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DoomOnYou72

Tourney Rules are up (with a new Battlebuilder)

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DoomOnYou72 said:

FFG has posted the Tornement Rules for the season on the news page www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp . The rules also include a New/ Updated battle builder (intended for 400 pts. and below as thats where  they think the metagame changes). Some of the new Battle Builder stuff is pretty cool. Also new game night kits will be out in July.

 

Yeah, I'm thinking in any future battlebuilder games, I'll use the tourney version instead of the one in the book.

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 Are these guys seriously going to introduce tournaments with the rules in its current state? They must be desperate to sell miniatures now that they have exhausted the sales of rule books. Better start hoarding Markus, Angela, Rosie and Fireball minis quick so I can make big bucks on EBay.

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 The rules are fine in their current state.  Not sure what you mean by desperation of selling miniatures and they haven't exhausted the sales of their rulebook.  The rulebook went to a second printing because the first one completely sold out.  And they have never had an issue with selling miniatures so far.  So hoard all you wish (and why a fireball?  I understand the campaign heroes, but you got me confused by a heavy that is currently available), it won't matter much.

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It'd be nice if the pages that are meant to be printed in multiples were also supplied in a simpler form. Even with black and white printing, the Player Score Sheet and Player Reporting Sheet have a lot of unnecessary chrome that will just use up ink.

slainex said:

 Are these guys seriously going to introduce tournaments with the rules in its current state? They must be desperate to sell miniatures now that they have exhausted the sales of rule books. Better start hoarding Markus, Angela, Rosie and Fireball minis quick so I can make big bucks on EBay.

Why are the current rules not fit for tournament use?

 

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Nope, I wouldn't give my opponent the chance.  With the amount of cohesion between squads, and over 200 points (out of 300, since that's what FFG have implied their tournaments would be run at) he invested in that useless combo.  I would spread out enough or leave him a corner of my choosing for him to land in and take out the very small amount of troops he starts with.  

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slainex said:

I guess not many people have had the experience of two fully loaded fireballs air dropped on their flank.

 

How does dropping multiple fire balls have any effect on viability of tournament rules? 

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slainex said:

I guess not many people have had the experience of two fully loaded fireballs air dropped on their flank.

Agree and disagree:

You are correct on two fronts:

  1. Air Drop should not be allowed for Heavy Walkers, or at a minimum Air Drop point cost should scale with the unit size.  Something like 5 for soldiers, 8 for light walkers, 12 for medium walkers, 25 for heavy.  Air Dropping the most powerful units in the game distorts the balance, and it is not clear this was the designer's intent or was sufficiently playtested.
  2. In general Heavy Walkers are not well balanced against other units.  Heavy Walkers are fun and add an interesting element to the game, but point-for-point their armor is unbalanced:  It is very difficult for a force without a Heavy to make a dent in a reasonably well played and well supported Heavy.  Hopefully FFG will realize this and make a correction to the armor value, increase armor penetration of other units, nerf the Mechanic special ability or institute some other fix.  (note: recent update to the Battle Builder makes me optimistic that FFG understands game balance and will make course corrections)

But the game has also changed in a subtle way:  read the Battle Builder in the new DW Tournament rules closely.  2 of 4 scenario objectives reference Soldier units holding terrain and the 4th references assassinating an opposing command section.  Have not played it out, but likely to decrease Heavies dominance.

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 @ Dr. Cornelius - I'm not sure you could nerf the mechanic ability any further and make it even worth wasting an entire unit's action on it. Unless you just see a lot of Rosie. I watched my opponents go the whole game tonight (team game) attempting to repair their walkers every turn. 7 out of 7 failures. By sounding their Walkers, my daughter & I kept their command squads tied to one location the entire game. We didnt bring any mechanics, and her Ludwig made it to the end with two wounds, my Sturmkönig with 1. Both of our command sections got wiped out, but played integral roles in our win by eliminating more points worth of the enemy than they cost. Mechanic, if anything, needs to allow other special actions to make it worth while (medic, mechanic, reload all at the same time is worth an action. 33% chance to heal 1 wound, not worth it at all IMO, unless there is literally no other action the mechanic's unit can do). 

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blkdymnd said:

 I use the medic a lot for anti-suppression, if I get a heal out of it, bonus.  Never have I used the mechanic.

Ditto. Except I occasionally use mechanic to put a fire out. But I don't use either anymore unless it's to clear suppression or vehicle damage effect. Healing a wound, bonus, not end-goal. 

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blkdymnd said:

 A well played non heavy force can compete well with a force with a heavy.  I rarely take one and though they're beefy, there are a lot of ways to deal with them.

Please share your strategy and tactics for a non-heavy defeating a heavy force.  I have tried and failed on numerous occasions.  Additionally, the Kublacon DW tournament had heavies defeating non-heavies every time.  Clearly the matchup depends on terrain / LOS and opposing player skill, but in my experience heavies are nearly impossible to kill without other heavies.

Two specifics:

  1. Knowing I would face a Königsluther, I fielded two Pounders, The Gunners w/ upgrade and Tank Busters w/ Air Drop.    Net result, KL survives with round half damage, both Pounders one-shotted and the infantry AT units suppressed by infantry protecting the KL's vulnerable rear.
  2. The key thing that makes heavies viable is the Mechanic special ability.   Heavies are difficult to destroy due to high health, but the cumulative effects of several hits could leave them Blind, Burning and Weaponless - except for the Mechanic SA, which automatically removes on condition.

That being said, would be very interested in seeing battle reports where non-heavies carried the day over heavies.

 

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Dr.Cornelius said:

blkdymnd said:

 

 A well played non heavy force can compete well with a force with a heavy.  I rarely take one and though they're beefy, there are a lot of ways to deal with them.

 

Please share your strategy and tactics for a non-heavy defeating a heavy force.  I have tried and failed on numerous occasions.  Additionally, the Kublacon DW tournament had heavies defeating non-heavies every time.  Clearly the matchup depends on terrain / LOS and opposing player skill, but in my experience heavies are nearly impossible to kill without other heavies.

 

Two specifics:

  1. Knowing I would face a Königsluther, I fielded two Pounders, The Gunners w/ upgrade and Tank Busters w/ Air Drop.    Net result, KL survives with round half damage, both Pounders one-shotted and the infantry AT units suppressed by infantry protecting the KL's vulnerable rear.
  2. The key thing that makes heavies viable is the Mechanic special ability.   Heavies are difficult to destroy due to high health, but the cumulative effects of several hits could leave them Blind, Burning and Weaponless - except for the Mechanic SA, which automatically removes on condition.

That being said, would be very interested in seeing battle reports where non-heavies carried the day over heavies.

 

Lately I've been running a Red Devil platoon, so no armor rolls for them.  I've also taken out two in a game using hammers and Rhino on rear attacks.  Try to get a close in deployment.  That's seemed to work for me so far.

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blkdymnd said:

 

Lately I've been running a Red Devil platoon, so no armor rolls for them.  I've also taken out two in a game using hammers and Rhino on rear attacks.  Try to get a close in deployment.  That's seemed to work for me so far.

  Was your opponent a novice?  In my playgroup, a skilled commander will position an infantry unit directly behind the heavy to prevent rear close assault from Rhino+Hammers. 

As to Red Devils, how many did you field?  Also, I think the math favors Tank Busters or Tank Busters + Ozz over RD or RD + Action Jackson.

Math vs Armor 7 Heavy:

Tank Busters
3x 2/2 attacks at range 16.  Average 2 successes for 4 damage.  Heavy rolls 7 armor save dice, averaging 1-2 saves for net 2 damage.  Importantly the TBs roll all 4 dice on the vehicle damage table on page 44.

Importantly, Tank Busters have Jump, and can ignore intervening terrain & models on a move and enemy cannot react to move.

Red Devils
3x 1/2 attacks at range 12.  Average 1 success for 2 damage, no armor save. 

Action Jackson improves RD's firepower and survivability but I think the numbers still favor Tank Busters.

And do not forget that a skilled opponent should focus all his resources to destroy the any unit that can damage the Heavy.  In my experience, the best a single unit can hope for is one good attack before being decimated by opposing Snipers, Angela, Marcus+Gorillas, etc.

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Shadow4ce said:

… 33% chance to heal 1 wound, not worth it at all IMO, unless there is literally no other action the mechanic's unit can do). 

@Shadow4ce - I think you are missing the most important part of Mechanic.  Agree 33% chance to remove 1 wound is not an efficient use of command section.  The key is Mechanic also auto-removes one condition from the vehicle damage table on p.44.  Without a mechanic or two, a heavy runs a risk of becoming blinded, on fire, immobilized or without its main weapon - making it a much more balanced unit. 

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 Well the biggest thing Devils have over Busters is you can put Devils anywhere you need them.  I airdrop a full platoon usually, so 5 units with Action Jackson.  Normally have a Combat Platoon to back them up.

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blkdymnd said:

 Well the biggest thing Devils have over Busters is you can put Devils anywhere you need them.  I airdrop a full platoon usually, so 5 units with Action Jackson.  Normally have a Combat Platoon to back them up.

I am quite drunk right now so I apologize if I offend anyone. If you actually bought 5 units of Red Devils, and played a  game with them; it really doesn't matter who won in the end, because the biggest winner is the FFG marketing department. 

 

 

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slainex said:

blkdymnd said:

 

 Well the biggest thing Devils have over Busters is you can put Devils anywhere you need them.  I airdrop a full platoon usually, so 5 units with Action Jackson.  Normally have a Combat Platoon to back them up.

 

 

I am quite drunk right now so I apologize if I offend anyone. If you actually bought 5 units of Red Devils, and played a  game with them; it really doesn't matter who won in the end, because the biggest winner is the FFG marketing department. 

 

 

I had 3 units beforehand from Tactics.  2 more was no biggie.

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Dr.Cornelius said:

Shadow4ce said:

 

… 33% chance to heal 1 wound, not worth it at all IMO, unless there is literally no other action the mechanic's unit can do). 

 

@Shadow4ce - I think you are missing the most important part of Mechanic.  Agree 33% chance to remove 1 wound is not an efficient use of command section.  The key is Mechanic also auto-removes one condition from the vehicle damage table on p.44.  Without a mechanic or two, a heavy runs a risk of becoming blinded, on fire, immobilized or without its main weapon - making it a much more balanced unit. 

 

I wasn't forgetting it at all. Without that ability, I'd never bother using a mechanic, ever, unless as I stated, I literally had nothing left for that unit to do.  

The only effect you are suggesting that really makes me consider a mechanic necessary is the immobilized one, as a heavy which can't change it's facing is pretty worthless unless your opponent is an idiot.

Blind, while annoying, isn't a big deal if people are using at least 25% terrain, as it's rare you'll get a Sustained attack opportunity anyway. When blinded, I make lemonade from lemons, and take a shoot action in Command Phase and Unit Phase, unless I foresee having to do a move shoot to counter a threat, in which case I wouldn't have got a sustained attack anyway. 

Fire is a minor inconvenience for one turn (of your choosing), as the Walker can put it out itself, albeit at the cost of one action. Saturday, my daughter actually put off putting one out on her Ludwig for a turn to put the coup de grâce on the pounder which put her on fire. The same pounder had been put on fire by her the turn before. Her opponent used his command squad only action in the command phase to put out the Pounder's fire, allowing her to get her SturmPioneres up close without fear of retaliation and torched them. 

The odds of the main gun being taken out are nearly astronomical. First, your opponent has to roll at least 3 hits on the attack roll. Then, they have to roll exactly 3 hits on however many attack dice there were which rolled hits. Finally, they have to roll a hit on a single die. Those are odds where if it were to occur, I'd laugh, congratulate my opponent on their good fortune, and then have a hilarious story to tell about a very fun game. 

My argument still stands, the mechanic isn't broken. The medic removing suppression is more useful, IMO, and a better use of a command squads action. Plus, if you get lucky, you get not only one more wound back, but a weapon or two or three as well. 

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blkdymnd said:

 Well the biggest thing Devils have over Busters is you can put Devils anywhere you need them.  I airdrop a full platoon usually, so 5 units with Action Jackson.  Normally have a Combat Platoon to back them up.

Sad if Phaser the only weapon type that can balance an opposing heavy.  What are the Germans to do?

Air Drop is strong, but in my experience Jump is at least as useful over the course of a battle.  Take two heavy platoons and you can Air Drop two units of Tank Busters, one with Ozz and the other with Rhino (for shared Berserk re-rolls)

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Well Axis players I don't know if this makes you feel any better but I have yet to lose a game of DW with my Axis and I don't even own a heavy.

 

The trick is either A. Isolating it or B. Ignoring it.

 

If your opponent wants to waste his command squad on repairing a super heavy every turn then that makes them a high priority for sniper teams and Angela, it only takes a turn or two to wipe out the whole command section thus making the super heavy ripe for secondary effects. 

Heavy Laser grenadiers sustaining fire on a heavy mech will quickly rack up damage as well your Zombies and Apes.  For the amount of points they spend on a heavy mech you can afford 4 Squads of Zombies plus Grenadier X if they take the howitzers.  1 turn of zombie punching can roll 10 dice per zombie squad (so 40 dice total if all 4 get into punching range) While I don't believe in the math of average rolling that should put a dent in the mech (Especially if you can get 1 squad + Gren X in the rear of the mech) 

 

In the end I am not going to say it's easy to play Non-heavy vs Heavy Platoons but if you utilize your tools correctly you can quickly render a heavy mech useless, and if they take the fireball pattern you are allowed to giggle as all it takes is one movement damaged result they cant repair (because you've sniped / zombied their command squad) and it's now a huge waste of points.

 - End of Line -

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Dr.Cornelius said:

blkdymnd said:

 

 Well the biggest thing Devils have over Busters is you can put Devils anywhere you need them.  I airdrop a full platoon usually, so 5 units with Action Jackson.  Normally have a Combat Platoon to back them up.

 

Sad if Phaser the only weapon type that can balance an opposing heavy.  What are the Germans to do?

 

Air Drop is strong, but in my experience Jump is at least as useful over the course of a battle.  Take two heavy platoons and you can Air Drop two units of Tank Busters, one with Ozz and the other with Rhino (for shared Berserk re-rolls)

I have other examples.  Devils are just what I've been running lately.  Chef can cripple one a bit.  They are not the most mobile things in the world, it's not hard to outflank one with jump troops (if they want to waste points by hanging someone at the back of the walker, so be it).

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