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Hopes for the Lathe Worlds?

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Vandegraffe said:

 

Yes, of course the Mechanicum hoards all the best toys to themselves.  Even with the fatigue issue, the basic integrated lasgun is almost as good as a bolter.  Look at it, it has the same damage, same RoF, two less penetration, and even has Tearing.  For a *starting* Dark Heresy character, that is pretty darn good.  There aren't many low level opponents that can stand up to that sort of abuse.

Cheers,

- V.

 

 

So, there is a weapon with 1d10+5(?); an autofire mode , Tearing and a Penetration of 2. While it is still better then a HE-Gun (IH) but I am not that sure that the Fatigue thing (what are the rules, by the way?) isn´t balacing it at least somewhat. 

 After all, it is just a big boost compared to starters. After the third missoin, people starting running around with better gun. And the better ONE combat guy in your group is, the better the looted enemy weapons will become.

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 @H.B.M.C: That's what I would assume and even if the word "base" was omitted by accident, our GM will make sure we don't get strange ideas about Luminen Barriers with 120 Rating. :)

Regarding cybernetics that cause Fatigue, here are the rules in the Dark Heresy errata v3.0: Logis Implant on page 117, Luminen Blast on page 117-118, Luminen Charge on page 118, and Luminen Shock on page 118 all state that the character gains one level of Fatigue when the talent is used. What these talents should say is that the character must pass a Toughness test when the talent is used or gain a level of Fatigue.

Thus, I believe that upon activating this cybernetic implant, the character will need to make a successful Toughness test or will suffer a point of Fatigue.

 

 

 

 

 

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Gregorius21778 said:

So, there is a weapon with 1d10+5(?); an autofire mode , Tearing and a Penetration of 2. While it is still better then a HE-Gun (IH) but I am not that sure that the Fatigue thing (what are the rules, by the way?) isn´t balacing it at least somewhat.


Integrated weapons don't Jam. Instead whenever you roll a Jam you suffer 1 Level of Fatigue. Jam's are annoying things. Fatigue affects every Test you make. That's the balance there. That and not everyone can just pick up an Integrated Weapon and fire away like there's no tomorrow. And the Lathe-Lasrilfe doesn't have auto-fire, only semi-auto (well… at least it did when I wrote it - I haven't got the finished book yet like some lucky others here, so I can't check). Lathe Las-Blaster has auto-fire and it is dangerous - it's a full proper archeotech-style weapon, but it replaces your forearm so, again, you can't just pick one up and start blazing away with it.

BYE

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Magos Seqvirin said:

Regarding cybernetics that cause Fatigue, here are the rules in the Dark Heresy errata v3.0: Logis Implant on page 117, Luminen Blast on page 117-118, Luminen Charge on page 118, and Luminen Shock on page 118 all state that the character gains one level of Fatigue when the talent is used. What these talents should say is that the character must pass a Toughness test when the talent is used or gain a level of Fatigue.

Thus, I believe that upon activating this cybernetic implant, the character will need to make a successful Toughness test or will suffer a point of Fatigue.



And the same applies to Luminen Flare, Luminen Surge, Luminen Shield and Luminen Barrier (although in the case of the latter two the Test is taken when the shield comes down, rather than when you put it up). Not the Integrated Weapons though. Their Fatigue cause is to replace Jamming, and Jamming already has a Test (ie. roll 96+, or worse, depending on fire mode).

BYE

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 Thank you for the clarification regarding Fatigue in these cases. 

Just to cling on (Klingon, ha!) to the topic a little bit further, I am now wondering if the Luminen Shield/Barrier will work together with a Refractor Field or similar devices. If yes, what rules will govern them? (Personally, I hope the stronger field overtakes the weaker one and they won't become stackable.)

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Two things:

 

  • Is there an errata yet? As there are now prices for the new weapon special qualities, however, at least some of them should be available as upgrades (eg: Razor sharp).

 

  • Crimson guard: Seriously?! This is the second most overpowered thing in the entire Dark Heresy rulewerse right after the Imperial Psykers absurd advancement tables. A starting equipment worth 12500 thrones? Access to the normal Imperial Guard stuff plus an extensive array of technical talents from level 1?! The only two things they miss for being more powerfull then the Imperial Psykers are Flesh is weak and the Auto/Prosanguine combo.

 

All that said, I really like the supplement, it does add quite a bit of insight and options to the gaming.

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 I understand that the Crimson Guard seems overpowered as a starting character - although I have yet to get my copy of the book -, but you need to bear in mind what's been written in the preview. They are the fighting elite, a sort Adeptus Mechanicus special forces. You can't have characters with such a background run around with a basic laspistol and some rugged hide as armour. So it is up to the GM to decide if he wants to allow such a strong starting character or not. (Plus I'd say the player needs to come up with a pretty good reason to start out with such a character and as an Inquisitorial agent to boot.)

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Magos Seqvirin said:

 

 I understand that the Crimson Guard seems overpowered as a starting character - although I have yet to get my copy of the book -, but you need to bear in mind what's been written in the preview. They are the fighting elite, a sort Adeptus Mechanicus special forces. You can't have characters with such a background run around with a basic laspistol and some rugged hide as armour. So it is up to the GM to decide if he wants to allow such a strong starting character or not. (Plus I'd say the player needs to come up with a pretty good reason to start out with such a character and as an Inquisitorial agent to boot.)

 

 

It's not hard to justify why a Crimson Guard is working for the Inquisition - the text on them explains quite clearly that it's not at all uncommon. The Inquisition must recognize that they are superior to most other troops of equivalent experience, so they go out of their way to request their services.

I think the issue is less that they fit the description set out for them - as AdMech SF (which is awesome) - but that they start there as Rank 1 PCs. If I want to play an IG Storm Trooper with a hellgun and storm trooper carapace armour in DH, I can't do it with a Rank 1 starting character, so that makes these guys seem a little busted in comparison.

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So I have a DW game going, with a Tech Priest turned Magos (who's title is Inquisitor) running alongside the Kill Team.

This book is certainly awesome, but my big question has to do with how to handle the new rules for when a Tech Priest gains The Flesh is Weak. With Lathe Worlds, he basically can get TFiW (4) without so much as batting an optical 'dendrite. Magos as an Ascension class however, offers TFiW at a significantly slower rate, and for a sizable amount of XP. My current ruling on the matter (while I mull this over) is that the Magos may get an XP refund for the difference of Ascensions TFiW vs. Lathe Worlds TFiW (and future versions of TFiW will cost as they do in Lathe Worlds, up until he hits 4, at which point Ascension takes over again).

Anyone know how this ought to be handled? Is TFiW in Ascension pretty much just right out?

Also, Paragon Talents, should any of them be modified to include Luminen Shield/Barrier in the similarly named Luminen Paragon Talent?

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I got my copy (well… copies… long story) yesterday! I love the artwork in this book. How awesome does the Panopticon look?

Now I get to unleash this stuff on my group!

BYE

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borithan said:

Oh… is it the Rank 1 Battle Sisters issue again?

Apparently, I don't have the book yet either, but presumably some people can't wrap their head around drawbacks like, sacrificing a character's arm for their gun (I'm assuming anyway, based on previous discussion, and mention that it's an implant). Not getting that guns aren't quite as useful as hands, and all that.

But I can't say for sure about anything until I see the book myself.

It's always a safe bet to assume people are blowing it out of proportion when they're talking about something overpowered. Last time it was the 'Manchurian Canadidate' specialty from Judgement (since you could have any skills you want!) and before that it was something else. In most cases it's a knee-jerk reaction.

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The most amusing to me is people complaining that the Crimson Guard can get Tech-Use +20 at Rank 1 (OMG!). Of course that'll cost him 600 xp and by the time he's spent that he's already Rank 2. And while everyone's freaking out about that, Mr. Lathesmaster can get that for 200 xp, at Rank 1, and even starts with Power Weapon training. So I think Blood Pact may be right.


All said though, I am loving the reactions. I honestly thought I'd instantly get defensive of any criticism, but seeing people freak out of the Venator Blade or how someone starting with AP6 armour is going to ruin the game is actually a pretty awesome feeling. gran_risa.gif

BYE

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 I guess this question would be better suited to the Rules or GM's board but it pertains to the Lathemaster and I dont think an entire thread should be devoted to it…

Anyone else think that the Underhive merchant background package from the Book of Judgement would fit nicely with the Lathemaster? Yeah theres that hive world home requirement, but I could see the talents and skills that the package provides being a nice compliment to the Lathemaster that fits well with the whole menial/tradesman archetype. What do you all think? Would you allow a lathmaster to take that background package? Better question. What background packages do YOU think would jive well with the Lathemaster?

 

Cheers,

-Clutch

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I think people should concern themselves with more important aspects of their characters than how much they can stack bonuses together and optomize things beyond the average degree.

 

H.B.M.C. said:


The most amusing to me is people complaining that the Crimson Guard can get Tech-Use +20 at Rank 1 (OMG!). Of course that'll cost him 600 xp and by the time he's spent that he's already Rank 2. And while everyone's freaking out about that, Mr. Lathesmaster can get that for 200 xp, at Rank 1, and even starts with Power Weapon training. So I think Blood Pact may be right.

Still don't bave the book, but that is an interesting corrolary. While Judgement had people freaking out about the Manchurian Candidate (ignoring the drawbacks as usual, of course, like having your mind-wiped all the time). Noone said a thing about Proven Innocent, which I honestly figured would be the real big complaint point, for giving +3 to every characterstic in exchange for a Fate point and a crazy amount of trust in the Inquisition.

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Clutch_Halthos said:

 I guess this question would be better suited to the Rules or GM's board but it pertains to the Lathemaster and I dont think an entire thread should be devoted to it…

Anyone else think that the Underhive merchant background package from the Book of Judgement would fit nicely with the Lathemaster? Yeah theres that hive world home requirement, but I could see the talents and skills that the package provides being a nice compliment to the Lathemaster that fits well with the whole menial/tradesman archetype. What do you all think? Would you allow a lathmaster to take that background package? Better question. What background packages do YOU think would jive well with the Lathemaster?

 

Cheers,

-Clutch

See, I would probably change Sibellus Scrounger pre-req from Hive World only to match Reclaimator (Hive World, Forge World, or Voidborn) with a good explanation. For Underhive Merchant, Hive World and Forge World, at least, both make sense, possibly Voidborn as well, again with a good story.

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Crimson Guard seems like a straight upgrade to the Guardsman. There is no reason, aside from RP, to not take it. As for his "Rank 1 Advance" chart, I did the numbers. With reasonable stat advances he can get to rank 8 without ever leaving it. It's not a starting package, it's an entire career.

As for the Discordant, with apologies to whoever wrote it: That is a completely stupid idea. Not explanation is given, except it's clearly not psyker powers. *facepalm* No. Just no. 40k is an SF setting. A ridiculous one, but even so you need some kind of excuse to tell the laws of physics to go bugger themselves. Making them into some kind of weird psker varient, or xenos experiment, or even just leaving hints as to how or why they exist would have sufficed, but no. They just exist, for no reason, and can break Titans at will. Although I don't see how they could be PCs really, unless your campaign never left the starting planet. Even a madman wouldn't take one of those exercises in implausibility aboard a voidship.

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Andor said:

Crimson Guard seems like a straight upgrade to the Guardsman. There is no reason, aside from RP, to not take it. As for his "Rank 1 Advance" chart, I did the numbers. With reasonable stat advances he can get to rank 8 without ever leaving it. It's not a starting package, it's an entire career.

 

You can spend all your XP and never leave the table? You say that like it's a bad thing.

And there are plenty of good reasons not to take it, "I don't want to play a Crimson Guard" being chief among them. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Not everything comes down to in-game power after all.

BYE

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H.B.M.C. said:

You can spend all your XP and never leave the table? You say that like it's a bad thing.

No, not really. It wasn't a critisism, just an observation. Some people were complaining about it as if it were a Rank 1 advance chart. And it's not. Thinking of it in comparison to the rank 1 guardsman table is missing the point. That's all I meant. I quite like it, myself.

As far as reasons not to take it go, if a new player came up to the table and wanted to play a guardsman for the same reason you give a new player a fighter in D&D, can you think of a single reason not to suggest Crimson Guards? Assuming no table specific reason exists, like an anti-mechanicus campaign or a Priest of the Pure Form cult in the party. Like I said, RP aside.

 

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 I'm really dissapointed in this book.

 

While HBMC is right about optimization not being everything, the Crimson Guard is just a mechanical step-up from just about everyone else at character creation. He's just flat-out better than a standard Guardsman, and can pull of most of a Tech-Priest's tricks. The lack of background packages and home worlds is a bit of a letdown. 

This book is really only good for Tech-Priest characters and GMs hungry for Mechanicus fluff. It doesn't have much use in the bulk of campaigns and most players will never really need anything from it. Discordants are rather silly, with no real fluff reason given for there existence and no real limits on their power.

 

I'm hoping for Book of Judgment to be kept as the gold standard; lots of good stuff for everyone.

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Andor said:

As far as reasons not to take it go, if a new player came up to the table and wanted to play a guardsman for the same reason you give a new player a fighter in D&D, can you think of a single reason not to suggest Crimson Guards? Assuming no table specific reason exists, like an anti-mechanicus campaign or a Priest of the Pure Form cult in the party. Like I said, RP aside.

 

Well I’d either give a new player an Assassin or a Guardsmen, but putting that aside I’d give the new play a regular Guardsman, not some alternate rank. Why would you confuse them with alternate ranks? In any case, I think that whenever you use the phrase “other than RP” (or words to those effect) you’ve basically ruined the whole point of the game (just like powerful =/= overpowered – it’s the same level of misconception to me).

 

I would play a Crimson Guard because I think the concept is really cool, not because he starts with a (supposedly) game-breaking knife and a fancy gun. I would play a regular Guardsman if I wanted to play a regular Guardsman. I would play a Templar Calix Psyker because I love the concept of this specialist school for martial psykers. I’d play a Suffering Marshal if I liked the concept. And so on. I don’t think you can detach RP from these choices. To me it’d be a bit like cutting off your arm but still wanting to keep your hand. You can’t. It’s not possible.

I think the comment that the Crimson Guard is effectively a ‘new career’ is fair enough (you could argue the same thing about the Lathesmaster – they are both fundamental shifts away from their core careers). It has its own characteristic advance table, gets its own rank names (even if they are just cosmetic), and has a huge table that you could stay on for the entire length of the character’s career. But given the subject matter, and just how different a Forge-world born tech-solider elite would be to a regular Guardsman, I’m actually ok with that.

I think that with the Agents of the Lords Dragon, the new and existing options for Tech-Priests, and the Mech-Assassin, Factor of the Lathes and Crimson Guard you have a book that allows you to run 100% AdMech based campaigns (ie. working for the AdMech rather than the Inquisition). It leaves out the Psyker, SoB and Cleric, then again it should leave those out (there are no AdMech psykers, and the other two are opposed to the AdMech’s goals). The BoJ allows for Arbite-based groups, and BoM allows for 100% Ecclesiarchy-based groups.

All of these things are good for the game, as they expand what type of game DH can be. The same basic core would be behind it – investigation and the like – but whom you’re investigating for and how you go about it changes. I think that this is a good thing. happy.gif

BYE

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Weren't there people in this thread actually posting that they'd love to see a Skitarii Career? At the very least requesting a specialty. And… we got one, right?

Also, having two hands is always nice (you do need to sacrifice a hand for that Crimson Guard implant gun, right? noone ever clarified that).

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