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H.B.M.C.

Ogryn - What they are vs what they should be…

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H.B.M.C. said:

 

So my eventual solution would be:
 

  • +10 Strength
  • +10 Toughness
  • -15 Intelligence
  • -10 Agility
  • Size (Enormous)
  • Unnatural Strength (+4)
  • Unnatural Toughness (+4)
  • Wounds: 1d5+25


The Ogryn in the Chapter 11 would have a base starting wounds of 30, plus whatever edits these changes would require.


But those are my thoughts on what Ogryn should be, however they may not be your thoughts. So, I'd like to hear other solutions to this problem and even people who don't think the Ogryn (as written) are a problem. This is a big thing to get right, so let's go over it carefully.

BYE

 

 

Having read the comments here is my idea, let me know what you think.

+10 Strength and +10 Toughness and -15 Intelligence are fine. And with out the incress in size the -10 to Agility isn't needed which I will deal more with to follow.

Size (Hulking) works well as it makes them the same as Space Marines in armor which in fluff they are only slightly bigger than them in armor, and most orks (even Warbosses) are only high end Hulking, as the Chimera is Size (Enormous) I think that’s a bit too much.

Both Unnatural Strength and Toughness ought to be (+3) as I believe the Black Crusade book said that the old (x2) is akin to (+2-+4) I think +3 is a good increase without over shadowing the other PC.

Wounds I like your idea, 1d5+25 is good I think.

I like the thoughts about the Ripper you all have put up. But doing that to my mind means they need to have Bulging Biceps and I think they ought to have them anyway.

Also I agree that they shouldn’t get a comrade but should get something like this for maybe around 2000 exp:

Bionic Ogryn Neural Enhancement (Very Rare);

Bionic Ogryn Neural Enhancement, also known as Biochemical Ogryn Neural Enhancement is a procedure sometimes performed on Ogryns who have demonstrated intellect and insight above the norm. Using a combination of Augmetic implants, biochemical treatments, electro-shock therapy and surgery, the subject’s brain is enhanced, allowing it to operate more efficiently than a normal Ogryn’s brain. An Ogryn who has undergone this procedure is known as a BONE’ead, a title which is worn with pride by those granted it.
An Ogryn BONE’ead gains a Permanent +5 Intelligence. With an additional +5 to Fellowship when dealing with other Ogryn.

This doesn’t offset the -15 completely but does make them a little less stupid and gives them a boost to Fellowship when doing what they are meant to,

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I'm alright with baby ogryn. 

Very few people are going to play up the disadvantages.  In my group, I have a couple of guys that forego buying intelligence to boost combat stats, and will spend hour upon hour justifying how they might be able to come up with some incredible plan.  Having a lesser combat monster makes curbing them easier.

While the argument has been made that a tank or a lascannon wielding guardsman could easily dispatch the ogryn, it lacks what happens in places where tanks and lascannons cannot go.  The ogryn will not be operating at diminished capacity for not having a tank or lascannon. 

Campaign with one for a couple of months and see if it's still just a baby at the end.

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vogue69 said:

also keep in mind, that Frenzy gives a -20 on int. So any ogryn who takes  or goes frenzy will feint.

Frenzy gives a penalty, not characteristic damage. A frenzied Ogryn doesn't faint anymore than a guy in Terminator Armor gets paralyzed for having a low Agi score. It's clarified in the BC errata if you don't believe me.

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Armand23 said:

I'm alright with baby ogryn. 

Very few people are going to play up the disadvantages.  In my group, I have a couple of guys that forego buying intelligence to boost combat stats, and will spend hour upon hour justifying how they might be able to come up with some incredible plan.  Having a lesser combat monster makes curbing them easier.

While the argument has been made that a tank or a lascannon wielding guardsman could easily dispatch the ogryn, it lacks what happens in places where tanks and lascannons cannot go.  The ogryn will not be operating at diminished capacity for not having a tank or lascannon. 

Campaign with one for a couple of months and see if it's still just a baby at the end.

 

First, I can't think of anywhere an Ogryn could fit that a Lascannon couldn't…

 

Second, the problem with 'Baby Ogryn' is that they don't have a chance to become 'adult' ones without some more unnaturals.  Remember, this is a race that's as big as the largest Orks… and just as tough and strong.

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Dulahan said:

Second, the problem with 'Baby Ogryn' is that they don't have a chance to become 'adult' ones without some more unnaturals.  Remember, this is a race that's as big as the largest Orks… and just as tough and strong.

Which is why I'd say we need extra Unnaturals as xp sinks for Ogryns, which should achieve both making them eventually as strong as they should be without being too strong at the start and keep them relatively "simple" individuals (if you spend all your xp on Unnatural and combat skills, well, that doesn't leave a lot for Scholastic Lore and for those Fellowship advances)

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MorioMortis said:

Dulahan said:

Second, the problem with 'Baby Ogryn' is that they don't have a chance to become 'adult' ones without some more unnaturals.  Remember, this is a race that's as big as the largest Orks… and just as tough and strong.

 

Which is why I'd say we need extra Unnaturals as xp sinks for Ogryns, which should achieve both making them eventually as strong as they should be without being too strong at the start and keep them relatively "simple" individuals (if you spend all your xp on Unnatural and combat skills, well, that doesn't leave a lot for Scholastic Lore and for those Fellowship advances)

 

Hey, if it was possible.  Wouldn't complain a bit.  As it stands though, it's not an option.  Just make sure an Ogryn PC can after a bunch of XP be as strong and tough, unnaturals included, as Ghazgkul Thrakka.  Again, a VERY long process to get there.  And an Ogryn will probably never quite compete by simple dint of not being able to get the Mega Armor!

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Hate to bring up the Ripper Gun again…but shouldn't it's rarity be harder to obtain than Common. This is a weapon that a tiny, tiny fraction of the IG use (indeed, only Ogryns), so should it not be appropriately difficult to get a hold of UNLESS you're obtaining it for an Ogryn.

I only ask that because, as far as I know, there is nothing to stop the squad requisitioning equipment, not making use of them and 'losing' them on the black market if they wish. And somebody, somewhere will want a Ripper Gun.

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@Dulahan

First, I can't think of anywhere an Ogryn could fit that a Lascannon couldn't…

I can, but I can't think of anywhere like that where an Ogryn would want to fit on account of It Dark In Dere!

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I feel the ogryn was "tamed" because he had to fit the powerlevel of the other classes, so I would considering dropping the Ogryn completely and making him some "mid to end-game" comrade. A bullet soaking bodyguard for a commissar, or the ever so helpful nurse for the squads doc.

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A lot of the drawbacks for the Ogryn aren't really mechanical in nature. You'd have to have a player who understands that his character is thick as two short planks and to act appropriately.

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Cifer said:

@Dulahan

First, I can't think of anywhere an Ogryn could fit that a Lascannon couldn't…

I can, but I can't think of anywhere like that where an Ogryn would want to fit on account of It Dark In Dere!

 

I can't since an MP Lascannon+backpack+guardsman is still half, or less than half, the size of a grown Ogryn.

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Come on now…way too iconic to drop!

Hell, dreadnaughts have been included in Deathwatch, haha.

Tamed sure…and understandable as a starting character but it'd be very easy to add in Ogryn only advancement options to bring them to where they should be as they become more experienced.

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Tremere777 said:

-15 int, clumsy and "but it dark in dere" offer plenty of mechanical negatives.

 

True, but certainly in my group, players playing low intelligence (or even dumb characters!) get around this by voicing ideas/concerns etc 'out of character'. I usually smack it down, but you do miss it sometimes. Simple fact is, in my experience not many players are willing to play idiot characters properly. Tis a shame.

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Not to mention 'combat balance' isn't something that's  been strived for before in this game.  Black Crusade has Marines vs Normals…  the Normals have things they're good if not better at.  But they don't really stand up to the Marines in terms of how "Killy" they get. 

And again, in major combat situations, it is likely the squad will have things that make an Ogryn seem trivial (Tank…  Heavy Weapons.  Etc),   In many ways a correct Ogryn is their protection against sudden BIG STUFF getting too close to shoot.

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I think that we all can agree in one thing - Ogryns in Only War are not wh40k Ogryns at all. Their S/T/W stats are a joke. Basically slightly upgraded human. I think that now FFG has only two solutions. They can completly remove Ogryn speciality from OW or they can give them justice = make them fluffy. And I will repeat myself again because some people keep saying that unbalance nonsense - Ogryns can only outshine other PCs in S/T/W stats = in combat. In all other situations they will and should suck because it is what they are - enormous, dumb brutes that can be dangerous to even SM hero but are next to useless in everything else. And that is exactly how they balance themselves in OW.

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I think you are wrong:
Game balance is important and what I'm realy missing is the Bonehead implant. As for strength and toughness they can both buy the cheap, same goes for wounds.
A starting ogryn is idd slightly less strong and tough as a marine (SB 8, TB 8, 20 wounds). Your starting Ogryn will have a SB 6 and TB 8 and approx. 18 wounds. Including the starting XP this could be SB 7 and TB 7 with 18 wounds which very close.
The maximum an Ogryn could get is SB 9 and TB 9 and 38 wounds, a match for any Space Marine hero. 

Don't focus to much on the fluff, it is a game. Regarding the fluff we have Marine being able to perform insane feats of strength surpassing any ogryn and making them look like a child. So yeah, Ogryns are perhaps slightly weaker than marines, if you don't like that I think you have made your point. But they can be very strong and powerful creatures, as strong or even stronger than space marines, but that will cost XP.

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how about these changes:

- Scrap the comrade, make it so Ogryns can raise their unnatural TG and STR like psykers raise their psyrating: Rating x 300 or something like that. So for achieving unnatura str. 3 they would have to pay 900 exp to reach un4 1200.

- make it so because of their size weapon categories count as one lower -> unable to wield pistols, basic count as pistol, heavy count as basic and vehicle count as heavy.

- make Ripper-Gun Heavy. Give them a Slug option, removes scatter gives 3 pen and tearing.

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Santiago said:

 

I think you are wrong:
Game balance is important and what I'm realy missing is the Bonehead implant. As for strength and toughness they can both buy the cheap, same goes for wounds.
A starting ogryn is idd slightly less strong and tough as a marine (SB 8, TB 8, 20 wounds). Your starting Ogryn will have a SB 6 and TB 8 and approx. 18 wounds. Including the starting XP this could be SB 7 and TB 7 with 18 wounds which very close.
The maximum an Ogryn could get is SB 9 and TB 9 and 38 wounds, a match for any Space Marine hero. 

Don't focus to much on the fluff, it is a game. Regarding the fluff we have Marine being able to perform insane feats of strength surpassing any ogryn and making them look like a child. So yeah, Ogryns are perhaps slightly weaker than marines, if you don't like that I think you have made your point. But they can be very strong and powerful creatures, as strong or even stronger than space marines, but that will cost XP.

 

 

1. Read my post again. I never said that balance is not important. I said that Ogryn will balance his high [and comletly fluffy] S/T/W stats because he will suck in everything except combat. You will not use him to resolve tech problems, that is a job for Mechanicum Priest. You will not use him for morale speech, that is a job for Commissar or Munitorum Priest etc. etc. Each speciality has its uses and things in where they are hopeless. It is exatcly same thing with Ogryns.

2. Let say that I would agree that PC Ogryns can eventually became real Ogryns we know from fluff. But we still have NPC Ogryns with silly S/T/W stats. Would you still say that fluff is not important because it is a game? It is wh40k game so I would expect that it stay true to its background. What kind of game balance require that Ork Stormboy is tougher than Ogryn?

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 Okay,

 

Lets say you want to increase the physique of an Ogryn. Letsagree that they are about the same size as a Sentinal, a sentinal is hulking according to the description of the vehicle. The next step, enormous is really a bit bigger than that. My revised ogryn, with game balance in mind would be:

So my eventual solution would be:

+10 Strength
+10 Toughness
-10 Intelligence
-5 Agility
-5 Fel
Size (Hulking)
Unnatural Strength (+3)
Unnatural Toughness (+3)
Wounds: 1d5+20

I would also drop the Ballistics Skill aptitude.
 

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vogue69 said:

how about these changes:

- Scrap the comrade, make it so Ogryns can raise their unnatural TG and STR like psykers raise their psyrating: Rating x 300 or something like that. So for achieving unnatura str. 3 they would have to pay 900 exp to reach un4 1200.

- make it so because of their size weapon categories count as one lower -> unable to wield pistols, basic count as pistol, heavy count as basic and vehicle count as heavy.

- make Ripper-Gun Heavy. Give them a Slug option, removes scatter gives 3 pen and tearing.



As for the slug option, I would use the one from Hostile Acquisitions (+1 Dam, +2 Pen) but increase the range bij 50%

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