4 differents questions

[player724529 0]

Hello all

 

I have 4 differents tricky questions :

1) If a player play Narrow escape all characters discarded and killed come back or does he have to chose between kill or discard and only those come back?

2) If a player play Valar Morgulis and Lucas Blackwood is killed this way, does the MIL challenge occure immediately (befroe Moribonds leaves play) or after they left play?

3) If a character is stealthed by Poisonned knife and has no Influence nor gold, is the character automatcally discarded?

4) and last question : If Tarl the Thrice-drowned has more then 3 power on him… is he discarded?

[ktom 598]

shlipack said:

1) If a player play Narrow escape all characters discarded and killed come back or does he have to chose between kill or discard and only those come back?

"…all characters that were killed or discarded this phase…".

So long as the character was either killed or discarded, it meets the description of which characters come back. If you had to choose between killed and discarded characters, the card would tell you to choose between killed and discarded characters.

shlipack said:

2) If a player play Valar Morgulis and Lucas Blackwood is killed this way, does the MIL challenge occure immediately (befroe Moribonds leaves play) or after they left play?

You initiate the military challenge as your next player action in the plot phase. Your first chance to take a player action comes after the action window in which Valar was revealed closes - meaning that all cards killed by Valar are removed (when the window closes) before you get a chance to actually initiate the challenge.

shlipack said:

3) If a character is stealthed by Poisonned knife and has no Influence nor gold, is the character automatcally discarded?

Well, you could always cancel the Response on Poisoned Knife or save the bypassed character from being discarded. So "automatically" is kind of an overstatement.

shlipack said:

4) and last question : If Tarl the Thrice-drowned has more then 3 power on him… is he discarded?

Considering that power is claimed individually (ie, claiming 2 power creates 2 different "after you claim power" passive/response opportunities), the answer is "yes." You cannot "bypass" the 3-power effect by having more than 3 power because the discard kicks in for the the 3rd power - whether a 4th is claimed or not. Nice try on an overly literal interpretation of the effect, though.

[player724529 0]

thamks for answering

 

However for the 4th question I emptied his textbox and he claimed (while blank some powers, so when he recovered his textbox he had 5 power on him., that's why the question.

[ktom 598]

shlipack said:

thamks for answering

 

However for the 4th question I emptied his textbox and he claimed (while blank some powers, so when he recovered his textbox he had 5 power on him., that's why the question.

Same difference. As far as the game is concerned, you cannot have 5 power on a character without having 3 power on the character. 

This is not the same as "choose a character with 3 STR," which locks the choices to characters with exactly 3 STR. The power counters on a character are "peripheral entities" associated with the card, not a characteristic of the card itself. Since each power counter is a separate entity, you cannot claim the "collective" of 5 as a disqualification of the 3.

Granted, FFG will usually word cards such as this as "3 or more power" to avoid the confusion you are now experiencing. But the lack of clarifying text on this card does not change the underlying facts or treatment of the power.

[player724529 0]

It was exactly that my defense… "on other cards it's sepified "or more"…" Thx for answering.

[Saturnine 47]

ktom said:

Granted, FFG will usually word cards such as this as "3 or more power" to avoid the confusion you are now experiencing. But the lack of clarifying text on this card does not change the underlying facts or treatment of the power.

 

I don't know if this changes your interpretation of the original wording, but Tarle did receive the erratum "should read: '…3 or more power…'", so the situation that Shiipack was asking about is now definitely covered and you cannot circumvent discarding him with narrow interpretations of "3 power."

[ktom 598]

Saturnine said:

I don't know if this changes your interpretation of the original wording, but Tarle did receive the erratum "should read: '…3 or more power…'", so the situation that Shiipack was asking about is now definitely covered and you cannot circumvent discarding him with narrow interpretations of "3 power."

It doesn't change the interpretation of the original wording - it jus adds the clarifying text I noted appeared on most other similar cards.

[Phantazm 0]

I have a question similar to #4. If a Former Champion gets Flame-Kissed, will he die after he gets second power token on him? He gets -2 power for every token, and Flame-Kissed characters should die if their power is 0. But after getting the second power token (and flame kiss) his power drops to -1. Does this counts as gradual drop of power or not?

[Khudzlin 734]

When the value for a stats is negative after all modifiers have been applied, it is considered 0. So no clarifying text is needed in this case.

[Phantazm 0]

Well I guess he dies?

And does that modifiers are counted for a character or for a site? For example if I have a former champion with more than 3 power counter and he has negative strenght, will he reduce power of my attack if I use him with another character to initiate a challenge?

[Amuk 9]

Phantazm said:

Well I guess he dies?

And does that modifiers are counted for a character or for a site? For example if I have a former champion with more than 3 power counter and he has negative strenght, will he reduce power of my attack if I use him with another character to initiate a challenge?

Once you total all modifiers on a character, negative totals are rounded up to 0. So a Former Champion with 3+ power counters just has 0 STR.

[radiskull 39]

Phantazm said:

Well I guess he dies?

And does that modifiers are counted for a character or for a site? For example if I have a former champion with more than 3 power counter and he has negative strenght, will he reduce power of my attack if I use him with another character to initiate a challenge?

Phantazm said:

Well I guess he dies?

And does that modifiers are counted for a character or for a site? For example if I have a former champion with more than 3 power counter and he has negative strenght, will he reduce power of my attack if I use him with another character to initiate a challenge?

Yes, he would die.  The point is that the lowest a character's STR can be is 0.  If you've got a Former Champion with 10 power on him, his strength is 0.  So he wouldn't affect your other characters in the challenge.

[ktom 598]

radiskull said:

Yes, he would die.  The point is that the lowest a character's STR can be is 0.  If you've got a Former Champion with 10 power on him, his strength is 0.  So he wouldn't affect your other characters in the challenge.

To avoid some confusion here…the lowest a character's effective STR can be is 0. When you resolve a challenge, you figure out what the effective STR of each character is and add them together. So a single character can never be considered less than 0 when another card, effect, or mechanic references its STR.

However, just because a character's effective STR can never be less than 0, don't make the mistake of thinking that you start from 0 when a character's effective STR is 0 for the next STR calculation. If you have a 1-STR character with Poison Wine on it (attached character gets -2 STR), it's effective STR will indeed be 0, not -1. However, if you play a card that gives it +1 STR, it's effective STR will still be 0, not +1, because you start the calculation all over again (ie, 1 - 2 + 1 = 0, not (1 - 2 = -1 = 0) + 1 = 1).

It's a very fine nit to pick, I know, but it is an important one.

[Maester_LUke 0]

ktom said:

radiskull said:

Yes, he would die.  The point is that the lowest a character's STR can be is 0.  If you've got a Former Champion with 10 power on him, his strength is 0.  So he wouldn't affect your other characters in the challenge.

To avoid some confusion here…the lowest a character's effective STR can be is 0. When you resolve a challenge, you figure out what the effective STR of each character is and add them together. So a single character can never be considered less than 0 when another card, effect, or mechanic references its STR.

 

However, just because a character's effective STR can never be less than 0, don't make the mistake of thinking that you start from 0 when a character's effective STR is 0 for the next STR calculation. If you have a 1-STR character with Poison Wine on it (attached character gets -2 STR), it's effective STR will indeed be 0, not -1. However, if you play a card that gives it +1 STR, it's effective STR will still be 0, not +1, because you start the calculation all over again (ie, 1 - 2 + 1 = 0, not (1 - 2 = -1 = 0) + 1 = 1).

It's a very fine nit to pick, I know, but it is an important one.

I realize I'm foolish to even question this, but I don't think "effective" is appropriate here. From the FAQ section under Lasting Effect Conflicts:

The order in which the lasting effects take place is irrelevant: the net sum result of all lasting effects is applied to the character (the net sum of -1 Power icon and +1 Power icon is 0, thus the character remains unchanged). A character can never have more than one icon of a specified kind.

Lasting effects that affect other character attributes work in the same fashion. For example, if a character has a base STR of 2, and a lasting effect (such as Forever Burning) lowers that character's STR by 1, and another Lasting Effect (such as Gutter Rat's Cunning gives the character +2 STR, the net sum modifier affecting the character is +1 STR (-1 +2 = +1). Thus, the character has a total STR of 3. If a character's STR is ever lower than 0 after all effects are applied, its STR is rounded up to 0.

I'm just suggesting that invoking the word "effective" is adding unnecessary verbiage.  The character's STR _is_ zero, just as you can never have less than 0 or more than 1 of a challenge icon.  Any value less than 0 rounds up to zero (and in the case of icons, any value of 2 or more rounds down to one), with the important thing being that these values are constantly computed.  In this sense, putting a -3 (non-terminal) effect on a 1 STR character is not "wasted," a +2 STR pump mid-challenge will not leave them at 1 STR, instead they will be at 0 STR (1 - 3 + 2 = 0).  I realize this semantics, but it heavy-handed to correct him, when the FAQ seems to be clear.  And in the end we're all trying to say the same thin rules-wise.

 

 

 

 

 

[ktom 598]

Maester_LUke said:

I realize this semantics, but it heavy-handed to correct him, when the FAQ seems to be clear.

And yet, people very often try to start from the 0 instead of from scratch. Perhaps it is heavy-handed, but it's a common mistake that really ought to be pointed out when the statement is "the lowest a character's STR can be is 0."

[Maester_LUke 0]

ktom said:

Maester_LUke said:

I realize this semantics, but it heavy-handed to correct him, when the FAQ seems to be clear.

And yet, people very often try to start from the 0 instead of from scratch. Perhaps it is heavy-handed, but it's a common mistake that really ought to be pointed out when the statement is "the lowest a character's STR can be is 0."

 

I'd really love if there was some notation for this, like |x| for the absolute value of x.

[mdc273 29]

On a side note, the game doesn't actually say that the lowest a character's strength can be is zero. It says that for all effects that considers the character's strength, you round up a negative number to zero.

I thus argue that it is neither effective strength, nor actual strength, but in fact ROUNDED strength!!!

Yea… I went all semantics on that… D:

[radiskull 39]

Maester_LUke said:

 

 

I'd really love if there was some notation for this, like |x| for the absolute value of x.

No problem, just compute STR and then set STR = max(0,STR).