Called to Court and Daario/Jorah

[thejibboo 0]

Called to Court

Intrigue Gambit.  When revealed, each player may put an in-house character of printed cost 3 or lower into play from his or her hand.  Each player must choose 1 character he or she controls and return it to its owner's hand, if able

 

Daario Naharis

Mercenary. Traitor. Melee.  After Daario Naharis comes into play, choose and discard 1 Knight or Traitor character from play.

 

Ser Jorah Mormont

Knight.  Ally. Joust.  After Ser Jorah Mormont comes into play, choose and discard 1 Mercenary or Ally character from play.

 

Could someone break down the timing of effects if i use this plot to put into play one of these characters?  I know that Responses would have to wait until after the full plot effect resolved, but what about these "come into play" passives?  Could i put in Jorah, discard a Mercenary, then bring Jorah back to my hand with the second half of Called to Court?  

And a more general question about Called to Court itself:  do i put a character in, take a character out, then my opponent does the same, or do we alternate i put a character in, opponent puts one in, i take one out, opponent takes one out?

[Khudzlin 734]

1) The come into play passives resolve after all when revealed passives have resolved, at the same time passives based on the other framework events resolve (if you're revealing the plot as part of the framework action window in the plot phase). So at that time, the characters chosen to return to hand are all chosen and moribund->hand.

2) Based on how plots like Building Season are resolved, I think the player who revealed Called to Court puts a character into play and chooses a character to return to his hand, then the other players do the same in turn order.

[ktom 598]

Khudzlin said:

1) The come into play passives resolve after all when revealed passives have resolved, at the same time passives based on the other framework events resolve (if you're revealing the plot as part of the framework action window in the plot phase). So at that time, the characters chosen to return to hand are all chosen and moribund->hand.

Note that this doesn't stop you from putting Jorah/Daario into play, then choosing them to be returned to hand, then resolving their "comes into play" passive while they are moribund.

[Khudzlin 734]

 And if you do it, another player after you cannot discard him, because he is already moribund.

[ktom 598]

Khudzlin said:

 And if you do it, another player after you cannot discard him, because he is already moribund.

You mean with their own copy of the character or something? 

[thejibboo 0]

 So with the "when revealed" passive resolving for both players (first the one who revealed the plot card, then the opponent) i would need my opponent to have at least 2 targets for Daario or Jorah for this to work out optimally.  If they only have one Knight or Traitor on the board, they could use the plot's effect to make that card moribund --> hand before Daario has a chance to make it moribund --> discard, right?

[ktom 598]

thejibboo said:

 So with the "when revealed" passive resolving for both players (first the one who revealed the plot card, then the opponent) i would need my opponent to have at least 2 targets for Daario or Jorah for this to work out optimally.  If they only have one Knight or Traitor on the board, they could use the plot's effect to make that card moribund --> hand before Daario has a chance to make it moribund --> discard, right?

Depends on what you consider to be "optimally." At worst, they end up with not net character gain and you end up exactly the same as before the plot was revealed (because you choose to return Daario or Jorah right back to hand).

btw: I disagree that it is "guy who revealed it does everything, then next guy does everything, then…" and so on. I think that since each part is a separate sentence, and a separate effect, you finish each of them separately - completing each sentence before moving to the second. So you go around the table putting cards into play, then you go around the table, returning characters to hand. Think Fury of the Lion. The kneel is complete before the power/attachment discard, even though there is no "then."

[Amuk 9]

thejibboo said:

Called to Court

Intrigue Gambit.  When revealed, each player may put an in-house character of printed cost 3 or lower into play from his or her hand.  Each player must choose 1 character he or she controls and return it to its owner's hand, if able

 Daario Naharis

Mercenary. Traitor. Melee.  After Daario Naharis comes into play, choose and discard 1 Knight or Traitor character from play.

 Ser Jorah Mormont

Knight.  Ally. Joust.  After Ser Jorah Mormont comes into play, choose and discard 1 Mercenary or Ally character from play.

Could someone break down the timing of effects if i use this plot to put into play one of these characters?  

Framework Action: Step 1 You play Called to Court/your opponents play their plot cards. Step 2: Initiative is determined. Step 3: First Player is set. Step 4: "When revealed…" effects occur in the order chosen by the First Player.

So, assuming Called to Court isn't cancelled or otherwise prevented from working as written with what's in your hand:

Step 1: You play Daario per the first sentence of Called To Court (the sequence is the same for Jorah)

Step 2: Save/Cancel.

Step 3: If not cancelled, Daario enters play.

Step 4: Passive abilities trigger: You choose and discard a Knight or Traitor from play.

• I. Passive effects sub-cycle initiated; II. save/cancel; III: execution of passive effect; IV initiation of now-triggered passive effects, and so on. If not cancelled in Step II, the card you chose become Moribund.

Step 5: Responses.

• Response sub-cycle as per Step 4.

Step 6: Action ends. The card you chose goes to its owner's discard pile.

Then you resolve the second sentence in the same order. The card you chose is already out of play and cannot be the target of the second sentence. Daario, however, is now in play (if he wasn't cancelled in Step 2) and can be the target of the second sentence should you decide to do so (i.e., to be able to use his effect again). The two sentences are independent. What matters is that Daario is in play when the second sentence is initiated.

 

I know that Responses would have to wait until after the full plot effect resolved, but what about these "come into play" passives?  Could i put in Jorah, discard a Mercenary, then bring Jorah back to my hand with the second half of Called to Court?  

And a more general question about Called to Court itself:  do i put a character in, take a character out, then my opponent does the same, or do we alternate i put a character in, opponent puts one in, i take one out, opponent takes one out?

Responses occur in Step 5, so they don't wait for the entire plot effect to resolve. You do each sentence in order around the table starting with the First Player, following Steps 1-6 (with any sub-cycles) for each. Each player resolves each sentence of the plot in full (including any passives or responses) before the next player (moving to the left from the First Player) does so.

So, when you play Daario (or Jorah) per the first sentecnce, that entire process completes, then it moves clockwise around the table. Then you start on the second sentence, fully resolve it, and it moves clockwise around the table (obviously, if you are not the First Player, you do your actions when it's your turn).

 

[Ratatoskr 34]

Amuk said:

 

Responses occur in Step 5, so they don't wait for the entire plot effect to resolve. You do each sentence in order around the table starting with the First Player, following Steps 1-6 (with any sub-cycles) for each. Each player resolves each sentence of the plot in full (including any passives or responses) before the next player (moving to the left from the First Player) does so.

So, when you play Daario (or Jorah) per the first sentecnce, that entire process completes, then it moves clockwise around the table. Then you start on the second sentence, fully resolve it, and it moves clockwise around the table (obviously, if you are not the First Player, you do your actions when it's your turn).

I'm sorry, but this is massively incorrect. Passives, and then Responses resolve after all framework events, including all when revealed-effects, have resolved fully.

The timing is as follows:

- Choose and reveal plots
 
- Initiative is counted

- High initiative player appoints “First Player”

- "When revealed" plot effects resolve (In order determined by First Player)
--First "When revealed" plot effect resolves completely.
--b. Second "When revealed" plot effect resolves completely etc.

--Passive effects induced by the steps above resolve.

--Responses to the above are triggered.

Concrete:

A. Plots (including Called to Court) are revealed

B. INI is counted

C. First Player is appointed

D. When Revealed effects resolve. Let's assume Called to Court is the only When Revealed effect.
 -> The player who flipped CtC puts a character - let's say Daario - into play.
 -> The player to the left puts a character into play.
Rinse and repeat until all players have put characters into play.
 -> The player who flipped CtC chooses a character to return to hand
 -> The player to the left chooses a character to return to hand
Rinse and repeat until all players have chosen characters to return to hand.

E. NOW regular passive effects resolve. The player who controls Daario chooses and discards 1 Knight or Traitor from play. Note that he can't choose any of the characters that have been chosen to return to hand, since they are moribund:hand.

F. Responses are triggered

G. All characters chosen to leave play do so.

 

 

[ktom 598]

Looks like Rat beat me to it, but since I typed this monster out, and it's a little more detailed than Rat's, I'm still going to post it anyway.

Amuk said:

Responses occur in Step 5, so they don't wait for the entire plot effect to resolve. You do each sentence in order around the table starting with the First Player, following Steps 1-6 (with any sub-cycles) for each. Each player resolves each sentence of the plot in full (including any passives or responses) before the next player (moving to the left from the First Player) does so.

So, when you play Daario (or Jorah) per the first sentecnce, that entire process completes, then it moves clockwise around the table. Then you start on the second sentence, fully resolve it, and it moves clockwise around the table (obviously, if you are not the First Player, you do your actions when it's your turn).

This, along with the mapping of Called to Court, is very, very wrong.

You are applying full action window steps to framework events and passive effects - which occur within a single window. When you get to a framework action window - like revealing plots - the framework events cycle through steps 1-3 for each event, the proceed to a common step 4-6 for all of the events together. As such, you wait until all framework events are complete until getting to passives, responses, or the end of the window for any one of them. Further, when a single initiated effect (like the "when revealed" text of a plot card) has multiple effects, those effects initiate and resolve together before moving on to passives, responses, or the end of the window for any part of the effect. Even though the effects are independent, the fact that they initiate together means that everything else about them happens together, too.

So, a large number of basic mistakes and/or misunderstandings in the way the timing structure has been applied in the last post. The action window would actually look more like:

Step 1.1: Initiate "Choose and reveal plots"
Step 2.1: Save/cancel vs. choosing/revealing plots
Step 3.1: Resolve choosing/revealing plots (Let's say you have Called to Court and your opponent has Power of Blood)

Step 1.2: Initiate "Initiative is counted"
Step 2.2: Save/cancel vs. counting initiative (eg, Ahead of the Tide)
Step 3.2: Resolve initiative count (high count wins initiative)

Step 1.3: Initiate ""Appoints 'First Player'"
Step 2.3: Save/cancel vs. determination of First Player
Step 3.3: Resolve determination (chosen player becomes First Player)

Step 1.4: Initiate "when revealed" plot text (in FP's chosen order - there is only 1 in this example)
Step 2.4: Save/cancel vs. first "when revealed" plot effect
Step 3.4: Resolve "when revealed" plot effect (In this case, you put a character - Daario - into play from your hand, your opponent puts a character into play, you choose one of your characters to return to hand - which becomes 'moribund:hand' - and your opponent does the same - which also becomes 'moribund:hand'.)

NOTE: According to the FAQ, while resolving "when revealed" plot text is listed as a framework event, it is actually resolves as a passive effect (with plots being resolved before any other applicable passive). So steps 1.4-3.4 could also be listed as Steps 4.1.I - 4.1.III.

Step 4: Passives. This is where passives to anything that happened in Step 1.1-3.4 take place. What this means, for example, is that you do not resolve passives to revealing plots until the First Player is chosen and all plot effects have been resolved.
Step 4.1.I: Initiate Daario's "comes into play" passive, targeting an eligible (non-moribund) character.
Step 4.1.II: Save/cancel vs. Daario's effect
Step 4.1.III: Resolve Daario's effect (chosen character is discarded and becomes 'moribund:discard').

(continue step 4.x.I - 4.x.III until all passive effects are resolved)

Step 5: Responses. This is where you play Responses to anything that happened in Steps 1.1 - 4.x.III, or earlier in Step 5)
Step 5.1.I - Initiate Response
Step 5.1.II - Save/cancel vs. Response
Step 5.1.III - Resolve Response
Step 5.1.IV - Resolve passives activated by resolved Response

(continue step 5.x.I - 5.x.IV until all response effects are triggered)

Step 6: Window (finally) ends. Physically remove any card that became moribund in steps 1.1 - 5.x.IV from the table.

 

Big things to note regarding Called and Daario: The card(s) returned to hand by the plot become moribund in 3.4, so they are not eligible targets when Daario chooses his target in 4.1.I. Also, if Daario himself is the one returned to hand by the plot (Step 3.4), he will be moribund and his passive effect will still happen in 4.1.I - but he will not be an eligible target for his own effect.

[Ratatoskr 34]

ktom said:

Looks like Rat beat me to it

~Aaaahhhh, finally. FINALLY. So, how does it feel to get a taste of your own medicine, huh? Huh?

[ktom 598]

Ratatoskr said:

ktom said:

 

Looks like Rat beat me to it

 

 

~Aaaahhhh, finally. FINALLY. So, how does it feel to get a taste of your own medicine, huh? Huh?

~Eh, you did it first. I did it better. 

[Ratatoskr 34]

ktom said:

~Eh, you did it first. I did it better. 

 

~Dude, more ain't better, always. After my clear and concise explanation, everybody will just go like tl;dnr when they glance at your incoherent ramblings.

[Amuk 9]

ktom said:

NOTE: According to the FAQ, while resolving "when revealed" plot text is listed as a framework event, it is actually resolves as a passive effect (with plots being resolved before any other applicable passive). So steps 1.4-3.4 could also be listed as Steps 4.1.I - 4.1.III.

Thanks for the correction. This appears to be the point I misunderstood. So, while I don't like being publicly wrong, I'm glad I posted this so I could learn the correct sequence.

[ktom 598]

Amuk said:

ktom said:

NOTE: According to the FAQ, while resolving "when revealed" plot text is listed as a framework event, it is actually resolves as a passive effect (with plots being resolved before any other applicable passive). So steps 1.4-3.4 could also be listed as Steps 4.1.I - 4.1.III.

 

Thanks for the correction. This appears to be the point I misunderstood. So, while I don't like being publicly wrong, I'm glad I posted this so I could learn the correct sequence.

Just be aware that the same is true for individual framework actions as well as for passives. For example, after you reveal plots, you do not run through passives, responses, and removal of moribund cards for revealing plots before moving on to counting initiative.

It's actually a pretty common misunderstanding. It shows up more in the Challenge phase, where people want to respond to winning the challenge before settling claim, etc.

[thejibboo 0]

 Thanks, guys.  While i can't yet confidently answer these questions for myself, i've at least reached the point where i fully understand the nuanced explanations when they're given!

[Khudzlin 734]

ktom said:

Khudzlin said:

 And if you do it, another player after you cannot discard him, because he is already moribund.

You mean with their own copy of the character or something? 

 

That is exactly what I meant.

Can you explain why this case is different from Building Season, where you wait for the other player to reveal their location before you search for yours?

[ktom 598]

Khudzlin said:

Can you explain why this case is different from Building Season, where you wait for the other player to reveal their location before you search for yours?

In Building Season, the search and reveal are part of the same sentence - ie, the same effect. So full resolution includes both things. In Called to Court, the "put into play" part is in a separate sentence from the "return to hand" part. Therefore, they are completely independent effects. Finish the one independent effect before moving on the the second.

[tarkin84 0]

Hi,

I have another question regarding these two characters. If there is a Fortified position revealed, do they get to discard a character?

Thanks in advance.

[ktom 598]

No. Their text to discard doesn't initiate until after they are in play. But as soon as they are in play, Fortified Position blanks them. They are blanked before their text would initiate, so nothing is discarded.

[Khudzlin 734]

Thanks for the explanation, Ktom.

[player1657144 0]

Can the "return to hand" part of CtC's effect be saved against?  I'm just wondering because it specificaly that you must return a character to your hand "if able" which to me implies that if there is a way to do it, you have to do so.  Since saving a character is optional and you could choose not to do so, would the "must… if able" wording mean that you'd have to make the choice that best meets the requirement laid out by the card text?

[J_Roel 7]

You must choose a character to return to hand, this doesn't mean that you can't then save them from being returned. Saving them doesn't change the fact that you chose to return them to your hand, satisfying the effect.