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OptimusPrime21

Core Set is not RARE anymore this is disappointing “JOE VS SIGRID” shipping soon!!

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 As a collector and one of the first gamers to buy into the game to get the core set when it was $68. I like the fact that everyone doesn't have Joe and Sigrid. It is like having a rare card in MTG. I would like to see more rare units. There are rare units in Warhammer and this would be a good opportunity to do it here. I understand that Warfare drove up to the core set to a crazy price (that I benefited from because I had an unopened core set), but I still like the RARE factor. Some day I hope to bring my army to a tournament and someone say dang that guy has Bazooka Joe. I think rare units are important in keeping gamers interested in the game. It creates a second market controlled buy the players.

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 Trouble is for every one person who has a rare model there will be hundreds of people totally pissed off that they can't use all the models available.  This is a wargame not a CCG and everything should be available to all.  How would you feel if you didn't have a Joe, pretty crap I should imagine like I was when there were heroes only available to the US tourney's.

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Man… to each his own… but this "collector" mentality sort of disgusts me a bit.

You were lucky to buy the core set at an insanely low price; you already benefitted from hoarding an unopened box until the high demand and low offer increased the price considerably; and now you complain about other people being able to buy your precious "rare" heroes for a ridiculously higher price? Man, that's kinda sick. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun. Where's the fun in dangling your "exclusive" hero in the face of someone who simply wasn't given the opportunity to buy it? Would you really feel better about the game (or yourself) by hearing someone say "Dang! That guy has a Bazooka Joe." ?

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BattleTactics.tv Group said:

 As a collector and one of the first gamers to buy into the game to get the core set when it was $68. I like the fact that everyone doesn't have Joe and Sigrid. It is like having a rare card in MTG. I would like to see more rare units. There are rare units in Warhammer and this would be a good opportunity to do it here. I understand that Warfare drove up to the core set to a crazy price (that I benefited from because I had an unopened core set), but I still like the RARE factor. Some day I hope to bring my army to a tournament and someone say dang that guy has Bazooka Joe. I think rare units are important in keeping gamers interested in the game. It creates a second market controlled buy the players.

Because I don't know how to do multi-quotes, I'll address this in order.  Ahem.

1. Congratulations, you're awesome because you bought a game first.

2. I'm not huge into wargaming and stuff, but I get the impression doing anything the way Games Workshop does is a bad idea.  I don't want that for Dust Tactics.

3. I sure hope #1 happens so you can feel as awesome as you are.

4. "It creates a second market controlled by the people with the most money."  FTFY

 

 

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I am not trying to come off has a jerk. I am one of Dust's biggest fans. I also don't want a pat on the back for being one of the first players to believe in the quality of game Paolo created and FFG has continued. I invest 100 of hours into providing reviews and unboxings for the Dust community to help players with their decision on what they might like and where they could save money. 


I gained from having multiple copies of the core set, but there was no hoarding involved. Before Dust Warfare (2 months Ago) local games stores could not give the game away. You could go into any game store and see at lease two copies on the shelf. At christmas time you could buy every unit and both cores sets for $350. I believe this game would be great so I bought a couple to start up my army and saved one for later. It is not my fault others waited till Dust Warfare came out to see if it was going to be any good. It was my gain and also the stores gain at the time. When I sold the other core set for a profit where do you think the money went into the bank, no I invested it right back into the game. A major part of my investment in the game is to make sure it is successful. 

There are casual gamers that just want everything now and cheap. Thats the good thing about Dust Tactics it provides both of the those qualities. By no means do I want Dust to turn into GW, but give credit were credit is due. I would love to be playing this game in 15 years. (AT-43 anyone) There is a lot of things that make a game successful game play, unit updating, and miniature depths, but the Hobby aspect is huge. You don't have a warm fuzzy feeling when you spend hours painting your miniatures and someone says nice paint job! Part of the hobby fun is collecting RARE Items. Why do people spend hours on WOW or Everquest. Even collect baseball cards. There needs to be some collector element to the game to fullfil the hobbyist aspect of Wargaming. (Second Market) Ya RARE might cost more but it doesn't mean these items give you an advantage to the game. They give players something to shot for. They can also show others how much time and investment you have put into the hobby you love. 

We all have opinions and I like to hear them all. My opinion is it was great to see a couple RARE items out there for the game. If you walked into a store or came across one on eBay you just had to have it to complete your set. I guess now a days everyone just wants to go on amazon and have it shipped and delivered in two day for $5.  

BattleTactics.tv

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As I said, it's a matter of different mentalities. And I just don't understand the collector's mentality that takes pleasure in simply having something that other fans either could not afford or missed their chance of acquiring. Sure, enjoying some compliments on a nice paint job makes sense to me, after all it's the fruit of your hard work, skill and creativity. But compliments on having bought something that's either too expensive for casual fans or just isn't available anymore? Don't really see the personal pride in that.

But I don't mean to attack you personally or anything, I was just honestly stumped at the philosophy behind this thread, it's just not something that I've ever really encountered before. You do nice work with your reviews and all.

 

PS: Another thing I don't get is this constant worry people voice about "I hope I'll still be playing this game in 10 years". What's to fear? You already own a great game, why would you NOT be playing it in 10 years? Even if the line is cancelled tomorrow, sod it! The game is awesome, keep playing it.

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Loophole Master said:

As I said, it's a matter of different mentalities. And I just don't understand the collector's mentality that takes pleasure in simply having something that other fans either could not afford or missed their chance of acquiring. Sure, enjoying some compliments on a nice paint job makes sense to me, after all it's the fruit of your hard work, skill and creativity. But compliments on having bought something that's either too expensive for casual fans or just isn't available anymore? Don't really see the personal pride in that.

But I don't mean to attack you personally or anything, I was just honestly stumped at the philosophy behind this thread, it's just not something that I've ever really encountered before. You do nice work with your reviews and all.

 

PS: Another thing I don't get is this constant worry people voice about "I hope I'll still be playing this game in 10 years". What's to fear? You already own a great game, why would you NOT be playing it in 10 years? Even if the line is cancelled tomorrow, sod it! The game is awesome, keep playing it.

Cool I value your opinion and think you away provide useful information to the the dust community!

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 Just to clarify, Games Workshop does not release "rare" models in the sense being referred to.  The promo minis and the Games Day figures are cool and unique, but they don't have any mechanical bearing on the game itself.  I have a really cool looking orc warboss from a Games Day sitting on my desk looking at me with crossed arms.  In the game, he's just another warboss.

To my knowledge, the only games that have "rare" figures that legitimately affect the tournament scene are collectable games like Magic or the now defunct DDM.  That kind of thing really doesn't fly in traditional miniatures games, where the victor is supposed to be determined by gameplay rather than finding the "rare" figures.

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Loophole Master said:

thing I don't get is this constant worry people voice about "I hope I'll still be playing this game in 10 years". What's to fear? You already own a great game, why would you NOT be playing it in 10 years? Even if the line is cancelled tomorrow, sod it! The game is awesome, keep playing it.

Unfortunately that is not true of your typical wargamer, they need new stuff to keep up the intrest, new models to paint and play.  Without new models we will see shiney new toy's on the internet to get for other games, buy them, paint them and then play with them.  The old favourite then gathers dust in the attic.

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FFG has stated before that as far as Dust is concerned, they do not want "rare" miniatures, that they want the entire line to always be easily accessible.  When asked awhile back about Joe and Sigrid, they said that the issue would be addressed.  There should certainly be no surprises to see these 2 figures available again.

Also, I want a game to be won based on skill, not on who has the most money or who got into the game first.  Right now, any player can make a competetive Dust Tactics or Dust Warfare army on a fairly limited budget, even if they're just getting into it now, and that is something I don't want to change.

Loophole, I agree that even if Dust were to come to an end, I would hope I'm still playing it a long time from now (I look forward to when my 2 year old son is old enough to play with me.)  At the same time though, I really am enjoying painting my units, and if Dust comes to a close, I will probably migrate to another game just to keep up my painting hobby, and I would expect my interest and excitement would naturally migrate to the new game.  And those who do most of their gaming at local gaming clubs or in tournaments will find they have very few opportunities to play if the Dust line ends.  That said, I really just play with family and friends, so I'm with you - if FFG stops producing Dust Tactics, I've still got a great game that can be pulled out for years to come.

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 I guess I have been out voted. Maybe the win, win was to just have Joe or Sigrid come in the new pose only. That way you still get both miniatures, but for the collectors if you wanted to pay extra for the originals thats up to you.

PS. I don't see any problem right now finding Joe or Sigrid on ebay or other sale websites. Though the core set seems really high right now it is actually at a normal price. When FFG bought the rights to Dust from AEG. AEG had a crazy deal worked out with its manufacture, that FFG was not able to get. AEG was sitting on a warehouse full of these core sets and was able to sell them for cheap. This is why FFG is not remaking the core set (basicly). 

 

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felkor said:

FFG has stated before that as far as Dust is concerned, they do not want "rare" miniatures, that they want the entire line to always be easily accessible.  When asked awhile back about Joe and Sigrid, they said that the issue would be addressed.  There should certainly be no surprises to see these 2 figures available again.

My money is on Joe and Sigrid being included in the next wave of hero packs, whenever they're released.  And hopefully another Axis hero in power armor.

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Loophole Master said:

If that's the case, then I'm proud not to be a wargamer…

Don't worry, at some point you will be turned and hoard unpainted bits of metal and plastic in the loft like the rest of us :P

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AngryMojo said:

 

My money is on Joe and Sigrid being included in the next wave of hero packs, whenever they're released.  And hopefully another Axis hero in power armor.



I hope not - I don't really want to pay to have duplicates.  It might be ok if they are in different poses, but I would prefer they just get sold together as a box set (similar to these premium editions but not prepainted).  I've bought them once, I don't particularly want to buy them again.

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Loophole Master said:

If that's the case, then I'm proud not to be a wargamer…

Your view is that of a mature wargamer, as opposed to a fad wargamer that has to have new and shiny to enjoy their toys.

I prefer your style of wargamer.

I'm also disgusted by the collectible mentality for wargame figures.

There are people who love the elitist "I've got a rare figure you don't have," capability, but I see every LE figure that goes to the secondary market as damaging for the game.

If players are spending more money to scalpers so they can get the LE figures, it means that money is not going to the game company producing those miniatures at more than their far lower MSRP for the initial release.  If someone buys a $20 LE figure, and sells it to another player for $200 on the secondary market, that additional $180 that might have gone to the game company has disappeared into the scalper's pocket, and does nothing to support the game or game company.

I've seen people ask for LE figures on other game company forums, and companies decide to go that route, and it always disappoints me.

I've seen players frustrated by not being able to afford an LE figure, and blaming the game company for it, frustrated by other players that act like their LE figure makes them special, and not enjoying the game because of it, and several other instances where the LE figure causes friction and frustration.

The only marginally positive thing LE figures does is stroke the egos of elitists that can somehow feel they are better because they got to buy a figure other people couldn't.  Anyone who can feel that way needs to do some serious growing up.  Any game company that wants to cater to that mentality is little better.

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 I am staggered that anyone would want restrictions on what units are available to other players.

I am hoping FFG will even do releases of heroes from the expansions, as there are some (e.g. Markus) that I really want, but don't want to have to buy the expansion to get.

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I'd have to agree with the majority here.  Dust is really the only miniatures game that i'm willing to play for a variety of reasons, most dealing with associated cost.  As AngryMojo has told me on countless occasions, I'm firmly in the "casual gamer" bunch of consumers.  That being said I have played a varety of "collectible" games, MTG included, and have found that for me the most important part of any game is how or even if it is balanced.  Simply put, I have no problem with "rare" or unique poses or eitions of a model, as long as mechanically they play the same.

Just my 2 cents.

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Gimp said:

Loophole Master said:

 

If that's the case, then I'm proud not to be a wargamer…

 

 

Your view is that of a mature wargamer, as opposed to a fad wargamer that has to have new and shiny to enjoy their toys.

I prefer your style of wargamer.

I'm also disgusted by the collectible mentality for wargame figures.

There are people who love the elitist "I've got a rare figure you don't have," capability, but I see every LE figure that goes to the secondary market as damaging for the game.

If players are spending more money to scalpers so they can get the LE figures, it means that money is not going to the game company producing those miniatures at more than their far lower MSRP for the initial release.  If someone buys a $20 LE figure, and sells it to another player for $200 on the secondary market, that additional $180 that might have gone to the game company has disappeared into the scalper's pocket, and does nothing to support the game or game company.

I've seen people ask for LE figures on other game company forums, and companies decide to go that route, and it always disappoints me.

I've seen players frustrated by not being able to afford an LE figure, and blaming the game company for it, frustrated by other players that act like their LE figure makes them special, and not enjoying the game because of it, and several other instances where the LE figure causes friction and frustration.

The only marginally positive thing LE figures does is stroke the egos of elitists that can somehow feel they are better because they got to buy a figure other people couldn't.  Anyone who can feel that way needs to do some serious growing up.  Any game company that wants to cater to that mentality is little better.

 

I agree.  In fact, I was thinking about springing for several of the 40k 6th Edition "collector" & "gamer" LE just to make some money doing a bit of scalping.  

OTOH, those kind of things are fairly hefty profit margins for the companies, just a question of cash in hand or maybe cash down the road at some point. 

 

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I see it as an illusion of cash on hand, following the old 'penny wise but pound foolish,' adage.

If a company puts out a LE figure for $20, with a hefty profit margin, they get a hefty profit margin on each $20 purchase.  Let's call it a $10 profit for simplicity's sake.

If a scalper buys 20 of those, the company gets a $200 profit.

If the scalper then sells each one for $200, they get an $1600 profit on their $400 investment.

That $1600 dollars came from people who were interested in products from that game company, and so from their gaming budgets.

The game company made $200, but lost the profits they could have made from the $1600 that went to the scalper.  Even if they only recieved a $5 from each alternate sale (again, as a quick example), they lost $400 in profits thay could have made with other sales.

Getting $200 to lose $400 more is not really good business. 

If they'd done an early release, with a later general release of the same figure, the scalper could still get something, though less than from a LE figure, but the company would not lose as much.

Add the bad feeling generated for players who didn't get the LE figures, and they not only lose profits that go to the scalpers, but also could lose continued revenue by having frustrated players leave the game.

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