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Necronis

Joining sniper/observer teams

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     I'm sorry if this has been addressed before, but I can't seem to find a rule concerning heroes joining on of these teams.

I see where a single hero is treated as a team or unit. But not where a team (sniper/observer) is allowed or not to have a hero attached.

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     That part I knew about, but I was leery of allowing a certain lady to benefit from a spotter without a little input.

In view of the rest of my forces…….. challenges, this seemed an unlikely benefit- so I didn't believe it could be done. Now I get to hear about how "broken" my army is. About time. Thanks for the reply man. 

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Necronis said:

     That part I knew about, but I was leery of allowing a certain lady to benefit from a spotter without a little input.

In view of the rest of my forces…….. challenges, this seemed an unlikely benefit- so I didn't believe it could be done. Now I get to hear about how "broken" my army is. About time. Thanks for the reply man. 

Every time your opponent claims Angela is broken, tell them your next thing is to mod a dozer blade on your Konigsluther. gran_risa.gif Shuts my guys up every time. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Azrell said:

 Shoot here back she only has 3 wounds and would be in a unit of 3 models…

Agreed. But easier said than done. She'll have at least soft cover, and early game only counter snipers and expensive Walkers will have range, and opposing sniper will usually die first. I'll trade my 42 points for 100 point walker being tied up for 2+ turns and whatever her and her team kills those 2 turns. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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2 words:  Long Toms

Ignore cover, have unlimited range.  Angela plus a sniper team won't be able to stand up to them forever.

There are other ways to take out Angela too… I found the chef quite useful for this.

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 She works better in a regular infantry unit. I tend to prefer the battle grenadiers for the 2 panzershreks of ignore cover/armor of doom. Its like bug repellent for walkers and heavy infantry.

Now the allies can do it too with Rosie and a sniper team as well. We don't have the same hidious artillery that the allies do so it can be more difficult to deal with that combo in the infantry swarm allies army. With the assault platoon I believe they can out down up to 4 sniper squads, Rosie and a bunch fast moving BBQ boy and tank hunters.

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I still put her in the teams, and let them take fire while my walkers shoot/move up. If you put her i the team make sure you use and order to fire every command phase because she has a 66% chance of hitting and you better off shooting once in command and once in unit phase than getting rerolls in the command phase. Also the dug in upgrade for the platoon lets you deploy the team in hard cover anywhere in your deployment zone!! Dont forget to check out her shoots vs light vehicles too!!

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Sniper/Spotter

Hoping this isn't too out of the thread…

Regarding to the "teams" overall capacity (we haven't yet fielded sniper teams), do you take the combined "xxxxxxx only" SA's until one of the team is downed? Thus collapsing the power of the SA combo to whatever soldier is left. Or, do you play ONLY the SA of that particular team member for their shot / target?

 

Best

Luddite

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The way I play is that both members of the Sniper Team benefit from the Sniper rule (no cover or armor saves) and both members benefit from the Spotter rule (hit on blanks), until one member dies (the spotter is the first one I remove). After the spotter is dead, I play it that the Spotter rule goes away. I too, would like to know if I am correct in that…

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 Yep, they get less effective once the spotter goes down, fortunately you take the first 2 wounds from Angela first. There are a lot of ways to help against Angela and her team but none of them are easy or without risk. You can say get the BBQ squad close, but Angela's team gets even more deadly within 16" as the spotter pitches in and now their potential to kill goes up to 8 enemies dead a turn… and the chances of it happening are actually quite good.

But, in the end, it is only 5 wounds with an armour save of 2… of course, they will likely be dug in with hard cover which makes them a little harder to kill. But then again Allies have airdrop and fast moving jump troops, etc., so she can be dealt with, just not without losing some blood. Any way you slice it, she is going to hurt you… but allies have some things up their sleeve that require an equal amount of determination to take out.

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Azrell said:

Dont forget to check out her shoots vs light vehicles too!!

She is actually pretty nasty against anything short of a fireball or punisher. She can wipe out a pounder in a single shot. Over the course of an entire turn using two separate shoot actions, she can pop two different walkers. Is it guaranteed, of course not, are the odds in your favour, yes they are.

From personal experience, I have killed a pounder and a blackhawk with her in one single turn. I scored two hits on a pounder in the command phase, rerolling both of them because of frenzy. That's 4 damage with no armour or cover= bye bye Pounder. Then in the unit phase, pulled two hits with an extra on the re-roll against a blackhawk = bye bye blackhawk… oh by the way, it was first turn and he was pissed!

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 Yeah, I don't recommend using Angela vs a new player, or allowing prospective players to use her. I may have lost a potential player from the latter. He was very annoyed when he outplayed his opponent, another prospective player, the whole game, but still lost because Angela & a sniper team killed his entire force over the course of the battle. Lesson learned: Save her for folks who've already made up their mind about the game. I'd put Rosie, Lara, and Action Jackson in this category as well. 

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Azrell said:

I still put her in the teams, and let them take fire while my walkers shoot/move up. If you put her i the team make sure you use and order to fire every command phase because she has a 66% chance of hitting and you better off shooting once in command and once in unit phase than getting rerolls in the command phase. Also the dug in upgrade for the platoon lets you deploy the team in hard cover anywhere in your deployment zone!! Dont forget to check out her shoots vs light vehicles too!!

Azrell said:

Also the dug in upgrade for the platoon lets you deploy the team in hard cover anywhere in your deployment zone!! Dont forget to check out her shoots vs light vehicles too!!

 

I mean if you put her with snipers light cover = hardcover, but yes this is what Long Toms are for and they will wreck Angela's day. Artillery fire in general will mess her up. I think in a Sniper squad is the best way to use her, obviously others may disagree, but I think have the inverted die rolls versus just getting the sniper ability on 2 panzershreks is better over all. Also she already messes up walkers all the way up to Vehicle 4.

I mean she isn't broken by any means. In low point games she becomes more powerful, but if you play at 300AP which is the suggested tournament level area and I can tell you is where the majority of the playtesting gets done at then you will see she is a balanced character. Same as Markus.

Things to remember when she is with snipers is they can split fire so she can attack a walker and the sniper in the squad can suppress another squad.

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Shadow4ce said:

 

 Yeah, I don't recommend using Angela vs a new player, or allowing prospective players to use her. I may have lost a potential player from the latter. He was very annoyed when he outplayed his opponent, another prospective player, the whole game, but still lost because Angela & a sniper team killed his entire force over the course of the battle. Lesson learned: Save her for folks who've already made up their mind about the game. I'd put Rosie, Lara, and Action Jackson in this category as well. 

 

 

I agree with not using heroes with new players, but, if he outplayed his opponent all game he wouldn't have lost to Angela and snipers the whole game. Part of outplaying your opponent is not letting that happen and not losing. You can't really outplay your opponent if you lose, winning is how you outplay your opponent, not by rolling good or killing troops. If you have 1 guy left and win the game, you still won the game and did what you had to do. Soldiers die in war, the goal is not to keep all your soldiers alive… that's a Sargeant's job. The job of high command is to win the war.

Of course, this statement is rather simplistic and I do get your point on keeping these characters away from beginners. I have always said that when showing the game to newbies that you shouldn't put in any heroes at all. They take a veteran player to know how to use and certainly need a veteran player to know how to counter. That's why the core set is such a great buy for people. It lets you start up and play both allies and axis which gives you insights into both. Then when you are playing one against the other there is little your opponent can do to surprise you.

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I have also found the game a lot more fun if there is a lot of terrain that blocks LOS.  This will also help people protect important units from pesky attacks like Angela or Long Toms - can't shoot at what you can't see.

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Strombole said:

 

Shadow4ce said:

 

 Yeah, I don't recommend using Angela vs a new player, or allowing prospective players to use her. I may have lost a potential player from the latter. He was very annoyed when he outplayed his opponent, another prospective player, the whole game, but still lost because Angela & a sniper team killed his entire force over the course of the battle. Lesson learned: Save her for folks who've already made up their mind about the game. I'd put Rosie, Lara, and Action Jackson in this category as well. 

 

 

I agree with not using heroes with new players, but, if he outplayed his opponent all game he wouldn't have lost to Angela and snipers the whole game. Part of outplaying your opponent is not letting that happen and not losing. You can't really outplay your opponent if you lose, winning is how you outplay your opponent, not by rolling good or killing troops. If you have 1 guy left and win the game, you still won the game and did what you had to do. Soldiers die in war, the goal is not to keep all your soldiers alive… that's a Sargeant's job. The job of high command is to win the war.

Of course, this statement is rather simplistic and I do get your point on keeping these characters away from beginners. I have always said that when showing the game to newbies that you shouldn't put in any heroes at all. They take a veteran player to know how to use and certainly need a veteran player to know how to counter. That's why the core set is such a great buy for people. It lets you start up and play both allies and axis which gives you insights into both. Then when you are playing one against the other there is little your opponent can do to surprise you.

 

 

Winning does not equal outplaying. It's usually a byproduct, but many a contests have come down to luck, or bad calls overriding a better contestant. Both of these guys were veteran mini players, but their first game of DW. And when I say Angela won the game, I mean it literally… The Axis player tabled the allied player with Angela. Not a single kill to any of his other units, which he lost all of. Angela and a sniper team single-handedly killed all 150 points of the allied forces. Pounder went down on first turn. Axis obtained initiative the entire game, and we're kept pinned by Angela. Anything that got close died. I know of what I speak. Chess & Go are the only games I've played where outplaying your opponent is pretty much a guaranteed win. In all mini games, dice happen, and having the scissors list to someone else's paper list happens a lot. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Congratulations Shadow4ce, your post has pushed the cumulative intelligence level of this forum to a point that allows me to register and post. I was afraid to post on this forum for fear that few will understand what I would post, because they either do not comprehend statistics/ probability/game mechanics or are too blinded by their own fanboism. It is blatantly clear that this game has massive rock, paper, scissors issues. I would rate the DUST warfare rulebook as one of the best, or even the best rulebook I have ever read if only it ended at page 79. Units or combinations of units that are too good for their point cost should not be allowed to exists. Period. The option of taking multiple units of the same underpriced/ overpowered units should be removed. Unit abilities and weapons effectiveness should be proportionate to their costs (UGLS, snipers, Rocket punch, Jump, laser, damage resilient etc.). Angela + Snipers is just one example of the many broken aspects of this game. I would hate to see DUST warfare devolve into on of those games where the outcome of a battle is determined by the list building meta instead of tactical gameplay.

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slainex said:

Congratulations Shadow4ce, your post has pushed the cumulative intelligence level of this forum to a point that allows me to register and post. I was afraid to post on this forum for fear that few will understand what I would post, because they either do not comprehend statistics/ probability/game mechanics or are too blinded by their own fanboism. It is blatantly clear that this game has massive rock, paper, scissors issues. I would rate the DUST warfare rulebook as one of the best, or even the best rulebook I have ever read if only it ended at page 79. Units or combinations of units that are too good for their point cost should not be allowed to exists. Period. The option of taking multiple units of the same underpriced/ overpowered units should be removed. Unit abilities and weapons effectiveness should be proportionate to their costs (UGLS, snipers, Rocket punch, Jump, laser, damage resilient etc.). Angela + Snipers is just one example of the many broken aspects of this game. I would hate to see DUST warfare devolve into on of those games where the outcome of a battle is determined by the list building meta instead of tactical gameplay.

 

Wow, you don't come across as self righteous or pompous at all! Kuddos sir on seeing that games have hard counter points and balances. I mean I never would have assumed that at all prior to your enlightening my lowly peon mind with your higher level of intellect. Clearly I am an un evolved knuckle dragger who should not assume that reading rules is only half the equation of figuring out how units actually work. I mean here I am think I needed to play games to understand the ins and outs of a systems. As well as the often subtle levels of balance in the game. Golly gee thanks for make me see the light Mister. I mean my clearly challenged mind only saw what occurred in all the play testing I preformed and assumed I could draw conclusions from my experiences thus far. I had assumed that the Angela sniper combo although nice in low point games, lets say 150AP, suffered a lot when played at the competitive level of 300AP because they were an expensive unit and effectively would be taken out by things like a single Long Tom or Pounder artillery strike. I almost assumed this game was fairly designed overall. I also listened to many other people in the gaming community who seemed to draw similar conclusions to mine. I should just walk away from your excellence as I am an husk oh the greatness you represent sir.

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Thanks Guys,

 

I can see many Mark Whalberg "Shooter" moments (like the farmhouse assault).

The RB text gives the "…the unit it's with… inverts rolls… no cover" statement. Just wanting some external confirmation.

 

Best

Luddite

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Sadly, the best remedy to the Angela/sniper combo is possessed by the Germans: Work an artillery spotter team into LOS out of her range and pummel her team with indirect fire from a Hans. A Steel Rain doesn't get to shoot as often, but it does rain a lot…and at 42 points, Angela and her sniper team are not a massive bargain, costing more than any other unit except a superheavy walker.

The Americans need something to do the equivalent of a Hans. Hmm. Perhaps an open-topped Mickey with a real 75mm pack howitzer? That didn't require a Reload, because it actually has enough crew to do the job?

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