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Vonpenguin

Is 20$ worth it for just a beta?

97 posts in this topic

 Maybe the best solution should to give a discount not only on the pdf version, also on the printed version. Maybe not 20$ of course, but i am sure that a lot of people would buy the beta if they get a 10 or 15 $ on the printed version.

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CodenameXXIII said:

 Maybe the best solution should to give a discount not only on the pdf version, also on the printed version. Maybe not 20$ of course, but i am sure that a lot of people would buy the beta if they get a 10 or 15 $ on the printed version.

But then surely the best solution is just the easiest: don't charge at all. In the end it's the same result.

Anyway it would be impossible for them to administer a discount on the book unless they sold it directly which won't happen, not least of all becauise it will upset the retail market.

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[ADMIN: Edited for content. Feel free to voice your opinions without the personal attacks.]

FFG isn't performing shady business practices again, or trying to "gouge" the fanbase. The people who will buy the Beta are the people who were going to buy the finished .pdf anyway. 

[ADMIN: More content removed.]

so what are you supposed to do with the Beta (not buy it, maybe?). Noone is forcing you, or anyone else, but you'd think they were. And adults apparently take responsibility for how they spend their money.

[ADMIN: More content removed.]

And your complaints about .pdf's in general are something that should be directed at the entire gaming industry, not just FFG, by a long shot.

And yeah, buying the Beta doesn't obligate FFG to listen to any of the tips and corrections that people send them. Good. I hope they'll listen when they idea is good, or the correction valid. But it's been previously established that these forums aren't exactly the place for constructive criticism (wild accusations and rude overreactions, sure). Like all those times that people say FFG should adopt WW's publishing style (when I know for a fact that few forum posters have any experience at all with WW products). I couldn't imagine the mess of a game we'd have, if they had to listen to everything someone on the forums said.

Now getting back to Pathfinder for a second. Their books should be only about $10 to have in print. Pathfinder still uses 3.5e (still better than 4e, but we're moving on to 5e now). It's not cheap out of the kindness of their heart, but simple business practices. Same reason you wouldn't see someone trying to sell 2nd edition material for full price, even if they went and made a bunch of new expansions and adventures for it. And as for the PRD, that's kinda expected since Open Game License pretty much requires them to slap the hard mechanics up somewhere for people to read for free. Wizards did it with D&D too, I probably still have the 3.x System Reference Document that I downloaded years ago sitting on a harddrive somewhere. It's pretty much something that applied to all of 3.0/3.5, some business strategy to try and get more third party publishers in on the game, more easily. Go read the OGL right quick, you'll see right where it says they have to make the mechanics available for free. I'm not saying it's not nice. I'm saying don't be quick to hand out credit, getting this stuff for free is something that Wizards' lawyers already decided for Paizo, when they wrote up OGL.

bladerunner_35 said:

I too was flabbergasted initially when they had not included the paragraph about the discount on the final product.

 

Well my apoligies then to all those I insulted about the paragraphs earlier. Either option was likely, to be frank. But yeah, Drive Thru does have a habit of minor screwups (like not posting complete text and all right away). The 0.99 cent Exalted April Fool's Day product from WW a few years back generated such a riot on the forums, because people were cheated a WHOLE dollar. When it was really just wasn't uploaded to DriveThru properly. Didn't stop people from setting the boards on fire with their unjustified rage though… so you see where I'm coming from a bit better.

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To those of you who just tuned in:

signoftheserpent = FFG's naysmith. Don't take him too seriously. He will still be on this forum long after everyone else has left. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Blood Pact said:

 

[ADMIN: Edited for content.]
 
FFG isn't performing shady business practices again, or trying to "gouge" the fanbase. The people who will buy the Beta are the people who were going to buy the finished .pdf anyway.
 
[ADMIN: More content removed.]
 
Noone is forcing you, or anyone else, but you'd think they were. And adults apparently take responsibility for how they spend their money.
 
[ADMIN: More content removed.]
 
And your complaints about .pdf's in general are something that should be directed at the entire gaming industry, not just FFG, by a long shot.

And yeah, buying the Beta doesn't obligate FFG to listen to any of the tips and corrections that people send them. Good. I hope they'll listen when they idea is good, or the correction valid. But it's been previously established that these forums aren't exactly the place for constructive criticism (wild accusations and rude overreactions, sure). Like all those times that people say FFG should adopt WW's publishing style (when I know for a fact that few forum posters have any experience at all with WW products). I couldn't imagine the mess of a game we'd have, if they had to listen to everything someone on the forums said.

Now getting back to Pathfinder for a second. Their books should be only about $10 to have in print. Pathfinder still uses 3.5e (still better than 4e, but we're moving on to 5e now). It's not cheap out of the kindness of their heart, but simple business practices. Same reason you wouldn't see someone trying to sell 2nd edition material for full price, even if they went and made a bunch of new expansions and adventures for it. And as for the PRD, that's kinda expected since Open Game License pretty much requires them to slap the hard mechanics up somewhere for people to read for free. Wizards did it with D&D too, I probably still have the 3.x System Reference Document that I downloaded years ago sitting on a harddrive somewhere. It's pretty much something that applied to all of 3.0/3.5, some business strategy to try and get more third party publishers in on the game, more easily. Go read the OGL right quick, you'll see right where it says they have to make the mechanics available for free. I'm not saying it's not nice. I'm saying don't be quick to hand out credit, getting this stuff for free is something that Wizards' lawyers already decided for Paizo, when they wrote up OGL.

bladerunner_35 said:

I too was flabbergasted initially when they had not included the paragraph about the discount on the final product.

 

Well my apoligies then to all those I insulted about the paragraphs earlier. Either option was likely, to be frank. But yeah, Drive Thru does have a habit of minor screwups (like not posting complete text and all right away). The 0.99 cent Exalted April Fool's Day product from WW a few years back generated such a riot on the forums, because people were cheated a WHOLE dollar. When it was really just wasn't uploaded to DriveThru properly. Didn't stop people from setting the boards on fire with their unjustified rage though… so you see where I'm coming from a bit better.

 

 

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/enabler

 

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 Now that the final PDF discount has been included, I think the offer is absolutely fine. Because that's what it is: An offer. Noone's forcing you to buy it if the conditions are unacceptable to you. Just wait for the finished product then as you would have done before.

The weighing of these conditions will vary for different persons, obviously - if you're going to GenCon (if the book came out at GenCon) the deal won't be as good. If you don't like PDFs, it's obviously not for you. If you're living in another part of the world than the USA, it's better. I know I always get the GenCon 40k books somewhen around… mid-January to February at best here. This beta lets me take a (hopefully) small hit in quality and get the game 3/4 of a year before I could get it otherwise even if I never write a single line of feedback to FFG. And maybe we'll be able to finally get a final version that needs neither an errata nor a large bottle of whisky to make the spelling errors go away. If all that's required for that is that some people pay a little sooner for something they'd pay for anyway, that's ok by me.

As for the question "why pay at all and not get it for free", I think N0-1 has hit the nail on the head: This is a nearly finished product. You can play with it. And since it's a physical game instead of one run on a server somewhere, FFG can't take away your access to it once it's given out. Neither is there the possibility of a bug so huge that your GM can't houserule around it. Think about it: Would Blizzard have done an Open Beta of Diablo III where everyone playing the beta could have continued to play the real game (minus the changes) for free? I do not think so.

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If you're living in another part of the world than the USA, it's better.

 

Speaking from Malaysia, I agree. Not everyone who plays RPGs lives in the States or has enough money to pay for delivery.

 

:
As for the question "why pay at all and not get it for free", I think N0-1 has hit the nail on the head: This is a nearly finished product. You can play with it. Neither is there the possibility of a bug so huge that your GM can't houserule around it. .

 

Again, I agree on all counts. I've never run a DH/RT etc. game using the 'default' setting anyway, so the lack of anything like that in the 'beta' is essentially $20 off for me.

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My personal thoughts is that this is a way for FFG to enter the Wiki age.

Since most information these days is open source sharing, the logical thing to do would be to allow all gamers to input their ideas to a final product.  Due to the ease of sharing of information, it would be more efficient and economical to have a wider range of ideas come together to make a better product.  Most games in the past were based on a relatively small group of play testers, and were then honed in from feedback from the wider world of players.   This is a way to make a more hands on and grassroots effort to have all players throw their feedback in at the beginning so that a nicer product can be made by release date.  Sure erratas will come out, but that is just part of the evolution of the game.  Look at how much the warhammer line has evolved from Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade, and now Only War.  By having more feedback and more testing by the players themselves, as well as anyone committed to making a better game, the end product cannot help but be excellent.

The more of a group effort, the better future products from FFG will be. 

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 But remember that you are asking to people to do a work for free. There are a lot of professionals that work for a fee: Correctors, editors, etc. Now you are asking to people to pay 20$ for a book and after that to send the erratas that the could find on the book.  A lot of people that work and have a contract could be Unemployment because now you have 100 people that will do your work for free (or after have payed 20$)

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$20 is steep for a Beta.

I bought it however. I can play the game with just this .pdf, assuming I don't mind providing the setting myself. So I can kind of see why they don't want to give it away.

It is about as finished/polished a product as many of the already ublished core books from FFG - though whether you think that is good or bad is up to you.

I applaud this move toward more extensive play-testing, because honestly, so far the rules have largely been sub-par in consistency and execution. We play 40k roleplay for the setting, not for the rules, though they are improving.

This beta version is full of bit and peices that need improvement, but the only way I see that happening is via extensive playtesting.

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CodenameXXIII said:

But remember that you are asking to people to do a work for free. There are a lot of professionals that work for a fee: Correctors, editors, etc. Now you are asking to people to pay 20$ for a book and after that to send the erratas that the could find on the book.  A lot of people that work and have a contract could be Unemployment because now you have 100 people that will do your work for free (or after have payed 20$)


The play-testers already do this and receive virtually no payment. Really $20 off the price of the final book is almost what the play-testers get.

And proof-reading a book completely is far more work than what's being asked here. Trust me.

BYE

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 @Avrelivs

Firstly, there's a dark-grey-on-light-grey edit button on the headline of your post, but that disappears after a few minutes. If it's too late, you can still use the heretek way: Click on the Report This Post button, then change the URL of the report screen from "…reportar…" to "…editar…"

(The fact that this actually works reinforces my opinion about the forum software, but then again, I certainly won't turn down a way to remedy shredded posts on a forum that produces them that often…)

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H.B.M.C. said:

CodenameXXIII said:

But remember that you are asking to people to do a work for free. There are a lot of professionals that work for a fee: Correctors, editors, etc. Now you are asking to people to pay 20$ for a book and after that to send the erratas that the could find on the book.  A lot of people that work and have a contract could be Unemployment because now you have 100 people that will do your work for free (or after have payed 20$)



The play-testers already do this and receive virtually no payment. Really $20 off the price of the final book is almost what the play-testers get.

And proof-reading a book completely is far more work than what's being asked here. Trust me.

BYE

 

It isn't $20 off the final book. It's a rebate if you buy the pdf.

Proof reading is what is being requested; one of the above forums is asking for people to provide proofread errors.

What we don't have is a guarantee these will be put into the final print and not used as a means to get an errata document out quick. That is what I believe this is about. Only War, imo, is still scheduled ofr the usual gencon release, hence the playtesting credits. As far as FFG is concerned, the work is done. I think they are merely anticipating a few minor issues that will be releated to a pdf and that they are doing us a favour by having that document ready insrtead of having to wait 6 months as with Black Crusade. Certainly no delay is better than 6 months, but paying $20 for the privilege of getting this?

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 I'm a very loyal FFG customer (I think I've spent over a thousand dollars on every single DH/RT/DW product - sorry Black Crusade - and assorted  board games), but I will not participate in this so-called "open" beta. I have zero interest in purchasing a PDF of the book down the line, and paying 20 dollars to participate in a "beta" in return for a discount on a future pdf version of the finished book is therefore useless to me. If it was going to be an open beta, it should've been an actual OPEN test, not a clumsily disguised way to get customers to pre-order the pdf version.

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peterstepon said:

 

My personal thoughts is that this is a way for FFG to enter the Wiki age.

Since most information these days is open source sharing, the logical thing to do would be to allow all gamers to input their ideas to a final product.  Due to the ease of sharing of information, it would be more efficient and economical to have a wider range of ideas come together to make a better product.  Most games in the past were based on a relatively small group of play testers, and were then honed in from feedback from the wider world of players.   This is a way to make a more hands on and grassroots effort to have all players throw their feedback in at the beginning so that a nicer product can be made by release date.  Sure erratas will come out, but that is just part of the evolution of the game.  Look at how much the warhammer line has evolved from Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade, and now Only War.  By having more feedback and more testing by the players themselves, as well as anyone committed to making a better game, the end product cannot help but be excellent.

The more of a group effort, the better future products from FFG will be. 

 

 

No.

It's simply, sadly, not that great of an idea. I don't want 100 random people from the forums designing my games, thankyou. Even 100 random people who bought in to a Beta, or whatever, and paid for the priviledge. We've discussed the feasability of the designers listening to the customers ideas on these forums, in another thread.. and, some were more optomistic than others. I wasn't one of them, to be up front about it.

You will get negative feedback over material that is perfectly fine, both "fluff" and "crunch". This was the case of the Sidereal 2nd edition splatbook, in Exalted. There were such tirades against the 1e book, the next writer to come along assumed the voices on the forum were correct, and then they took the nerfbat to it so hard it came out as one of the worst written books of 2e (yeah, yeah, the 1e book wasn't perfect, but most of the problem was because the other splatbooks weren't as well written, as opposed to Sids). That's what going to the players can all to easily result in. Furthermore there's too many conflicting ideas and interpretations about how something should be, even with an already established setting like 40K (or Exalted). AluminiumWolf, for one non-hostile example, and myself both love Space Marines a lot, but you'd never get a game off the ground if the two of us were working together on it.

I'd rather leave the job up to people who do this thing professionally, as a job. They take it a lot more seriously that way. The current group of writers that FFG has working on things have greatly satisfied me with what they've produced, in the overall general (it's not as if I like everything). And will certainly do a better job than some random kid they found on the forums, who really thinks they game needs to include this kewl idea of his.

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Blood Pact said:

Now getting back to Pathfinder for a second. Their books should be only about $10 to have in print. Pathfinder still uses 3.5e (still better than 4e, but we're moving on to 5e now). It's not cheap out of the kindness of their heart, but simple business practices. Same reason you wouldn't see someone trying to sell 2nd edition material for full price, even if they went and made a bunch of new expansions and adventures for it. And as for the PRD, that's kinda expected since Open Game License pretty much requires them to slap the hard mechanics up somewhere for people to read for free. Wizards did it with D&D too, I probably still have the 3.x System Reference Document that I downloaded years ago sitting on a harddrive somewhere. It's pretty much something that applied to all of 3.0/3.5, some business strategy to try and get more third party publishers in on the game, more easily. Go read the OGL right quick, you'll see right where it says they have to make the mechanics available for free. I'm not saying it's not nice. I'm saying don't be quick to hand out credit, getting this stuff for free is something that Wizards' lawyers already decided for Paizo, when they wrote up OGL.

First, $10 is the PDF price for Pathfinder, not the in-print book price. A full color 576 page hard cover costs more than $10 just to print, and retails for $50.

Second, the OGL allows companies to declare anything they want as "Product Identity", so Paizo didn't have to release their rules as open content. Especially not their expansion content from their other books. But they do. Compare this with the new Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG which is also based on the OGL but only released part of two chapters as open content.

As to someone else's comment that the Wizard's beta isn't the full game: It isn't yet. But before the playtest is complete we will see a near complete game and it will still be for free. So what does Wizard's get out of it? A lot of good feedback (and advertising) about their new line, and an e-mail list directly to a ton of customers that are interested in the new version. That has a ton of value.

So anyway, yes, FFG has the right to conduct their beta as they wish. But when other industry leaders have been doing playtests with great success that are far more customer friendly, I have to conclude that this is a mistake. A pay to Beta will only reach a small number of hardcore fans. A free public beta would get many curious potential customers to check it out which may not have ever looked at a 40k rpg before.

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deinol said:

Second, the OGL allows companies to declare anything they want as "Product Identity", so Paizo didn't have to release their rules as open content. Especially not their expansion content from their other books. But they do. Compare this with the new Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG which is also based on the OGL but only released part of two chapters as open content.

As to someone else's comment that the Wizard's beta isn't the full game: It isn't yet. But before the playtest is complete we will see a near complete game and it will still be for free. So what does Wizard's get out of it? A lot of good feedback (and advertising) about their new line, and an e-mail list directly to a ton of customers that are interested in the new version. That has a ton of value.

So anyway, yes, FFG has the right to conduct their beta as they wish. But when other industry leaders have been doing playtests with great success that are far more customer friendly, I have to conclude that this is a mistake. A pay to Beta will only reach a small number of hardcore fans. A free public beta would get many curious potential customers to check it out which may not have ever looked at a 40k rpg before.

FFG doesn't own 40K, they license it from GW. I would suggest taking up the idea of giving away free content with GW.

The DnD Next public test is a mea culpa from wizards for 4E. They have lost so much ground to Pathfinder that they are scrambling to get a new system available so they can gain back customer support.

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Honestly, I don't mind the $20.  I own both hard copy and PDF versions of each corebook at the very least.  The opportunity to test and make suggestions prior to release is something people have been clamoring for since Dark Heresy was first launched.  And, if you go back through the forums you will see a significant number of threads complaining about poor proofreading of books prior to them going to print.

Fantasy Flight Games has always been good about addressing concerns of their market audience.  This probably seemed the best way to get some of the corrections taken care of.  Also, it gives them the right to say "you all had a chance to proof this before print, so any typos what remain are on your heads."

-=Brother Praetus=-

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Let me get in on this.

 

If you plan on buying the PDF and you do the beta, your total price after you get Only War in a few months is roughly $50 (finale price with rebate). If you plan on buying the hardback and take part in the beta your finale price is $70 (final price plus 20 for the beta).

It seems clear to me that this is wrong. If they were giving the rebate for either one then they may as well do the beta for free because the beta cost and the rebate cancel each other out anyway and they aren’t making any money.

Is it worth it? Only if you are getting the PDF finale version. Otherwise it is the biggest F-you to the hardback buyers out there.

They are saying, “Hey PDF buyers! Join this free beta!! Oh and hardback buyers, pay $20 for the same thing!! Isn’t that great?” No, it is not great.

I’m using a bit of hyperbole, and I WILL buy the core book because I played Only War on the FreeRPG day and it was awesome! But this practice is wrong. It is not entitlement; they CAN charge if they want to, the problem is making some people pay and other get a free ride, for no reason. They are really only backtracking and trying to cover up their mistake without just really fixing it by making it free for everyone.

Making some people pay and other get it for free is wrong.

 

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As has been said already, these are the full rules. Every one of 'em is in there. They're not going to give the full rules away for free. No one is getting it for free.

Secondly, you don't have to buy it, so if you just want the hardback (or were never going to buy the PDF), then not buying the beta PDF changes nothing for you.

BYE

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H.B.M.C. said:

As has been said already, these are the full rules. Every one of 'em is in there. They're not going to give the full rules away for free. No one is getting it for free.

Secondly, you don't have to buy it, so if you just want the hardback (or were never going to buy the PDF), then not buying the beta PDF changes nothing for you.

BYE

 

Agreed %100.

For those that won't be buying this book…..Buh Bye.

Looking forward to those that did buy it what they like/don't like so far.

After glancing at the book so far…..I gotta say I'm impressed!

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As a business model, its not that an uncommon practice in the computer game production sphere, heck, I'm doing one now for another game and forked out over $70 for. As for the P&P RPG, its a comparatively 'new' thing to try as the demographic is slightly different, however its not that different to be a completely reasonable approach.

You get an idea of how many will sell

You (and me) guys are always whinning on about how 'blah and blah' is wrong in final production

You get a say on what the game model will shape up to be and would like to play

You get the really obvious screw-ups fixed that you often miss when your nose is so buried in the coal face from writing 1000's of words

 

I've been here a while, all the time I see the ad-lib/ad-hoc inputs on games, their directions and things that just don't quite work, put in a few myself and to be honest, some of the things I've said here on forums as a feedback did end up in errata's, so someone's listening if the problem actually exists (Like Deathwatch tearing-bolters for example) and if you as a GM or player end up with a product that's fairly sound to run. Then you don't really have much to complain about as you have your chance to present it out now in a formal review.

On a personal level, I dunno if I want to run it as a game and I know I don't have the time to do a formal play test, so I won't be buying it just yet, but as a GM you can never have enough 'resources' for game ideas.

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Here it is in plain math. (If you read it all you cannot help but see my point is valid even if you disagree, the point is true.)

The beta is $20, if you buy the PDF when it is ready you get $20 off, you are getting the full rules right now for free. It's math, it is free for them, it is like a pre-order. Your money is going to "come back" in the form of the rebate.

If I spend $20 for the full rules now I will not get the $20 rebate because I will not be buying it in PDF later but hardback. I'm spending $20 on something another person is getting for free. You cannot say that if you get the PDF later you did not get the beta for free it is simple math. 2+2=4, 20+50-20=50 (PDF), 20+50=70 (Hardback). How is one person not getting it free while the other is paying for it?

They are giving the FULL RULES out FOR FREE to anyone who plans to buy a PDF. Nothing you or anyone says will change that. I'm not dogging the fact they are charging. I do not care if they make people pay, I know it's how a lot of PC games work, pay to play the beta, but you always get a rebate for the game and since it is a computer game you have to buy it on computer and get to use the rebate.

 

 

To be clear. The problem is not that they are charging 20 dollars. The problem is that they are charging some people 20 dollars and "giving" it to other people for free with a rebate. I plan to go to my game store the day it comes out and get it in hardback. This action wont change my plan. Nor will my little rant change what FFG had made up its mind to do.

They are back tracking, as has been pointed out the rebate was added, it was not there when they first posted this. Everyone should pay, or everyone should get it free. They could give a rebate for the hardback too if you order it from the two websites but they are not doing that. They made the choice to only give it to one group. That is the problem.

I know FFG cares about it's players and that is why they added the rebate later, but it was the wrong thing to do.

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My two cents:

Bought it - I love using PDF's at the game table as they can be quickly searched. Less books on the table equals more room for beers!

So far I really like it too. In fact I am liking the streamlined version without all the extra art and thing that perhaps FFG should consider offering versions like this for all their books in the future (at a discounted rate of course). The art is nice and it is often quite inspiring but speed is more important when you are at the table. 

What I really want to know is how to integrate this into my DH game. I have some players that are Guardsmen and I would like to recreate their characters in OW, add the benefits of comrades and see how all that works in DH. 

Anyways, thats my opinion. I'll be glad to use the $20 off when the complete book comes out. 

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