Jaqen H'gar burned

[Twn2dn 1]

ktom said:

Bomb said:

Basically, what are the exceptions and allowances for saving if the save effect itself does not specifically remove the terminal state but has outside effects that might reinforce it?

It all comes down to this: you can only initiate one effect to both save and remove the card from the terminal state.

 

If you need to go through two initiations to do this - triggered and/or passive - you are not allowed to use either one. So Jaqen cannot discard the dupe because it requires 2 initiations (the triggered save and the passive return to Shadows) to save and remove him from the terminal state. In the "Clans-Aemon" (or simply the Timett/Tyrion/Valar example), you only need to initiate one thing (the save), even though it is the combination with an (always on, non-initiated) constant ability that completes the removal from the terminal state.

Ugh, OK this makes sense…. Again, pretty counter intuitive on FFG's part, and poor templating/scripting if the initial idea was that Jaqen would be protected from pretty much any removal source. If FFG intended Jaqen to work the way he actually does, then he's just a crappy character all around (gold cost too high, doesn't gain the abilities of cards that reference their own name, since he doesn't actually gain that name, etc). 

[KristoffStark 1]

Twn2dn said:

Ugh, OK this makes sense…. Again, pretty counter intuitive on FFG's part, and poor templating/scripting if the initial idea was that Jaqen would be protected from pretty much any removal source. If FFG intended Jaqen to work the way he actually does, then he's just a crappy character all around (gold cost too high, doesn't gain the abilities of cards that reference their own name, since he doesn't actually gain that name, etc). 

 

Um, but isn't Jaquen still protected for any removal source except burn?  Doesn't that qualify as "pretty much any"?

[ktom 598]

Twn2dn said:

If FFG intended Jaqen to work the way he actually does, then he's just a crappy character all around (gold cost too high, doesn't gain the abilities of cards that reference their own name, since he doesn't actually gain that name, etc).

My money would be on the thought that Jaqen's design intent didn't go much further than "wouldn't it be cool if we could make a Jaqen that could pretend to be other characters?" I think Jaqen is another victim of "cool concept, very hard to pull off," kinda like Walder Frey. 

[Bomb 66]

Alright fair enough.  Thanks!

I just wanted to get to the bottom of what is considered to be possible in removing the terminal effect.

[Ikaros 0]

KristoffStark said:

Twn2dn said:

Ugh, OK this makes sense…. Again, pretty counter intuitive on FFG's part, and poor templating/scripting if the initial idea was that Jaqen would be protected from pretty much any removal source. If FFG intended Jaqen to work the way he actually does, then he's just a crappy character all around (gold cost too high, doesn't gain the abilities of cards that reference their own name, since he doesn't actually gain that name, etc). 

 

 

 

 

Um, but isn't Jaquen still protected for any removal source except burn?  Doesn't that qualify as "pretty much any"?

Uh, I think he is not protected from "cannot be saved" effects too. And they are so many.

[Bomb 66]

Ikaros said:

 

Uh, I think he is not protected from "cannot be saved" effects too. And they are so many.

That goes without saying.

[ktom 598]

Bomb said:

Ikaros said:

Uh, I think he is not protected from "cannot be saved" effects too. And they are so many.

 

 

That goes without saying.

He's a duped unique. He's actually worse than a duped unique because you have to pay the 2 gold to bring him back out of Shadows after using the save. Point is, his ability lets him com back from the same things that duped unique cards are protected from. Saying that it is an "unintuitive design" that, as a duped unique character, he can only come back from the same things that a duped unique character could be saved from (and is as vulnerable to burn and "cannot be saved" as any other duped unique is) doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.