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Vonpenguin

Is 20$ worth it for just a beta?

97 posts in this topic

Blood Pact said:

Well, it certainly didn't take long for this thread to get stupid as all hell, now did it?

 

Vonpenguin said:

Essentially the topic. I mean when Green Ronin puts out their playtests they do so for free. I'm very interested in this game but not sure I want to pay for a bunch of fluffless crunch that I'll have to re-purchase in a few months anyway.

 

Temudschin said:

I´m not sure about this one too. 20$ for a beta-pdf? At least now we can have a closer look at the contents of Only War. You just have to look at the preview-pdf on drivethru, wich shows us the whole table of conent! :)

 

Alright, so everyone here who is hesitant…

Tell me, what were you planning to do after you bought the REAL, finished edition .pdf, and came to the conclusion you didn't like the game (after spending more than $20)? And if god-emperor forgbid that you actually like it, you get the $20 paid for the beta copy off the .pdf of the full copy… so again, what's there to complain about?

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure GR doesn't beta-test the core-books to entirely new games, for free.

Blood Pact said:

Well, it certainly didn't take long for this thread to get stupid as all hell, now did it?

 

Vonpenguin said:

Essentially the topic. I mean when Green Ronin puts out their playtests they do so for free. I'm very interested in this game but not sure I want to pay for a bunch of fluffless crunch that I'll have to re-purchase in a few months anyway.

 

Temudschin said:

I´m not sure about this one too. 20$ for a beta-pdf? At least now we can have a closer look at the contents of Only War. You just have to look at the preview-pdf on drivethru, wich shows us the whole table of conent! :)

 

Alright, so everyone here who is hesitant…

Tell me, what were you planning to do after you bought the REAL, finished edition .pdf, and came to the conclusion you didn't like the game (after spending more than $20)? And if god-emperor forgbid that you actually like it, you get the $20 paid for the beta copy off the .pdf of the full copy… so again, what's there to complain about?

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure GR doesn't beta-test the core-books to entirely new games, for free.

Everyone here knows the risk of buying these books. That risk is explicit and upfront and is present in every single purchase made inside and out of this hobby. Buy an album, book or dvd and there's a chance you might not like it. Trying to justify this policy on the basis of mitigating that response is depriving me of my responsibility as a consumer. I'm an adult, I can make an informed choice, and take the consequence of my decision. I certainly do not welcome anyone trying to use that as an excuse to gouge the fanbase for the 'privilege' of participating in a beta.

Then will you SHUT UP and leave the **** forums already? I'm sick of hearing nothing but bitching and moaning from you and too many other posters.

It's enough to make me quit the **** games.

You need to grow up and calm down.

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Blood Pact said:

Since when was this was "complaint thread"?

I foolishly assumed that I'd find rational discourse and and conversation when I decided to come here, instead every second post is right back to the same ol' mantra of bull that I see too much.

And why? Because someone knee-jerked way too fast cause they didn't see the thing about the $20 coming off the final product (yeah yeah, it wasn't there… or could it be that the first group complaining cause they didn't read thoroughly enough. Jumping right to outrage instead of reading all three paragraphs on the page? I'm sorry, but I always bet on human stupidity…

And then the further complaints, mostly from Signs, who has produced such gems as complainign about why Dark Eldar are only just getting rules now, as opposed to years ago (…yeah, that linear progression of time is a real *****, ain't it?). And couldn't just accept that they hadn't written them yet, back then.

So ya know what, I feel absolutely justified about my complaints… afterall, this is a complaint thread.

It sounds to me that you wanted an echo chamber. I'm afraid that isn't how this works. Sorry to disappoint.

Furthermore I do not personally care for the absuive tone of people that feel their opportunity to playtest this game threatened by people criticisng FFG's handling of the playest.

Again, this is not an echo chamber and bad decisions deserve the spotlight shone upone them. Noone has been rude to you so, with respect, stop being so thin skinned. If you want to pay for this product then do so, it's already there for you to hand over your cash. But pleasen don't be under any illusion how FFG have handled this.

It's also no guarantee that FFG will accept any feedback, make any changes or listen to what people say in presenting perhaps genuinely worthwhile feedback.

I think it's pretty reprehensible to not only pay for the final book (which is fine) but to pay for a beta so they can then use that money to finish the product. Not even kickstarter would get away with that.

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It seems like there is a lot of negativity going on when we have a chance to really shape this iteration of the rules.

 

20.00 does seem a bit much for a prototype, and while they may not take our advice or suggestions at the very least we get a chance to look at the new rules and see what is comming.  We also have a chance to try out the new rules and look for holes prior to the print version.  Has anyone looked at the Errata for Deathwatch?  The massive re-write on combat damage rules?  How about the Black Crusade character creation snafu where rules and weapons referanced were missing.  Sure, editing should have shaken that out, but this is a community of players and fans that is slowling dwindling over time.  What if this book helps to bring fresh blood to our hobby?  Isn't it worth our time, if we know we are going to get it anyways, to kick the tires and make some suggestions?  I am proud to say that I purchased the beta copy and I am excited to get a chance to try out the new rules.  I really like the 40K lines so far, I like how informative and interesting the setting is, and I want to see it succeed.  In this world of Kickstarter funding, crowd sourcing, and the general direction of the hobby I think this is a good move on FF's part.

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Inquisitor Huntingmoon said:

It seems like there is a lot of negativity going on when we have a chance to really shape this iteration of the rules.

 

20.00 does seem a bit much for a prototype, and while they may not take our advice or suggestions at the very least we get a chance to look at the new rules and see what is comming.  We also have a chance to try out the new rules and look for holes prior to the print version.  Has anyone looked at the Errata for Deathwatch?  The massive re-write on combat damage rules?  How about the Black Crusade character creation snafu where rules and weapons referanced were missing.  Sure, editing should have shaken that out, but this is a community of players and fans that is slowling dwindling over time.  What if this book helps to bring fresh blood to our hobby?  Isn't it worth our time, if we know we are going to get it anyways, to kick the tires and make some suggestions?  I am proud to say that I purchased the beta copy and I am excited to get a chance to try out the new rules.  I really like the 40K lines so far, I like how informative and interesting the setting is, and I want to see it succeed.  In this world of Kickstarter funding, crowd sourcing, and the general direction of the hobby I think this is a good move on FF's part.

What does paying 20 bucks do to prove you can properly playtest and proofread a game? Any fool can hand over money. Doesn't mean FFG are going to get the job done properly. This is supposed to be a job. Playtesting isn't meant to be an excuse to get a free copy of the game early. Nothing about this makes the slightest sense.

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Well most playtest material has little to know visual appeal (half a$$ charts and tables, no pictures, standard word documents) and are rarely (in my experience) 250+ pages. Plus it gives me a good head start on what the game will be like before paying $50 for it (since I am planning on multiple copies of the game if I like it, its a good start and worth thte $20).

It also seems to be more to my style than the last 2 40K RPGs, though I dont like the comrades rule so far.

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Blood Pact, you sure are mad.

I think the point that this hurts brick and mortar stores is perfectly valid. Yeah, FFG isn't dumb enough to not realize it won't be torrented. What this does do is have people pay 20$ and get $20 off the main book if they're the demographic who would have bought the online PDF anyway.

Personally, I just use PDFs since I only play online so it doesn't bother me that much.

 

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Peacekeeper_b said:

Well most playtest material has little to know visual appeal (half a$$ charts and tables, no pictures, standard word documents) and are rarely (in my experience) 250+ pages. Plus it gives me a good head start on what the game will be like before paying $50 for it (since I am planning on multiple copies of the game if I like it, its a good start and worth thte $20).

It also seems to be more to my style than the last 2 40K RPGs, though I dont like the comrades rule so far.

 

I guess you never saw the free Pathfinder Beta PDF.

And for someone else who said they haven't seen a lot of Free Pathfinder material, the free online PRD has all of the rules from all of the core books (without the art). They also price all their hardcover rulebook PDFs at $9.99. I would hope that FFG would learn a lesson from how Pathfinder grew to be the top selling RPG on the market. Even Wizards learned enough to put out free playtest documents.

If this gave a choice between $20 off the PDF or $20 off the hardcover, I'd consider it. But while I will probably by the book when it is released, I'm not going to buy the PDF. Also, since we've been playtesting the core rules for the 4+ years since Dark Heresy came out, a Beta now seems a bit late.

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Um, Mr. Blood Pact?

The file was posted over at DriveThruRPG WITHOUT the 3 paragraphs that you so smugly think nobody else read.  Those of us that reacted quickly to the announcement only saw the first paragraph.  The second and third paragraphs were added to the page later.  So you can get off of your high horse and stop insulting the other posters in this thread.  The only person appearing unintelligent in this discussion so far is YOU, sir.

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 I can't believe the complaints this is generating o_0. If I'm being honest, I think some of you need to take a step-back.

It's an *optional beta*. Emphasis on optional. As someone else pointed out, you can just wait until the final release if you feel paying for use of the beta is not justifiable. As someone else pointed out, this also seems like far more complete of a "beta" than most products that use that label release; you're essentially paying for a complete copy of an RPG core rulebook. 

Will the product be different later? Hopefully yes, because that's the point of the beta. But does that mean that while playtesting this beta, you aren't getting the full experience of playing an RPG, since as been pointed out this is essentially a full release minus some artwork and fluff? Yes, you are. Whether that's worth $20 is *completely up to you*. 

But to throw a fit because they're charging for a chance to play the game is absolutely ridiculous. Perhaps other companies do it differently, but they're different companies with different products. I would never play Pathfinder as a system, so how it does its betas is completely irrelevant. I love the 40k universe, I love how FFG has done its 40kRPGs, so I'm happy to get a chance to try out this new system, especially considering $20 for a full system is far cheaper than the usual $60 price tag core rulebooks come with. 

Sure, if you give feedback you're "working for free." If that bothers you, buy the product, don't give feedback. But I view it as a chance to improve and enhance a product that I'll hopefully be using for years to come, and I'm happy to do that while doing something I'd do in my spare time anyway (play RPGs). So if I can play something I love to play while simultaneously helping out the company that makes it, I'm happy to.

And if you're not, just don't buy it. It's that simple. Complaining angrily on the forum isn't going to accomplish anything. Please take a second to step back and reconsider your perspective.

 

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deinol said:

Even Wizards learned enough to put out free playtest documents.

A minor point here - the D&DNext playtest is a very different state of affairs. Those rules are in a very early state of development, and contain an extremely incomplete and unfinished version of the game that's not due for release for at least another year - it's more like an alpha test than a beta test. The Only War Beta is essentially a complete rulebook, lacking a few sections and pieces of artwork - the beta test is for fine-tuning and refinement, rather than full-blown development.

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I think you need to get off your high horse and wind your neck in. Noone has thrown a fit. In fact the only people behaving in such a manner are the insecure fanboys who have overreacted to the inevitable criticism.

This is not how you playtest a game. How are you going to feel when you buy the final product and it's still full of mistakes. FFGs previous games have ahuge list of playtesters as it is, just look at any of the corebooks, and mistakes were rife in the final products of each. Deathwatch has already been mentioned, look at the list of credits for playtesters.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

deinol said:

Even Wizards learned enough to put out free playtest documents.

 

A minor point here - the D&DNext playtest is a very different state of affairs. Those rules are in a very early state of development, and contain an extremely incomplete and unfinished version of the game that's not due for release for at least another year - it's more like an alpha test than a beta test. The Only War Beta is essentially a complete rulebook, lacking a few sections and pieces of artwork - the beta test is for fine-tuning and refinement, rather than full-blown development.

Are you saying that the writers are under the impression they won't have to change rules much (nevermind that people are doing the job of proofreading for you as well, which is a professional job you hire people to do)? Is that then playtesting with an open mind?

Now the rules as is might well be perfect, but then again…so what happens then?

Why didn't you offer a playtest earlier on? Free or otherwise?

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signoftheserpent said:

Are you saying that the writers are under the impression they won't have to change rules much (nevermind that people are doing the job of proofreading for you as well, which is a professional job you hire people to do)? Is that then playtesting with an open mind?

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm stating a difference, nothing more.

I cannot, and do not, speak on behalf of FFG or anyone other than myself. However, it should be noted that the Only War Beta is not a replacement for traditional playtesting and proofreading - those have already been done, as denoted by the fact that there are playtest and proofreading credits in the Beta document - which more than implies that the Beta itself is a final pass, an additional level of testing above and beyond the norm, little different to what many computer game publishers have done over the last few years (selling access to a final-stage open beta).

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

signoftheserpent said:

Are you saying that the writers are under the impression they won't have to change rules much (nevermind that people are doing the job of proofreading for you as well, which is a professional job you hire people to do)? Is that then playtesting with an open mind?

 

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm stating a difference, nothing more.

I cannot, and do not, speak on behalf of FFG or anyone other than myself. However, it should be noted that the Only War Beta is not a replacement for traditional playtesting and proofreading - those have already been done, as denoted by the fact that there are playtest and proofreading credits in the Beta document - which more than implies that the Beta itself is a final pass, an additional level of testing above and beyond the norm, little different to what many computer game publishers have done over the last few years (selling access to a final-stage open beta).

So what is the purpose of this? There are forums above this one dedicated to exactly that. The proofreading forum is chapter by chapter for people to post mistakes that whoever has proofread already. If you're paying someone to proofread (as you would with any book), which is presumably what is meant by traditional proofreading, then is the focus of this really just FFG offsetting their costs (costs otherwise covered by the RRP of the final product).

As a customer I'm happy to support work I enjoy by paying for it and saying things like 'this is a good book or game'. What I do not like is being fleeced or treated in a dishonest way. This feels to me, now, like FFG are double dipping. If you want to offer early access to the game, perhaps for the purposes of promotion by demoing it, then that's fine, but be honest about it, and have a proper recruitment process.

Charging fans more than a few bucks (this isn't a finished product, and $20 for even a finished digital file is pretty heinous) for a product that has, at best, a limited shelf life, and saying they are welcome to playtest it, but with no guarantee any errors spotted will be fixed (especially if the expectation is that we've done all the work, the only mistakes we anticipate are minor - the pages of errata that show up after every core book would suggest these epecations are erroneuous) is shady.

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signoftheserpent said:

Charing people to playtest your game is beyond inexcusable.


Not really.

Catalyst Game Labs put out a beta of the BattleTech RPG for a reduced price so people could use it and 'break the system', collated the feedback via their forums, and then put that into the final product. Anyone who had bought that PDF then got the full version for a heavily reduced price when it finally came out. It was a very successful test with a high take-up rate.

BYE

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H.B.M.C. said:

signoftheserpent said:

Charing people to playtest your game is beyond inexcusable.



Not really.

Catalyst Game Labs put out a beta of the BattleTech RPG for a reduced price so people could use it and 'break the system', collated the feedback via their forums, and then put that into the final product. Anyone who had bought that PDF then got the full version for a heavily reduced price when it finally came out. It was a very successful test with a high take-up rate.

BYE

 

People will playtest a game happily for free. I bet everyone on these forums would offer their services because it's its own reward. This feels like FFG taking advantage of that fact and I am very uncomfortable with this.

What other companies do is not really an argument, and again the only people tha tbenefit are the pdf buyers. Correction: the pdf buyers aren't out of pocket if they take this sort of scheme up. Bricks and mortars stores and their customers - the people buying the book (which is the final goal of this project and how it has been budgeted and organised) - are the ones that lose out, if they show their loyalty to FFG by taking this up.

And the people most likely to take this up are also most likely to buy the book.

Does it also follow that enthusiasm alone, plus a bit of spare cash, is enough of a qualification to playtest and proof read a game? A game that, it would appear, has already been playtested and proofread anyway.

There isn't a positive outcome for this at all.

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PDF products have been around for a while now. Jumping on the 'B&M stores will suffer' bandwagon now stinks of fish. A red fish perhaps. A kind or herring, even.

Fact of the matter serpent is that you don't have to be involved in this. You can quite happily walk away and not think anything more of Only War until the physical copy hits shelves (whenever that turns out to be… probably after Gen-Con now… that's a shame sad.gif). Those who want to get involved will, and those who won't, won't! It's not that difficult. I don't like the $20 price tag and was taken aback when I saw it (as I didn't see any price break on the PDF when I first went to the link). As someone else mentioned in this thread, $10 probably would've been better, but the past is the past. It's done now. Going over it constantly doesn't help anything and I think our time is better served trying to even out the wrinkles in the game.

I'm sure, serpent, that the first thing you type in reply to me will be "You're missing the point!" or words to that effect, but I don't care. You've proven time and time again to be the single most self-entitled person at this board with a raging angry demeanour and you have not been able to demonstrate the ability of finding the good in anything. Everything I've seen you post is either a personal attack against the FFG, the writers, the freelancers, the play-testers or even just other members. You add nothing to this discussion and will continue to add nothing to this discussion for as long as you continue to post about the beta without actually taking part in the beta.

So the choice is yours - and once I'm done I will say nothing further on the matter - participate in the better and work with others towards a better game (a game you just would've complained about had it come out without a beta, and a game you probably still will complain about now anyway), or don't participate and leave this sub-forum, because your continued presence adds nothing, contributes nothing, and results in nothing. You said on the first page that they'd 'lost a customer'. If this is true, why are you still here?

And I'm done. No further conversation will be entered into unless it is constructive beta-related discussion, not self-entitled "I want it all and I want it all right away!" nonsense. I'd urge Nathan to do the same thing.

BYE

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Wow, I am amazed at the vitriol in this thread.

I too was flabbergasted initially when they had not included the paragraph about the discount on the final product.

Now that we know that you'll actually get your money back I think it's a huge step forward for FFG. After every major 40K rpg release it has been sad to read about the many glaring and obvious errors that the community found after just a quick skimming of the rules. Now here's the chance to change that. There has also been many voices calling out how non-communicative that FFG is and this beta is rectifying that as well.

I can understand the frustration of the people who do not want a pdf and feel left out but the general feeling of entitlement is a little….overwhelming.

I am confident that in the end the quality of the finished product, wether that is a hard- or digital copy, will be greatly increased.

I really do not see the error here (except for the fact that it was sloppy to leave out the "discount" paragraph in the beginning).

 

Edit: oh and to actually answer the question: Yes, it is absolutely worth it. I did the very same thing with a swedish game just now published (Svavelvinter). It was cool. The only reason I am not sure I'll get into the beta is because I am starting up a campaign with that game and probably won't have time to do any actual testing.

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bladerunner_35 said:

I can understand the frustration of the people who do not want a pdf and feel left out but the general feeling of entitlement is a little….overwhelming.

It isn't a question of simple choice. For many of us PDF's aren't practical. I'd love to own a laptop or a tablet, it would make carrying all the material to the gaming table a hell of a lot easier than lugging a ton weight of books and risking a hernia!

But more than that, the product itself is intended and designed and costed and budgeted as a print book. The pdf is a happy by product, something that can be created because of the process. It isn't the goal, it's just another revenue stream. And that's fine. I have no problem with the existence of pdf materials and I fully endorse people using them. But that isn't what this project was about. So the people that are going to buy the book, including those of us who can only consume the product in this form, lose out on this deal - yet we're the ones paying the most for the project and we're the ones supporting the core retail chain. Was that not considered as part of this?

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signoftheserpent said:

bladerunner_35 said:

 

I can understand the frustration of the people who do not want a pdf and feel left out but the general feeling of entitlement is a little….overwhelming.

 

It isn't a question of simple choice. For many of us PDF's aren't practical. I'd love to own a laptop or a tablet, it would make carrying all the material to the gaming table a hell of a lot easier than lugging a ton weight of books and risking a hernia!

But more than that, the product itself is intended and designed and costed and budgeted as a print book. The pdf is a happy by product, something that can be created because of the process. It isn't the goal, it's just another revenue stream. And that's fine. I have no problem with the existence of pdf materials and I fully endorse people using them. But that isn't what this project was about. So the people that are going to buy the book, including those of us who can only consume the product in this form, lose out on this deal - yet we're the ones paying the most for the project and we're the ones supporting the core retail chain. Was that not considered as part of this?

 

I am sorry but I do not understand what you mean (and I mean this in all honesty)?

What "project" do you mean? This beta test is clearly meant to find rules error and confusions.

While those that do not want to buy the beta pdf indeed cannot participate in the beta test you do not lose out. At least that is what I feel, you will get a better product in the end. I do not think it is strange that FFG do not provide a physical beta version. It would clearly not be cost effective and we would get the exact same argument that we have now.

If you do not choose to participate in the beta ie buy the beta pdf you are not "paying the most for the project". What is it that you feel you are paying? Is it the lost opportunity that frustrate you?

You will still support the core retail chains if you buy the physical book from the core retail chain.

The game is not delayed. FFG never said they would release it on GenCon.

Personally I feel everyone benefits from this (although I feel I have to admit I am a pdf kind of guy).

I hope you do not take this as me being obtuse on purpouse. I just do not see your points.

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People assumed (myself included) that it would come out around or after Gen-Con, just like the other books. Of course, that was an assumption, not a fact.

BYE

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bladerunner_35 said:

signoftheserpent said:

 

bladerunner_35 said:

 

I can understand the frustration of the people who do not want a pdf and feel left out but the general feeling of entitlement is a little….overwhelming.

 

It isn't a question of simple choice. For many of us PDF's aren't practical. I'd love to own a laptop or a tablet, it would make carrying all the material to the gaming table a hell of a lot easier than lugging a ton weight of books and risking a hernia!

But more than that, the product itself is intended and designed and costed and budgeted as a print book. The pdf is a happy by product, something that can be created because of the process. It isn't the goal, it's just another revenue stream. And that's fine. I have no problem with the existence of pdf materials and I fully endorse people using them. But that isn't what this project was about. So the people that are going to buy the book, including those of us who can only consume the product in this form, lose out on this deal - yet we're the ones paying the most for the project and we're the ones supporting the core retail chain. Was that not considered as part of this?

 

 

 

I am sorry but I do not understand what you mean (and I mean this in all honesty)?

What "project" do you mean? This beta test is clearly meant to find rules error and confusions.

While those that do not want to buy the beta pdf indeed cannot participate in the beta test you do not lose out. At least that is what I feel, you will get a better product in the end. I do not think it is strange that FFG do not provide a physical beta version. It would clearly not be cost effective and we would get the exact same argument that we have now.

If you do not choose to participate in the beta ie buy the beta pdf you are not "paying the most for the project". What is it that you feel you are paying? Is it the lost opportunity that frustrate you?

You will still support the core retail chains if you buy the physical book from the core retail chain.

The game is not delayed. FFG never said they would release it on GenCon.

Personally I feel everyone benefits from this (although I feel I have to admit I am a pdf kind of guy).

I hope you do not take this as me being obtuse on purpouse. I just do not see your points.

What i mean by project is Only War - the game! The project to write the rpg.

What I am saying is that if I choose to pay for the beta, unless I buy the pdf through the related discoiunt, I lose out because I'm also paying for the book - and the cost of the book includes the cost of playtesting (just as it does with the costs of printing, publishing and writing, etc)

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I was sketchy about paying for a beta until, unsurprisingly, my fears were alleviated by being informed of a discount on the final product.

I can help the project, which is cool and get an early look at it, which is also cool :)

I also lose nothing in doing so (as far as I can tell), so I'm quite pleased now having got the Beta and spotted a few mistakes :P

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signoftheserpent said:

What I am saying is that if I choose to pay for the beta, unless I buy the pdf through the related discoiunt, I lose out because I'm also paying for the book - and the cost of the book includes the cost of playtesting (just as it does with the costs of printing, publishing and writing, etc)

 

I see, and indeed you do. You either lose out on the beta or pay for the privilige. I understand now, I do not necessarily agree that it's a big deal but again I do not mind using pdf:s so I am biased.

Thanks for the clarification btw!

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