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Zombiejoe

FFG Dice versus normal dice?

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Hi all,

Now this may be a silly post I'm not sure. I'm also not sure of the statistics on this, so if anyone does please correct me :D

Here's where I'm confused. FFG dice, for dust, have a hit mark on the 6 and 1 side of a normal die. Ok, this is fine. I assumed that if you were using normal dice that you would use the 1 and 6 side as well. But, in the rule book, it actually says use the 5 and 6. Conventional wisdom would say that in either case, you're chances are 1/3 in either case. And yes techincally this is correct. But, when you introduce some geometry to the equation, I dont think its. Here me out…(warning I might just be mad)

There are two planes (I'm using plane loosely cause I'm not sure what the word should be) to a die. That is, if you hold up a die, say a Dust die, it will have one hit mark on the top and one on the bottom, and a blank side inbetween. This is the vertical plane. Then on the horizontal plane, you have four blanks. If you are confused, pick up a die and look at it with the 6 on top and 1 on bottom. When you roll the die, its a 50% chance you get the horizontal (again this is abstract) or the verticle side. With a dust die, two of the hits are on the same plane, so you have a 50% chance of even landing on the plane that has any hits, in which case you have a 50% chance again of getting 1 of the 2 hits on that side. Where as the other side has no hits at all.

Now consider a normal D6 using the 5 and 6 as your hit marks. Here, when holding the 6 up and the 1 down, you have a 50% of getting either plane, and then on each plane you have a 1/4 chance of getting the hit per that plane.

The reason I bring this up, is that it seems that the rules give you two options for dice that have different statiscal properties. Can anyone confirm my thesis or am I just completely bonkers here? Thanks for reading eitherway, if you have quesions or need a better explanation let me know.

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You are completely bonkers. ;)

The shaking of dice in the hand or dice cup should completely erase the probability errors you site.  There should be absolutely no difference in the odds.  The Dust dice have hits on two sides, the regular dice hit on two sides as well.  If someone is rolling one die at a time in order to manipulate the odds, I think you should beat them with the boxed set.

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 Yeah, folks who attempt to manipulate the dice to a 50/50 or 100% chance should be beat, but don't use a box set, use a Scwer Panzer Glove or a Heavy Rocket Punch Fist!

Or, you know, Napalm in their shorts!  gran_risa.gif

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lol, nice.

I appreciate the replies, but the more I think about this the more I think there is merit. later I'll pull together a more concise argument. But for now, thanks for pondering what i'm pondering.

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 I actually pondered the same thing back when the Dust boardgame & DT first came out.  I came to the conclusion you'd have to ensure the horizontal/vertical plane was manipulated to be one or the other to change the 33.333…% odds. If the dice are being shaken together prior to rolling, plus the very fact landing on corners changes the the plane, usually more than once as they tumble on the table, then the odds should be consistent either way. 

But my science expertise only extends to quantum physics (my minor back in the day), therefore I'll defer this one to folks with more Newtonian Physics experience. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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I dont think it has much to do with geometry, more with statistics. The odds of any one number is the same no matter what side if the die it is on. I beleive the only time it begins to matter is when the dice start waearing out. Anyone from back in the day with low impact dice know that well. Most of todays dice dont have that kind of problem. In the course of a game it all averages out.

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Mack Martin actually mentioned in an interview (I think it was the D6G one) that during a playtest session he asked one group to use 1 and 6 as hits, and another group 5 and 6. The 1&6 group were a lot more frustrated with their rolls than the 5&6 group were, so based on that they decided to go with hits on 5 and 6 in the rules.

 

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Cannor said:

Mack Martin actually mentioned in an interview (I think it was the D6G one) that during a playtest session he asked one group to use 1 and 6 as hits, and another group 5 and 6. The 1&6 group were a lot more frustrated with their rolls than the 5&6 group were, so based on that they decided to go with hits on 5 and 6 in the rules.

 

 

That is not correct.  He stated the group did not have favorable impression of the game because remembering a die roll of 1 and 6 hit is more difficult to conceptualize than 5 and 6.  There is no mention that they rolled worse, simply they struggled with the rules and had a dis-favorable opinion of the game.

@ZombieJoe, your theory does not stand up to statistical fact that each face of a die has a 1/6 chance of landing.  Further more the combination of 2 dice puts it out to 1/36, etc. The actual physical side does not matter given the die are correctly made.

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 If your rolling the dice in a way that manipulates the odds, your CHEATING :P. plus the book tells you to roll dice together at the same time so if your rolling them one at a time you could be called out for breaking the rules, even if it dosnt change the statistical outcome. 

 

Dont be a knob, roll your dice like a big boy. 

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thejughead said:

Cannor said:

 

Mack Martin actually mentioned in an interview (I think it was the D6G one) that during a playtest session he asked one group to use 1 and 6 as hits, and another group 5 and 6. The 1&6 group were a lot more frustrated with their rolls than the 5&6 group were, so based on that they decided to go with hits on 5 and 6 in the rules.

 

 

 

 

That is not correct.  He stated the group did not have favorable impression of the game because remembering a die roll of 1 and 6 hit is more difficult to conceptualize than 5 and 6.  There is no mention that they rolled worse, simply they struggled with the rules and had a dis-favorable opinion of the game.

You're right. I knew they had a issue of some sort with 1 and 6, but I was going from memory. :)

 

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