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Weapon training for Heavies and SP weapons in general

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So I've been toying around with the beta rules and whatnot, and I came across several things that I found rather…broken, and not in a good way.

First off, what is with the complete disregard for slug throwers? Why can't I make a Regiment that uses Autoguns as their standard weapon? Fluff wise there is absolutly nothing wrong with that, and I find it odd that there isn't anything sort of Las or SP option in the creation rules. Oh sure I can spend points to give my guys stub weapons, but that would be on top of their regular las gun that most of the regiment types get and it really would be a waste of points.

Secondly, and on the same tangent, no one but the Weapon Specialist and Ratlings can even use SP weapons. No other class has SP weapons training, despite the fact that I can easily give all my guys SP weapons. There is even an option fo making SHOTGUNS of all weapons standard issue, despite the fact that a large portion of my army doesn't even know how to use them.

And while we're on the subject of weapon training, I am very disappointed with the Heavy Weapon Specialist's starting training and gear setup. They start with Las, Launcher, Low-Tech, and Heavy training, meaning the only real heavy weapons they can use are Missile Launchers, Mortars and Las Cannons. This means that out of 3 possible starting weapons, they can only really use 1 of them (unless you take Mortars as your regiment's favored heavy weapon). The entry for Weapons Training states that even if a character has the Heavy training, they still need the subsequent weapon type (las, flame, bolt, etc) to use heavy weapons of that type, so they would need Bolt in order to make usre of the Heavy Bolter option. This also hurts anyone wanting to make a close combat or urban fighter themed regiment who wanted to kit their heavies out with heavy flamers. Having to wait and spend some XP to get to Plamsa and Melta I can understand, they are very powerful and rare weapons, but common (relatively) weapons like heavy flamers and stubbers are not viable starting options.

 

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I second replacing all instances of "Weapon Training (Las)" with "Weapon Training (Las) or (SP)". Also, having an option to replace the Lasgun with an Autogun sounds appropriate (although the DepMun will probably hate your guts for complicating their tidy logistics).

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I agree that there should be the option to take SP weapon training in place of Las for all characters, since you can kit out a full Regiment with them.

 

As for the Heavy, either changing it to "Launcher OR Bolt training" or just outright adding Bolt training would fix the issue.

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Xyklos said:

I agree that there should be the option to take SP weapon training in place of Las for all characters, since you can kit out a full Regiment with them.

 

As for the Heavy, either changing it to "Launcher OR Bolt training" or just outright adding Bolt training would fix the issue.

For maximum flexibility, I think something along the lines of "Las and/or SP, Launcher, Heavy, (any non-exotic type)" would be good. That gives the Heavy access to basic weapons like missile launchers while still allowing them to take a training that would let them use either the heavy bolter or whatever their favored weapon is.

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I've been going over things with some like-minded individuals, and we've all been able to agree on some things:

The starting Weapons Training for the Heavy Weapons Specialist should be: Las/SP*, Heavy, Launcher, (One non-exotic type)

The starting weapons list for the Heavy Weapon Specialist should be: Heavy Stubber or Missile Launcher or (Favored Heavy Weapon)

The Heavy Stubber and Missile Launcher are good, baseline heavy weapons. The stubber offers a good heavy base of fire while the launcher gives the squad some real pinpoint heavy fire/anti-armor capability. You can really mess up infantry with the stubber and can carry lots of ammo, but it's not that usefull against hardened/dug in positions or armor. The opposite is true for the launcher, so it balances out.

The Heavy Bolter is just a bit powerful as a baseline starting weapon, however, it is not completely out of reach. By spending the free WT to take Bolt and getting Heavy Bolters as a favored weapon, they can still be taken, but it takes a bit more work and helps balance out the fact that you then need to spend XP on even better WTs like Melta and Plasma, where as if you had taken one of those to start with, your starting gun would be weaker, but later on it would be easier to use such weapons.

 

(*) I think we're all in agreement that there needs to be options of taking SP or Las training, but where should it be applied? On a Regimental level, Doctrine level, or at Class level? I personally would like to see it be relatively easy to get both at start, but I can see how that might be a bit over powered.

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Varn said:

 

I've been going over things with some like-minded individuals, and we've all been able to agree on some things:

The starting Weapons Training for the Heavy Weapons Specialist should be: Las/SP*, Heavy, Launcher, (One non-exotic type)

The starting weapons list for the Heavy Weapon Specialist should be: Heavy Stubber or Missile Launcher or (Favored Heavy Weapon)

The Heavy Stubber and Missile Launcher are good, baseline heavy weapons. The stubber offers a good heavy base of fire while the launcher gives the squad some real pinpoint heavy fire/anti-armor capability. You can really mess up infantry with the stubber and can carry lots of ammo, but it's not that usefull against hardened/dug in positions or armor. The opposite is true for the launcher, so it balances out.

The Heavy Bolter is just a bit powerful as a baseline starting weapon, however, it is not completely out of reach. By spending the free WT to take Bolt and getting Heavy Bolters as a favored weapon, they can still be taken, but it takes a bit more work and helps balance out the fact that you then need to spend XP on even better WTs like Melta and Plasma, where as if you had taken one of those to start with, your starting gun would be weaker, but later on it would be easier to use such weapons.

 

(*) I think we're all in agreement that there needs to be options of taking SP or Las training, but where should it be applied? On a Regimental level, Doctrine level, or at Class level? I personally would like to see it be relatively easy to get both at start, but I can see how that might be a bit over powered.

 

 

I can fully agree to this. I'll use this for my players should one of them decide to play a heavy gunner (starting this sunday).
I hope FFG reads and implements this.

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Cifer said:

Alternatively, just replace Launcher with "any one". This way, they get more flexible in character creation, but not more powerful in gameplay.

I'm all for changing Launcher with "any one". I would also give the heavy a choice between a Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter, or the Regimental heavy weapon as their starting weapon.

Keeping with the fluff of the 40k universe I agree with the new rules that the regimental heavy weapon can't be extremely rare. Therefore the change of the Multi-melta to that rarity is a good choice, I would also like to see the Plasma Cannon be made extremely rare. Again keeping the fluff in mind the lascannon could be lowerd to very rare seeing that this weapon is actually called "Man Portable" and is used by most regiments.

A good GM should discourage the heavy weapon player from choosing ether Plasma or Melta, since this weapon trait doesn't fit with Imperial Guard Lore and won't be useful for a starting character with the rules adjustments above.

When later on he has the renown to aquire one of these powerful weapons he (and his squad) wil realy be marked as special.

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 Is there actually support in the fluff of an autogun regiment? I thought the whole point of making lasgun the standard IG weapon is to give them powerpacks that can be recharged in the field and avoid a huge logistical nightmare.

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deinol said:

 Is there actually support in the fluff of an autogun regiment? I thought the whole point of making lasgun the standard IG weapon is to give them powerpacks that can be recharged in the field and avoid a huge logistical nightmare.

 

Fluff-wise, Las guns and Autoguns are pretty much identical. They both do comparable damage and have about the same reliability. Ammo is a bit easier to come by for Las guns, but Autoguns tend to be a bit more rugged. It all boils down to what kind of resources a planet has on hand and what their tech and industrial level is at. Armageddon equips all it's troops with autoguns if I remember correctly. And while I have not played the table top game is a good number of years, las rifles and autoguns used to have identical rules, it all depended on how you wanted your guys to look.

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I can see that we're already making a tier 1 and teir 2 system for weapons. Im not sure about the necessity of using that here yet, but i'll abstain vote.

It might be awkward if your RPW is the same as what is already a gear option such as H-stubber and missile launcher, if it says AND select regimental preferred weapon training. When you already have one and the weapon to go with it.

So instead i propose that at the start it just says:

Weapons specialist gear, either a: flamer (& training) or grenade launcher & 6 frag rounds* (& training).

Start with training for: 1 regimental preferred assault weapon, if you already have this, then you may chose 1 other weapon training of choice.

So either way they end up with 2 weapons training at the start, but only 1 weapon thats either a flamer or grenade launcher and the training to go with it. And one of these 2 trainings has to be a regimental preferred weapon, and that may be the 1 weapon that they have already.

Also starting with a melta is weird.

To help with the difficult logic that is required the starting gear choice should be listed ABOVE the training choice in the applicable character sections.

 

The Heavy should have the option of

Heavy gear, either a: common craftsmanship h-stubber (& training) or missile launcher (&training)

Start with training for: 1 regimental preferred assault weapon, if you already have this, then you may chose 1 other weapon training of choice.

So theres nothing to stop you from choosing H-stubber and training, and then H-bolter which is your RPW.

 

*I just noticed there is no description for Krak rounds. Either way, these should probably be requisitioned separetly.

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LazerTracer said:

The Heavy should have the option of

Heavy gear, either a: common craftsmanship h-stubber (& training) or missile launcher (&training)

Start with training for: 1 regimental preferred assault weapon, if you already have this, then you may chose 1 other weapon training of choice.

So theres nothing to stop you from choosing H-stubber and training, and then H-bolter which is your RPW.

 

*I just noticed there is no description for Krak rounds. Either way, these should probably be requisitioned separetly.

 

That's far too limiting in my opinion. The Heavy should get a good base of WT talents that cover all basic Heavy weapons and their favored weapon. This allows them to kit out in a way that makes them useful in jsut about any situation using just baseline weapons. If they can only get one type of weapon perid, then it makes it even harder for them to branch out, especially with the current XP costs/aptitude system already being so expensive.

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Varn said:

 

 That's far too limiting in my opinion. The Heavy should get a good base of WT talents that cover all basic Heavy weapons and their favored weapon. This allows them to kit out in a way that makes them useful in jsut about any situation using just baseline weapons. If they can only get one type of weapon perid, then it makes it even harder for them to branch out, especially with the current XP costs/aptitude system already being so expensive.


What would you define as basic heavy weapons? Heavy Stubber and Missile Launcher?

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Yes. As I explained before, they are both relatively common jack-of-all-trades weapons that complement each other very well. Fluff wise everyone uses them, no matter what "favored" weapons a regiment has, you'll always find Heavy Stubbers and Missile Launchers in use somewhere.

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@Varn

Fluff-wise, Las guns and Autoguns are pretty much identical. They both do comparable damage and have about the same reliability. Ammo is a bit easier to come by for Las guns, but Autoguns tend to be a bit more rugged.

While I agree that there are some guard regiments with autoguns, I disagree about the above notion. Ammo is the benefit to lasguns. You just need electricity or, failing that, sunlight or fire (gotta replace that crappy "24h in fire" rule, though - it takes 24 hours to reload a clip when you place it near a fire or in sunlight and it doesn't damage the clip. Catachan reloading should be much faster). Essentially, you can strike standard ammo out of your supply line.

Also, lasguns are Reliable, autoguns are not.

Autoguns benefit from having Full Auto and alternate ammo types. For low-level guardsmen without high BS, lasguns are straight better.

 

@KommissarK

In the tabletop or the fluff?

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I'm just going to point out that when I say "Fluff", I'm talking about books/stories/info docs. I try to stay away from comparing anything to the table top game simply becasue the rules for the table top game are so retardely unbalanced and scaled. They also get changed every few months and are written by hands that have no idea what the other is doing, so things just don't match up.

If things went by how the table top game is, then autocannons and melta guns would be have an Availability rating of Common and everyone and their brother would ride around in Valkyries.

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"Is there actually support in the fluff of an autogun regiment? I thought the whole point of making lasgun the standard IG weapon is to give them powerpacks that can be recharged in the field and avoid a huge logistical nightmare."

 

Yes and no. Autoguns are commonly issued by PDF regiments rather than guardsmen (since they require a lower tech base and PDF don't have to ship things across star systems).

Heavy stubbers are common PDF weapons for the same reason. See Siege of Vraks for the obvious example.

 

Whether Only War regiments should cover PDF troopers is an open question, but SP weapons should be useable - as noted, veterans, sergeants and engineers have canonically a lot of love for the assault shotgun and autopistol.

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Cifer said:

@Varn

Fluff-wise, Las guns and Autoguns are pretty much identical. They both do comparable damage and have about the same reliability. Ammo is a bit easier to come by for Las guns, but Autoguns tend to be a bit more rugged.

While I agree that there are some guard regiments with autoguns, I disagree about the above notion. Ammo is the benefit to lasguns. You just need electricity or, failing that, sunlight or fire (gotta replace that crappy "24h in fire" rule, though - it takes 24 hours to reload a clip when you place it near a fire or in sunlight and it doesn't damage the clip. Catachan reloading should be much faster). Essentially, you can strike standard ammo out of your supply line.

Fully agreed with this. A while back, I looked at the Dark Heresy costs and weights for lasguns compared to autoguns, regarding them from a logistics point of view. In terms of equipping and supplying armies, the lasgun is overwhelmingly superior.

Assuming an average of an hour of firing (overall, not including reload time, and not all at once) at the fastest fire rate available to the respective weapons every day, then each day consumes 7,200 autogun rounds (240 standard box magazines) per person, or 2,160 lasgun discharges (36 standard charge packs) per person. During that time, the Autogun will suffer an average of 50.4 malfunctions, while the Lasgun will only suffer a tenth as many. Add in reloading and time clearing jams (full actions for both, as standard), and that hour of firing increases by a further 24 minutes for autoguns, or a further three for the lasgun.

Across an Imperial Guard Company (assumed strength of 300 souls), assuming no other weapons for the sake of convenience, that works out to 2.16 million autogun rounds a day, or 648 thousand lasgun discharges, with the company suffering from more than fifteen thousand autogun malfunctions, or a little over fifteen hundred lasgun malfunctions.

That's mainly a factor of fire rate - the more controlled, slower rate of fire of the lasgun makes it more efficient, and its reliability keeps it functional in the field for longer in any period of protracted fighting, while the larger capacity of the charge pack over the magazine gives it endurance. The autogun also requires an eightfold increase in time spent reloading the weapon or clearing misfires, compared to the lasgun. In the grand scheme of things, the lasgun is far, far more efficient.

But then you consider the mass of that ammunition. Using the rough "10% of weapon weight per clip" guideline, an autogun magazine weighs 350 grams, while a lasgun charge pack is slightly heavier at 400g. The big issue here is that with autoguns, you have to provide just over two million bullets per day per company (or equivalent materials, for local manufacture)… which, with a 30-round magazine as standard, basically works out to just over twenty-five tonnes of ammunition per company per day… a month-long campaign, employing a hundred companies of Guardsmen with autoguns requires the transport of more than 2.2 million tonnes of ammunition for those autoguns alone. Lasguns are not so space-intensive - any lasgun charge pack not currently in use can be recharged, even if only by leaving it near a heat or light source. If every Guardsman is carrying 4 charge packs, and recharges diligently, then a company needs only be equipped with less than half a tonne's shipment of lasgun charge packs (480 kilos, for twelve hundred charge packs) for the entire campaign whether it lasts for a month or a decade.

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