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LuciusMacharius

Finding the lost Primarch's Chapter

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How do Black Templars know of these Grey Knights, supposedly they're the only chapter with psykers the Templars will fight along side. Also if they were routinely mind wiped about the existence of chaos and demons how come they are still have chapter modes that target demons. what's going on?

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How do Black Templars know of these Grey Knights, supposedly they're the only chapter with psykers the Templars will fight along side. Also if they were routinely mind wiped about the existence of chaos and demons how come they are still have chapter modes that target demons. what's going on?

 

This, so much this, an dif they are mind wiped how do they know that the GK are the only Psykers they will fight alongside.

 

The mind wipe fluff, ESPECIALLY in the case of Space Marines is just dumb. IG, civilians, ok, sure I guess, but lets be realistic, is the Inquisition ready to potentially go to war with an entire Space Marine chapter whenever they deploy a GK strike team in the same theatre and then demand to mindwipe the Astartes present? Cause there is a very real chance of that happening.

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The mind wiping isn't really to maintain the secrecy of the Grey Knights per say more because of the kinds of actions the Grey Knights are involved in.  That is to say Grey Knights consult a marine chapter on the location of some relic or other no mindwiping would take place.  Grey Knights fight alongside same chapter against a horde of deamons mindwiping is on the menu.

 

Mind wiping is necessary for the sanity of the marines, not to maintain secrecy just because.  The old 'They Shall Know No Fear' is true up to a point.  A marine will never be a coward (at least not in the conventional sense) but he is still a human not a robot.  Seeing the sheer wrongness of the daemon can still break his mind or open him up to corruption.  They only mind wipe Astartes because they are so valuable.  Normally IG and other Imperial troops will be killed.  In the case of nobility and governors they will merely be sterilised and confined to a concentration camp (see the aftermath of the 1st War for Armageddon).

 

Additionally it often isn't even the Inquisition necessarily demanding the mind scrubbing.  The Chapter itself is well aware of the dangers of warp incursions and will happily mind wipe their own marines with no interference from the Inquisition (see 'Space Marine' by Ian Watson).  In this example it explains how the Imperial Fists involved remembered much of the fighting and knew they had saved the Company but not really what they were fighting.  Crucially the marines themselves knew also why they had been mindscrubbed, what they had been fighting was too terrible to comprehend.  If I remember correctly (and it has been a while since I read the novel) but they may even have been told by their chaplain that it was deamons but not to ask any more questions.

 

Incidentally and to bring the thread back on topic I think there are two explanations why the Lost Primarchs were expunged but the Traitor Legions weren't 

 

1) The Traitor Legions are still around.  Knowledge fo them is (officially at least) confined to the upper echolons of the Imperial military.  From a practical point of view you wouldn't want your army to be surprised when what they thought were your elite warrior knights turn out to be traitors..  However if say it could be confirmed that every last World Eater had been killed then the Imperium would expunge the records of the World Eaters. 

 

2) What the Lost Primarchs did was worse than simply turning traitor.  For example say they landed on an alien world and became the leader of a xenos/human civilisation.  And worse still the civilisation worked. 

 

What if the Lost Primarch rejected the Imperial Truth, and worse yet provided an extended treatise similar to the Codex Astartes as to why the Emperor's vision for humanioy was wrong?

 

I prefer the second explanation.  I think the Lost Primarchs were expunged not for what they did but for what they thought.

Edited by Visitor Q

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I've been constructing a story for a campaign which is tied into one of the Lost Legions.
As above I was thinking along the lines of each of the legions / Primarchs had a specific purpose in service to the Emperor. I figured that he would probably have entrusted the care of gene-seed to one of his sons, more than likely the second one since he had Horus as his warmaster to take his message forth, the second son would be a child of purity control, basically a legion of Geneticists and caretakers of the gene-seed before their fall caused it to be handed over to the techpriests of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

From there I figured I needed to determine a flaw, one that would eventually cause the Emperor to completely erase records of them and would also fit in the general theme of the other legions. I ended up looking at the Iron hands, but instead of the bionics they had the idea that they could bridge the gap between Primarch and Space Marine.
 

They start off with some success, and the Primarch gets hooked. The Legion starts collecting DNA samples from various creatures and xenos looking for possible paths to improve marines. They then start altering the gene-seed of their own legion, they found a way to stimulate a second transformation by injecting a cocktail of genetic specimens into the progenoid glands and into the various other enhanced organs, one enhancement granted the marine chameleon-like abilities to shift the colour of their skin and so on. The Primarch was the worst, he had more genetic alterations performed then any other of the legion
This would have continued except for an “accident”, a full round of Aspirants failed spectacularly. The Ossmodula and Bisopea implants reacted in an unexpected way, skeletal growths pieced the skin and their muscle mass required such a high metabolic turnover that it was infeasible to put them in the field. Unfortunately for the legion one of the aspirants was an unidentified latent psyker and his anguish caught the attention of the Emperor.
When he arrived and found what his son had been doing to his creation he named is a corruption of his his work, children meddling in things beyond their knowledge. By JacobTheAussie

 

Love the idea. This may sound far fetched but... maybe Fabius Bile used to be part of the Legion and when it was destroyed\eliminated\cleared he secretly escaped. The primarch before being cast into the warp told Fabius, "The Emperor may not see the need, but we must improve. We have failed and it is up to you to redeem us. Beware the ones in the warp, for they may help you or destroy you. Go now, before they find you. Bring honour back to us." Fabius returned to the Imperium in the guise of a new marine but hidden behind all these lies was a mind that would change the Spacemarines. He got picked(don't know how yet)by the Emperors Children and there he stayed until the Horus Heresy. Also maybe he was into Chaos way before Lorgar or Erebus knew. Hmm, if you like it I might make it into a campaign for my players. I am sorry if I went of topic and pleeeeaaaasssseeee reply.

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How do Black Templars know of these Grey Knights, supposedly they're the only chapter with psykers the Templars will fight along side. Also if they were routinely mind wiped about the existence of chaos and demons how come they are still have chapter modes that target demons. what's going on?

 

Based on the Emperor's Gift, Chapter Masters (specifically) know of the Grey Knights' existance, as will anyone involved in the "you're now chapter master, here are all the secrets you need to know" handover proceedures (probably the Chief Librarian or equivalent). Normal battle brothers don't, and are mind-cleansed if they encounter them.

 

 

 

Mind Cleansing your troops is stupid, you can't have a functional veteran corps if you keep resetting them. That idea has always been dumb as hell.

 

[...]

Mind-cleansing is essentially controlled retrograde amnesia. You lose locational and episodic memory, but not semantic memory and so on.

In a nutshell, you maintain your skillset and acquired talents, but you have no idea when or how you learned it.

Grey Knights mind-cleansing their Chapter Serfs on active duty makes complete sense to me, and I'm surprised not more do it.

 

 

They mind cleanse their own as part of a training programme - no Grey Knight knows where he was born or who he was prior to his induction into the chapter.

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I don't really agree with the idea of Grey Knights. I reckon everything should be suspectible to Chaos and corruption. The Grey Knights are overpowered and cannot be corrupted, which in my opinion is boring and dull. The Grey Knights are almost invincible when it comes to fighting daemons. Yes they can die but wheres the fun in that. Mindwiping makes sense but doesn't it make Marines curious unless they are more like drones. Tell that to a Space Wolf.

 

With the killing the rest that don't get mindwiped is stupid. The scale of battles can number millions of soldiers and that's not including many other personnel. The Inquisition are crazy if they think that they can kill that number of men and women. And thats not including the civilians. You need armies to kill that many people. More Imperial Guard. This ends in a circle of people being silenced say to their killers what happened and then the killers are getting silenced. Weak. The Exterminatus treatment makes sence but what happens when the don't do that? Like after the first war of Armageddon. If you are thinking that Space Marines do the dirty job then you are mistaken. Grey Knights don't do it because they are too high up ithe enemy ladder. Other Space Marines are the same and some don't like it at all.

 

The writers of Grey Knights should to start limiting the extremist ways of the Inquisition and the Grey Knights. Please reply.

Edited by Misha

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I like this thread.

If a GM wanted to play around with a lost Primarch, and wanted to court canon even though it really wasn't, I'd recommend the Forge World chapter, Red Scorpions.  http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Red_Scorpions

I really like Forge World's fluff for them, there models look cool, and because it's Forge World it feels a bit more canon to me.

 

The Red Scorpions aren't forgeworld's chatper, they've been around since the original fluff on the Badab Wars since the 1980's in Rogue Trader. They are noted as being from a much later founding, they just don't know which chapter is their progenator.

So... no

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