?
>
> 3. When players are separated on stage 4, do uniqueness rules still apply? (eg can both players play Steward of Gondor, because you act as if "only the player(s) that share any given staging area are currently present in the game"?)
>
> 4. When players are separated on stage 4, presumably if one player controls Elrohir and another controls Elladan, they lose their bonuses for the same reason?
>
> 5. If a player is eliminated while separated on stage 4, what happens to encounter cards i n his staging area/engaged with him?
>
> 6. Is a hero shuffled into deck by Lost and Alone considered to be "dead" for scoring purposes, or for the purpose of eliminating a player if that is his last hero?

Caleb Grace replied as follows:

1. Once a hero is dead, it counts as dead for scoring unless a card effect brings it back into play as a hero card. If a hero becomes attached to a Nameless Thing, it has not been brought back into play as a hero.
2. Yes. You are considered to be the only player in the game while you are at your own separate stage 4.
3. Technically, you could make an argument that they do not apply. However, the intention of the rules was directed at resolving encounter cards and player card interaction (i.e. playing an event to heal my partner's characters); it was not meant to circumvent the uniqueness rule. Furthermore, once players are rejoined it creates a problem with multiple copies of unique characters in play (or thematically the idea of Faramir being in 2 places at once), so I would rule the uniqueness rule does still apply, and I will see about updating the FAQ to include this clarification.
4. When I update the FAQ it will probably state that while separated players ignore other player cards "except for uniqueness" meaning that Elladan and Elrohir would lose their boosts until rejoined.
5. If a player is eliminated at stage 4, that staging area is eliminated as well. The encounter cards would simply be discarded.
6. A hero shuffled back into the deck is not dead unless the effect that shuffled him in the deck says he is dead. If that was your last hero in play, however, you would be eliminated from the game at that time.

The answers to 2,3,4,5 are as I expected.

The answers to 1 and 6 seem slightly contradictory as (6) states that the Lost and Alone hero is not dead, but (1) seems to imply that he is.

[mason240 1]

 Cool, I will put that information up on the scenario page at lotrlcg.com.

 

 

[plueschi2 0]

mason240 said:

 Cool, I will put that information up on the scenario page at lotrlcg.com.

 

 

I like your site, especially the average encounter stats. But the numbers seem to be off, for example average location threat in Passage through Mirkwood should be 2 not 1.5. Or am I missing something?

And it appears to be on more instances than this.

[mason240 1]

plueschi said:

 

 to be off, for example average location threat in Passage through Mirkwood should be 2 not 1.5. Or am I missing something?

And it appears to be on more instances than this.

 

 

Yes, it should be 1.84. I'm looking at the function that generated those numbers now. 

EDIT: Found the problem. I was passing the total number of enemy cards in scenario in, not the total number of locations. I'm running it again to correct everything.

[plueschi2 0]

Hmm, might be my math skills are rusty, but shouldn't it be a straight 2?

 

All locations have a value of 2, expect Old Forest Road at 1 (x2) and Necromancers Pass at 3 (x2). Ends up being a flat 2 in my mind.

[mason240 1]

Yes, I had Necromancer's Pass in at 2 threat, not 3, so that throws it off.

It's good thing I never aspired to do data entry. 

[jjeagle 48]

jjeagle said:

 

I sent the following FOS rules questions to FFG and have received a reply:

> 1. If a hero is attached to a Nameless Thing at game end, is it counted as "dead" for scoring purposes?
>
> 2. When players are separated on stage 4, does each player count as both first and last player?
>
> 3. When players are separated on stage 4, do uniqueness rules still apply? (eg can both players play Steward of Gondor, because you act as if "only the player(s) that share any given staging area are currently present in the game"?)
>
> 4. When players are separated on stage 4, presumably if one player controls Elrohir and another controls Elladan, they lose their bonuses for the same reason?
>
> 5. If a player is eliminated while separated on stage 4, what happens to encounter cards i n his staging area/engaged with him?
>
> 6. Is a hero shuffled into deck by Lost and Alone considered to be "dead" for scoring purposes, or for the purpose of eliminating a player if that is his last hero?

Caleb Grace replied as follows:

1. Once a hero is dead, it counts as dead for scoring unless a card effect brings it back into play as a hero card. If a hero becomes attached to a Nameless Thing, it has not been brought back into play as a hero.
2. Yes. You are considered to be the only player in the game while you are at your own separate stage 4.
3. Technically, you could make an argument that they do not apply. However, the intention of the rules was directed at resolving encounter cards and player card interaction (i.e. playing an event to heal my partner's characters); it was not meant to circumvent the uniqueness rule. Furthermore, once players are rejoined it creates a problem with multiple copies of unique characters in play (or thematically the idea of Faramir being in 2 places at once), so I would rule the uniqueness rule does still apply, and I will see about updating the FAQ to include this clarification.
4. When I update the FAQ it will probably state that while separated players ignore other player cards "except for uniqueness" meaning that Elladan and Elrohir would lose their boosts until rejoined.
5. If a player is eliminated at stage 4, that staging area is eliminated as well. The encounter cards would simply be discarded.
6. A hero shuffled back into the deck is not dead unless the effect that shuffled him in the deck says he is dead. If that was your last hero in play, however, you would be eliminated from the game at that time.

The answers to 2,3,4,5 are as I expected.

The answers to 1 and 6 seem slightly contradictory as (6) states that the Lost and Alone hero is not dead, but (1) seems to imply that he is.

 

 

I have some follow-up Q&A that clarify a couple of points further:

My questions:

 

1. When separated on stage 4 in multi-player, as you say each player counts as first and last player. But would you still pass the first player token back and forth in the refresh phase, even though this will have no in-game effect until the players are reunited?

 

2. I am a little unclear about your answers to my questions (1) and (6) - is a hero considered to be dead once he has been reshuffled into the deck, or not?

3. A separate question - the situation where Forest Snare has been attached to a Nameless Thing as a result of the action on Nameless Thing. I can't see any reason why the effect of Forest Snare ("Attached enemy cannot attack") would not apply in this situation. However, this seems a little silly. I suspect that what is needed is a ruling that cards attached to Nameless Thing by its effect are treated as if they are blank for all other purposes apart from their printed cost.

 

Caleb's answers:

1. You still pass the first player token. The rules specifically address this point.
2. Under the heading "Hit Points and Damage" the rulebook explains that hero cards in the discard pile are not shuffled back into the deck or returned to hand by card effects, unless they specifically target hero cards in the discard pile. So, once a hero has been killed, it is considered dead until you play a card that specifically returns that hero to play.
3. I like this question a lot because I think it's the beauty of card games when something unintended and fortuitous like this happens. There is absolutely no reason why a Nameless Thing that attaches a Forest Snare to itself should ignore the text on that Forest Snare. In other words, if you top-deck a Forest Snare with the Nameless Thing's text, then it cannot attack. I would laugh out loud in a game where that happened!

My further questions:

I think we got our wires crossed regarding my question (2) - my questions are:

(a) a hero who has been shuffled into the deck by Lost and Alone - is he considered "dead" for scoring purposes if he is still in the deck at game end? (I think your answer is "no")

(b) a hero who has been shuffled into the deck by Lost and Alone and has then become attached to a Nameless Thing, and is still attached to a NT at game end - is he "dead" for scoring purposes? (again, I think your answer is "no")

Also, regarding the Forest Snare situation - I understand your ruling, but doesn't this open up a number of potential even weirder situations. For instance, if Gleowine has become attached to a Nameless Thing, what rule stops me from exhausting Gleowine to draw a card? He is in play, and I still control him…

Caleb's answers to these:

A & B - I think we understand each other now.
The difference between Forest Snare and Gleowine is that the Forest Snare is an Attachment. When attached to a legal target, it applies its text. Because Gleowine is an Ally, you can only use his ability when he is in play, in front of you. Obviously, if a Feint is attached to Nameless Thing, you can't pay 1 and discard it to prevent the Nameless Thing from attacking you. Nor can you exhaust Gleowine to draw a card. But the Forest Snare is different: because there is no way of distinguishing a Forest Snare that you played on a Nameless Thing versus one that was top-decked by it's Forced effect it has to work this way.

Apologies for posting this at length but I know many people prefer to see the full answers rather than a summary.

[jjeagle 48]

So to summarise all this:

1. When players are separated, each player is his own first and last player, but the first player token is still passed in the refresh phase as per the rules.

2. Separated players ignore "global" boosts on each others' cards (Dain, Elladan/Elrohir etc), but uniqueness still applies (this is effectively an erratum but obviously a sensible one).

3. The staging area and engaged cards of an eliminated separated player are eliminated too, the encounter cards being discarded.

4. A hero who has been shuffled into the deck by Lost and Alone, and is either (a) still in the deck or (b) attached to a Nameless Thing at game end is NOT considered dead for scoring.

5. If a player's last hero is shuffled by Lost and Alone, that player is eliminated (even though his hero has not died - again this is an erratum in my opinion).

6. Forest Snare operates when attached to a Nameless Thing by its own effect, but other card types will not.

 

[Angus Lee 24]

jjeagle said:

So to summarise all this:

…

4. A hero who has been shuffled into the deck by Lost and Alone, and is either (a) still in the deck or (b) attached to a Nameless Thing at game end is NOT considered dead for scoring.

…

6. Forest Snare operates when attached to a Nameless Thing by its own effect, but other card types will not.

 

Ruling no. 4a seems to be in direct conflict with Nate French's previous ruling, that a hero not in play at the end of the game should be considered dead for the scoring purpose.

Regarding ruling no. 6, how about the "global" boosts?  For example, if Elladan is shuffled into the deck by Lost and Alone and then attached to the Nameless Thing, does Elrohir get back the +1 bonus?

[jjeagle 48]

I agree that this latter point isn't clear, but I think that Caleb's reasoning would run as follows: the global boosts on Elladan/Elrohir/Dain etc would only be in effect when that card is in play *as a hero*, not in any other situation (eg in play as an attachment).

[HilariousPete 4]

jjeagle said:

So to summarise all this:

1. When players are separated, each player is his own first and last player, but the first player token is still passed in the refresh phase as per the rules.

2. Separated players ignore "global" boosts on each others' cards (Dain, Elladan/Elrohir etc), but uniqueness still applies (this is effectively an erratum but obviously a sensible one).

3. The staging area and engaged cards of an eliminated separated player are eliminated too, the encounter cards being discarded.

4. A hero who has been shuffled into the deck by Lost and Alone, and is either (a) still in the deck or (b) attached to a Nameless Thing at game end is NOT considered dead for scoring.

5. If a player's last hero is shuffled by Lost and Alone, that player is eliminated (even though his hero has not died - again this is an erratum in my opinion).

6. Forest Snare operates when attached to a Nameless Thing by its own effect, but other card types will not. 

Thanks to you (and Rashley from the other thread) for sharing your info!

I'm not happy with all of the rulings (I can't really find any logic reasoning why an attached Forest Snare's text box is valid, but Bilbo's is not, since attaching a card only adds the card type attachment to it, but doesn't remove anything - except for an erratum of course; or that the rules sheet speaks about separate staging areas but FFG meant separate games actually), but the designers have spoken.

And Caleb indicated an upcoming FAQ update somwhere - which is really good and necessary, since the last update has been quite a while ago!

[leptokurt 242]

jjeagle said:

I agree that this latter point isn't clear, but I think that Caleb's reasoning would run as follows: the global boosts on Elladan/Elrohir/Dain etc would only be in effect when that card is in play *as a hero*, not in any other situation (eg in play as an attachment).

That's how I see it, too. Everything that isn't an attachment looses its effects.

[Stenun 6]

So an Attachment applies it's text to a Nameless Enemy even if grabbed by the Nameless Enemy's Forced text ONLY if that Attachment can legally play on an enemy, yes?

 

So you can't use the text of Asfaloth if it's on a Nameless Enemy?  Asfaloth plays on a Hero but its text after that only refers to exhausting Asfaloth, nothing about whatever card it's attached to.  But even so, you can't use it if it's on a Nameless Enemy, yes?

 

"Asfaloth

"Attach to a Noldor or Silvan Hero.

"Action:  Exhaust Asfaloth to place 1 progress token on any location.  (2 tokens instead if attached hero is Glorfindel.)"

 

I'm not sure I like this ruling as I don't see how it can be justified that the text of Forest Snare applies but not the text of a character that has some "when it enters play" text. 

For example, Snowbourn Scout.  "Response:  After Snowbourn Scout enters play, choose a location.  Place 1 progress token on that location."

If you can argue that Forest Snare applies it's text for free, why can't Snowbourn Scout?

[leptokurt 242]

Stenun said:

So an Attachment applies it's text to a Nameless Enemy even if grabbed by the Nameless Enemy's Forced text ONLY if that Attachment can legally play on an enemy, yes?

 

So you can't use the text of Asfaloth if it's on a Nameless Enemy?  Asfaloth plays on a Hero but its text after that only refers to exhausting Asfaloth, nothing about whatever card it's attached to.  But even so, you can't use it if it's on a Nameless Enemy, yes?

 

"Asfaloth

"Attach to a Noldor or Silvan Hero.

"Action:  Exhaust Asfaloth to place 1 progress token on any location.  (2 tokens instead if attached hero is Glorfindel.)"

 

I'm not sure I like this ruling as I don't see how it can be justified that the text of Forest Snare applies but not the text of a character that has some "when it enters play" text. 

For example, Snowbourn Scout.  "Response:  After Snowbourn Scout enters play, choose a location.  Place 1 progress token on that location."

If you can argue that Forest Snare applies it's text for free, why can't Snowbourn Scout?

Because Forest Snare says "Attach to an enemy engaged with a player. Attached enemy cannot attack." All these conditions are fullfilled when it's attached to a Nameless Thing. Asfaloth, however, only works when it is attached to a hero. Like Ancient Mathom only works when it is attached to a location - and you certainly would agree that Ancient Mathom has no effect when attached to Nameless Thing? The same apllies to Asfaloth - its action can only be triggered when it is attached to a hero.

[Stenun 6]

leptokurt said:

Stenun said:

 

So an Attachment applies it's text to a Nameless Enemy even if grabbed by the Nameless Enemy's Forced text ONLY if that Attachment can legally play on an enemy, yes?

 

So you can't use the text of Asfaloth if it's on a Nameless Enemy?  Asfaloth plays on a Hero but its text after that only refers to exhausting Asfaloth, nothing about whatever card it's attached to.  But even so, you can't use it if it's on a Nameless Enemy, yes?

 

"Asfaloth

"Attach to a Noldor or Silvan Hero.

"Action:  Exhaust Asfaloth to place 1 progress token on any location.  (2 tokens instead if attached hero is Glorfindel.)"

 

I'm not sure I like this ruling as I don't see how it can be justified that the text of Forest Snare applies but not the text of a character that has some "when it enters play" text. 

For example, Snowbourn Scout.  "Response:  After Snowbourn Scout enters play, choose a location.  Place 1 progress token on that location."

If you can argue that Forest Snare applies it's text for free, why can't Snowbourn Scout?

 

 

Because Forest Snare says "Attach to an enemy engaged with a player. Attached enemy cannot attack." All these conditions are fullfilled when it's attached to a Nameless Thing. Asfaloth, however, only works when it is attached to a hero. Like Ancient Mathom only works when it is attached to a location - and you certainly would agree that Ancient Mathom has no effect when attached to Nameless Thing? The same apllies to Asfaloth - its action can only be triggered when it is attached to a hero.

 

*nods*  Yes, I know, that's what I was checking on.

Although I point out that I specifically didn't mention Ancient Mathom because it refers to "attached location" and therefore obviously would have no effect on a Nameless Enemy.  But the text of Asfaloth tells you what to attach it to but then after that doesn't care.

[sangohan357 0]

 Hi there,

First, please forgive me for my english : I'm french.

I've just read the last FAQ and I have still questions unanswered.

1) If all your heroes are lost, what would happen when you decide to let an attack without defense ?

2) If you put a card with a cost of X under a "Nameless Thing" how do you count it ? 0 ? 10 in roman numbers ;-) ?

Again, please forgive me for all the english mistakes I should have made

[muemakan 8]

sangohan357 said:

 Hi there,

First, please forgive me for my english : I'm french.

I've just read the last FAQ and I have still questions unanswered.

1) If all your heroes are lost, what would happen when you decide to let an attack without defense ?

2) If you put a card with a cost of X under a "Nameless Thing" how do you count it ? 0 ? 10 in roman numbers ;-) ?

Again, please forgive me for all the english mistakes I should have made

 

1.  Seems nobody thought about that……

2. 0

 

[richsabre 358]

muemakan said:

sangohan357 said:

 

 Hi there,

First, please forgive me for my english : I'm french.

I've just read the last FAQ and I have still questions unanswered.

1) If all your heroes are lost, what would happen when you decide to let an attack without defense ?

2) If you put a card with a cost of X under a "Nameless Thing" how do you count it ? 0 ? 10 in roman numbers ;-) ?

Again, please forgive me for all the english mistakes I should have made

 

 

 

1.  Seems nobody thought about that……

2. 0

 

if all are lost would it not be game over?

[muemakan 8]

richsabre said:

muemakan said:

 

sangohan357 said:

 

 Hi there,

First, please forgive me for my english : I'm french.

I've just read the last FAQ and I have still questions unanswered.

1) If all your heroes are lost, what would happen when you decide to let an attack without defense ?

2) If you put a card with a cost of X under a "Nameless Thing" how do you count it ? 0 ? 10 in roman numbers ;-) ?

Again, please forgive me for all the english mistakes I should have made

 

 

 

1.  Seems nobody thought about that……

2. 0

 

 

 

if all are lost would it not be game over?

 

See FAQ 1.3

´If your last hero gets shuffled into your deck you are not eliminated from the game.´

[richsabre 358]

ah sorry- forgot about that..in that case i have no idea

rich

[sangohan357 0]

 Thanks for the fast answer ! Where did you find the answer for the "X cost" ? Because it's obviously the best answer but i can't find anything on this subject !

[muemakan 8]

sangohan357 said:

 Thanks for the fast answer ! Where did you find the answer for the "X cost" ? Because it's obviously the best answer but i can't find anything on this subject !

 

It was clarified sometime in the past. Also no other number would make sense.

[sangohan357 0]

 Are there any chance to see an official answer for the attack without defense when all your heroes are lost ?