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CodenameXXIII

A Rogue Trader with Land Raiders?

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 On the Beta module there are a section (page 250) where it says that the Rogue Trader House Gibrahan has comitted a Land Raider battalion. As I know, ONLY Adeptus Astartes can use Land Raiders by Emperor Order.

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I would chalk this up to the notion that Rogue Trader's constantly skirt with Imperial law. While probably a "big deal" I doubt anyone would really call him out on it. I mean, hes got a batallion of land raiders, do you want to be the one to tell him he can't have them? Powerful rogue traders can command a similar amount of power to that of a Space Marine captain, and that writ does allow them to act as the Emperor himself in some regions. I seriously doubt the space marines would even want to bother with the effort it would take to recover (read destroy) those land raiders, when they could just as well be put to use fighting the enemies of the Emperor.

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Dispatch mono-task servitors and a Secutor to the BETA Only War Forum; Mech-wright CodenameXXIII is clearly corrupted and requires adjustment.

- to quote a very famous Archmagos lengua.gif

 

 

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Apart from the "Batallion" which I think overdoes it somewhat, I'm fine with a Rogue Trader posessing a few Landraiders. I'm certain his Seneschal would be able to cite half a dozen reasons and precedents on why this is entirely acceptable, only one of them being "Because we have Landraiders and Cruisers and you really don't want their barrels pointed at you, right?".

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CodenameXXIII said:

 But by emperor decree only Astartes can use it. It Is a sin…

True, but having a Warrant of Trade puts you outside of Imperial (and also Ecclisiarchical) law, by and large. It's not nearly so clear cut as it sounds, not when it comes to Rogue Traders. They're allowed to deal openly with xenos, and even flaunt Imperial Creed with some leeway. That would get your average citizen (as well as Guardsman) executed or thrown in a a penal legion.

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 Further; The RT may very well have contact with an Astartes chapter (Say Peer talent!). If that is so they may be part of the supply chain for said chapter. If that is the case than the RT would be expected to maintain a number of Landraiders on hand. As has been stated before; Many of the Emperor's decrees do not apply to Rogue traders. About the only group that seems to be capable of reigning in a Rogue Trader are full fledged Inquisitors and even THEY won't do it lightly!cool.gif In one of the Ultramarines books Captain Ventris Executes a Rogue Trader for attempting to steal an Astartes power sword but I think this was because it was a chapter relic rather than the Rogue trader's legality in posessing the weapon.

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The battalion thing might not mean there's that many tanks as one would first think anyway… I'm having a rough time sorting out the nonclemature here, but I've been wracking my brain about it.

A lot of FFG's stuff takes a page from GW, who are British. So this all complicates things. Like how Regiment isn't a set unit size (division) like in the US, under the UK and other Commonwealth nations.

I know a Tank Battalion, under the US order of battle, would be about 50 tanks (if my source is correct), which is frankly way too many for anyone to have. Which leads me to believe what they really mean is a Tank Company, closer to only 10-15 tanks.

Maybe chalk this one up as one of those minor things they should tweak.

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I do believe that the Imperium, as a whole, can use Land Raiders; we mostly see only Space Marines because A: the SM's get all the cool stuff/perks, and B: because Land Raiders are EXPENSIVE, and labor-intensive to make in the galaxy, like most of the Imperium's coolest stuff, leaving only the Space Marines functioning in small enough units to make use of their rare firepower. While I am willing to bet that, in fluff, there is considerably more to the relationship between Space Marines and their super-Rhinos, I am 98% certain that Inquisitors can req/influence grab one, like everything else under the sun, to use for at least a little while, and I am fond of believing that anything an Inquisitor can get, a Rogue Trader can grab, too, since their system is overall better. The RT books don't do much to persuade against the belief that, when it comes down to it, ANY item can be purchased if enough raw money is thrown at it, and PF is also supposed to cover their influence, connections, etc, so maybe they had good relations with a Chapter, and were able to acquire some (god, I don't know how).

It also may very well be that they were just transporting the LRs for someone, making a buck. or stole them. I think one of the Endeavor examples in ItS or HA discusses stealing an actual Titan, and getting to keep it (though it never explains how they will persuade the Titan crew to serve them, and capping them means no crew to operate it; only a trained Princeps can, I believe). For all I know, they could have been recovered from the ruins of a battle dite, one of those rare days when the Space Marines get trounced. in that case, they can keep them, and if the Imperium (monolithic, short attention span kingdom, or the owning SM Chapter don't ask for them back (if they even have the right to), no harm, no foul. if they do ask, it could be another nice chance to earn brownie points with one or more major imperial bodies. Personally, I don't know what they'll do with a Land Raider (okay, I know, but there are more efficient, less ridiculous options, too), but I don't see it as impossible for a Rogue Trader, especially an NPC one, to have some. I just hope they have the craft to haul it down to the surface, and wouldn't mind knowing what statted vehicle that is.

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The Imperium as a whole can use Land Raiders. However during the Horus Heresy, when things were getting bad, the Emperor issued an emergency Mandate that essentially said all surviving loyalist Land Raiders would be transferred to the Astartes and new ones would be exclusively for their use until he ordered otherwise. Unfortunately he Ascended to the Golden Throne before he could discontinue this mandate.

Since this is an order straight from the Emperor, no one has ever really had the guts to say "well, maybe we should start giving the Guard Land Raiders again." Just the usual imperial bureaucracy and stupidity at work.

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Is it really so hard to think a Rogue Trader could possess a Land Raider (or several, or even an entire battalion?) The Rogue Trader IS the epitome of wealth, prestige, and heinous frickery after all. And yes, while His Holy Nibs, the Emperor hisownself did mayhaps decree that the Land Raider should be used by the Astartes exclusively, we have seen them in the hands of Inquisitors, have we not? Granted, the Inquistor flashes his or her badge and *poof* entire planets go away, but still…

Consider: the Warrants of Trade that allow our meandering merchants to do what they do best were ultimately handed down with the Shiny Chair's own authority. Some even came directly from His own hand. That being said, would a Space Marine LIKE the idea of a mere mortal (especially one motivated by base things like wealth and temporal power) commanding a mighty construct such as a Land Raider? Not bleeding likely. Would said Astartes directly contravene a directive handed down essentially straight from Dad? Also not bloody likely. More likely, they would grind their superhuman molars, grumble something to the tune of "Bugger All This For A Lark" and then run off to do something more important like shoot some Orks/Chaos/Heretics/Eldar/Tau/Mutants/Xenos. Amirite?  

To top it all off, Rogue Traders have this nasty habit of puttering around the galaxy in ex-Navy BATTLECRUISERS. Or fleets of same. You're worried about some 'roided up tanks? REALLY?

Just sayin'. gran_risa.gif

 

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Hiro Protagonist said:

Is it really so hard to think a Rogue Trader could possess a Land Raider (or several, or even an entire battalion?) The Rogue Trader IS the epitome of wealth, prestige, and heinous frickery after all. And yes, while His Holy Nibs, the Emperor hisownself did mayhaps decree that the Land Raider should be used by the Astartes exclusively, we have seen them in the hands of Inquisitors, have we not? Granted, the Inquistor flashes his or her badge and *poof* entire planets go away, but still…

Consider: the Warrants of Trade that allow our meandering merchants to do what they do best were ultimately handed down with the Shiny Chair's own authority. Some even came directly from His own hand. That being said, would a Space Marine LIKE the idea of a mere mortal (especially one motivated by base things like wealth and temporal power) commanding a mighty construct such as a Land Raider? Not bleeding likely. Would said Astartes directly contravene a directive handed down essentially straight from Dad? Also not bloody likely. More likely, they would grind their superhuman molars, grumble something to the tune of "Bugger All This For A Lark" and then run off to do something more important like shoot some Orks/Chaos/Heretics/Eldar/Tau/Mutants/Xenos. Amirite?  

To top it all off, Rogue Traders have this nasty habit of puttering around the galaxy in ex-Navy BATTLECRUISERS. Or fleets of same. You're worried about some 'roided up tanks? REALLY?

Just sayin'. gran_risa.gif

 

Totally Seconded.  They are some of the wealthiest and most influential individuals in the Galaxy.  The Dynasty might have 1000 ancient Land Raiders which they have had for four thousand years, or they may have the remants of an annililated space marine chapter's armoured strike force which they had on board when the marines bit the dust.

It is a very first edition feel, but famous Rogue Traders have been amongst the greatest architects of the koronus expanse and calixis sector.  With a good story they may posssess almost anything.  Even an adeptus mechanicus supported forge world.

 

Interrogator Z

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There are a number of means I can think of which a Rogue Trader might gain a hold of the use of such a force but even then it's stretching it a little. Firstly from what people have said there is no stated reason that these aren't Astrates owned and operated machines of war, there have been many cases where Chapters have seconded elements to a Rogue Trader… of course the number and composition might be a bit much but hey it's possible.

I doubt they could buy them but if they are fortunate enough to find some damaged ones which no Chapter has a strong claim to (or hears about) then they might be able to repair and keep them. Imagine if they were exceedingly lucky and managed to find a battlefield or a supply depot that had been lost long ago with land raiders. These could be Imperial Army or a chapter who no longer exists… personally as awesome as the Land Raiders are I'd try and track down the Chapter as returning a relic like even one of these could help you get in good with the big guys. If they can not return them to there rightful owners or the chapter/legion they come from they might keep them… depending on their proximity to chapters, how discreet they are and how they defend their ownership they might be able to grudgingly get away with it. If it's a Chapter that has been lost for example in the Warp the Rogue Trader might publicly vow to maintain and safeguard the Land Raiders, employing them against the Emperors foes as he or she searches for their rightful owners. They might not be too happy if they found the Chapter in the end but that's a tale for another time. Astrates Chapters might accept this as long as they follow true and aren't abusing the War Machines and their machine spirits.

It's quite odd but a powerful enough Rogue Trader just might be able to bend the rules depending on circumstances, I doubt one would go looking to bribe a forge world who can make them to get there hands on one. Even if they managed to get it the head ache and political upset with the Astrates, Ecclesiarchy, Administratum, etc just would not be worth it for what the Land Raider can do… the same application of resources could get far more if applied to more conventional means like nice cheap (in comparison I imagine) politically safe Baneblades.

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 Everyone's suggestions as to how a Rogue Trader dynasty may have the Land Raiders are all sound and fair, but i think the key point is how do they keep them? Marine chapters have been known to kill each other over a single artifact, let alone a venerated battle tank with a machine spirit that has witnessed hundreds or even thousands of their chapters battles. Yes the fiction is full of marines gifting their bolt pistols or combat blades to mere mortals but those are items that are mass produced by the marines, land raiders are ancient and venerated tools of war that are vital to the astartes combat doctrines and in fact would be wasted on mere mortals, not to mention any mortal who has the technical specs and ability to manufacture spare parts for a land raider would immediately be targeted by the astartes, inquisition, assorted magi of the ad-mech, heck even the imperial guard would get angsty about it.

I honestly wouldn't allow my players to maintain such assets without Inquisitorial and Astartes intervention and potential conflict.

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Don't some second-rate Forge worlds stamp out humongous tanks and call them 'Baneblades' based more on size and role that actual lineage of design or real capability? I can see 'Honest ArchMagos Al's Best Bargain Bonanza!' producing a variety of cheap copies of famous warmachines using inferior mass production-friendly designs. Doubtless such a fake 'Land Raider' would still be an impressively large and powerful APC, but the SM wouldn't feel quite so mortified as to cross the Ad Mech who said it was all honestly okay and above board.

Not to rule out the possiblity of the real thing salvaged from such an ancient battlefield that nobody knows who it originally belonged to, but that's not really good enough to outfit a whole Battalion.

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It's not that I don't like you train of thought, but I think a Land Raider is just too high-tech for them to pull something like that off. With advanced armour, and whatnot, that keep the size relatively small, so that while it's one of the most durable tanks the Imperium can field, it can still transport an entire squad of Space Marines.

A Baneblade, being larger, has more robust parts, and less fancy at that. So in that case, and similar ones, Forge Worlds without the actual plans can probably mock-up a suitable knockoff based on observations, and partial-data. Producing a functionally similar, but likely overall inferior (or maybe even superior?) version of the hardware in question.

Though we could reasonable infer that the Mechanicus isn't totally incapable of building new stuff that works. Considering the case of the Vanquisher (there's still one Forge-World producing them, things could be fine once it goes in to full Production. And what the hell is Mars doing, just sitting on the **** copies of the plans it's supposed to have?).

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CodenameXXIII said:

 On the Beta module there are a section (page 250) where it says that the Rogue Trader House Gibrahan has comitted a Land Raider battalion. As I know, ONLY Adeptus Astartes can use Land Raiders by Emperor Order.

I've mentioned this elsewhere.

No rogue traders with land raiders, please.

Atleast not battalions.

SM chapters tend to have a few (10 or so I understand?) But a battalion? No-one's fielded battalions of land raiders since the Heresy.

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Using the rules in Battlefleet Koronus, A Battalion could be as few as 20-30 vehicles. While that's certainly a lot for land raiders it's not totally beyond the realm of comprehension. Particularly when you read the background on this particular Rogue Trader. The Guy can apparently afford to field not one but two light cruisers in this conflict while the rest (?!) of his fleet continues with normal business! Thic ain't no beginner folks!cool.gif

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Nor is he one of the original Space Marine legions. Whether you try to justify it or not, the fact that a Rogue Trader just happens to have a battalion of extremely rare super heavy APCs is just weird. It becomes even more weird if you know where Land Raiders are usually and almost always found. In the hands of the people they were made for, the Space Marines, and in the hands of the guys with literally the entirety of Imperial resources at their command, the Inquisition.

Also, the fact that you have to literally put effort into why this should be normal is a pretty big red flag.

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Is it possible the land raiders are pre heresy relics gifted to the house by decree of the Emperor and the warrant he himself issued? If so, then the Rogue Trader's piece of paper is older than some administratum drone's piece of paper and thus has a higher precedent. Especially if said gift came with a clause of "And shall not be taken away for so long as "so and so" uses them to spread the imperial truth no matter what else I might say".

In such a case most organizations would simply let it lie. Even Astartes chapters might let it go so long as the tanks in question had never belonged to a legion or chapter. If the Trader in question also has a few Astartes as retainers then it's even less of an issue. Unless there's some preexisting conflict already in place I can't see to many marines doing more than glowering and refusing to work directly with the "mere mortal". They have better things to do than rolling in the muck with a perfumed dandy.

OTOH I think having more than five to ten is a wee bit to much..unless this guy also has a few squads of Space Marines on his ship that he's transporting to a war zone at the time.

 

 

 

 

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DJSunhammer said:

Nobody, not even the space marines, needs ten land raiders to transport a squad.

 

10 land raiders is enough to transport a full company of Adeptus Astartes and according to Lexicanum only 1st company of Chapter gets them (only Salamanders use 12 because their 1st company has 12 squads)

Also there is noted in Lexicanum that land raiders in sufficient numbers are capable of destroying Titan. In that case, if rogue trader has full batallion he could wipe out Orcs from that planet all by himself… no need of Imperial Guard deployment…

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Ok First; in all reality the most likely number of a Landraider Battalion? Its MAYBE 9. A squad of landraiders is usually 1-3 and a battalion is made up of said squads. So not as all likely we are talking about more then 10. 

 

Second; it does not mention anywhere in the book what model of landraider he has. A number of the older model landraiders were not only assigned to normal humans but the **** things wouldnt even hold a troop of space marines as they wernt designed for them. So instead of worrying that a "Mere" Rogue Trader has what is described as a battalion of landraider maybe wonder what type they are. Also the comment about landraiders being able to wipe out the entire Ork problem alone? No. Just no. Only a number of models of Landraiders could take out a Titan hell one model was designed to do just that. But first of all MARS has most of those and second the normal Landraider load out would barely scratch the paint with out a lascannon.

 

This is one of those things that really dosnt need to be argued over. The number of ways a Rogue Trader could bet its hands on ANY equipment from the Imperium are endless. And nowhere in that adventure does it even mention that the Land Raiders were LEGAL. It only mentions he HAS them. And as previously mentioned by others unless someone with the firepower to back up their complaint came around and MADE the complaint no one is gona argue with him about it. Seeing as he is described as being a **** powerful and influential RT the likelyhood of someone have the balls, or even just the time, to confront him over it is unlikely.

 

I mean really guys? Half the things in the lore go on about the number of Laws broken by just about every organization in the **** Imperium without them being punished for it. From the Space Wolves to the Inquisition to the Tech Priests and Sector Govenors everyone of them break and bend the laws of the empire all the time. They just havnt, or arnt worth the expenditure of resources at the time, and thats the end of that.

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