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Tetsugaku-San

Dark Heresy: Second Edition - ever likely to happen?

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macd21 said:

 

 

Not as much as they listen to the distributors ordering supplements of the current edition.

Um, I'lls ay it again just in case you missed it - but I don't want a new edition that stops the supporting books to become useless or need changing in any way, just a newer, better written, 1.5 version.

It would stimulate sales of the supporting books, not decrease them.

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Tetsugaku-San said:

Um, I'lls ay it again just in case you missed it - but I don't want a new edition that stops the supporting books to become useless or need changing in any way, just a newer, better written, 1.5 version.

It would stimulate sales of the supporting books, not decrease them.

Amen!

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Tetsugaku-San said:

 

Um, I'lls ay it again just in case you missed it - but I don't want a new edition that stops the supporting books to become useless or need changing in any way, just a newer, better written, 1.5 version.

It would stimulate sales of the supporting books, not decrease them.

Again, it doesn't matter. You won't get a 1.5 edition until sales of the current one dry up to the point that it is no longer worth FFG's time to publish them. And one of the goals of a new version (whether 1.5 or 2) would be to allow them to release new versions of the support books with updated stats.

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macd21 said:

 

 

Again, it doesn't matter. You won't get a 1.5 edition until sales of the current one dry up to the point that it is no longer worth FFG's time to publish them. And one of the goals of a new version (whether 1.5 or 2) would be to allow them to release new versions of the support books with updated stats.

 

Well then, again I'll say that this

"You won't get a 1.5 edition until sales of the current one dry up"

Has no basis in reality, "dry up" meaning what, no sales at all, or just less or what?

And this:

"And one of the goals of a new version (whether 1.5 or 2) would be to allow them to release new versions of the support books with updated stats."

Is totally putting your thoughts into someone else, you have no idea that this is the case. It could be one of the goals yes, equally the goal could be to reinvigorate their oldest 40K line with new players who would be likely to pic  up some of the really quite large back catalogue, a back catalogue that requires no writing and editing, therefore is costing FF no money.

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Tetsugaku-San said:

macd21 said:

 

 

 

Again, it doesn't matter. You won't get a 1.5 edition until sales of the current one dry up to the point that it is no longer worth FFG's time to publish them. And one of the goals of a new version (whether 1.5 or 2) would be to allow them to release new versions of the support books with updated stats.

 

 

 

Well then, again I'll say that this

"You won't get a 1.5 edition until sales of the current one dry up"

Has no basis in reality, "dry up" meaning what, no sales at all, or just less or what?

And this:

"And one of the goals of a new version (whether 1.5 or 2) would be to allow them to release new versions of the support books with updated stats."

Is totally putting your thoughts into someone else, you have no idea that this is the case. It could be one of the goals yes, equally the goal could be to reinvigorate their oldest 40K line with new players who would be likely to pic  up some of the really quite large back catalogue, a back catalogue that requires no writing and editing, therefore is costing FF no money.

FFG are a company. They want to make money. There are certain tried and tested ways of making money in the RPG industry - certain things that work and certain things that don't. The creation of new editions (or '.5' editions) is one of them.

Sales will eventually drop to the point that it is no longer worth their while publishing them. That is what I refer to when I say 'dry up' - I think I made that quite clear. DH hasn't quite reached that point yet, but eventually it will. At which point FFG will either stop making the game entirely or else release a new edition.

And no, releasing a 1.5 to 'reinvigorate' sales of the old supplements doesn't work. Those sales have already been made for the most part. While releasing a new version might bump up interest in the older products it wouldn't be enough to justify the cost of new print runs. Instead they will use the increased interest in the game to support entirely new supplements (many of which can be old products with a fresh coat of paint). This allows them to sell to both old and new customers.

 

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macd21 said:

Again, it doesn't matter. You won't get a 1.5 edition until sales of the current one dry up to the point that it is no longer worth FFG's time to publish them. And one of the goals of a new version (whether 1.5 or 2) would be to allow them to release new versions of the support books with updated stats.

Had sales of the 3rd Edition D&D rulebook 'dried up' before they published 3.5? I could be wrong, but my impression was that WotC came out with the corrected/updated 3.5 rulebook because they were worried that all the glitched in 3.0 might hurt the long-term survivability of the system- which is also a potential problem for DH.

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Adeptus-B said:

Had sales of the 3rd Edition D&D rulebook 'dried up' before they published 3.5? I could be wrong, but my impression was that WotC came out with the corrected/updated 3.5 rulebook because they were worried that all the glitched in 3.0 might hurt the long-term survivability of the system- which is also a potential problem for DH.

???

DnD 3.0 published in 2000

DnD 3.5 Published 2003

 

I think DH is out of that ball park since it is in year five.

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ItsUncertainWho said:

I think DH is out of that ball park since it is in year five.

Well, DH has lower sales than D&D did during the big WotC re-launch, so a direct year-per-year comparason doesn't really work. The larger point is that I don't see how having the game system dependant on a rulebook that is widely known to be error-filled can not be having a detrimental effect on long-term sales.

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Revising an existing RPG is a tricky business. If they don't change enough then the question is, "Why?" If they change too much they risk losing part of their customer base. It's also an expensive product. What would they have to do to get people who have already spent a small fortune on books to spend more? I think this is why they expand outward (Black Crusade, Only War, etc) and haven't made new versions of Dark Heresy. I would love to see them come up with more bargain options, such as bundlepacks, softcover versions, etc. Not in place of the gorgeous hardbound books, but as an option to expand their customer base.

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Adeptus-B said:

Had sales of the 3rd Edition D&D rulebook 'dried up' before they published 3.5?

Yes. Or rather they were dropping quickly. I think they could probably have had worthwhile sales for a while longer, but they weren't satisfied with the numbers they had.

Adeptus-B said:

I could be wrong, but my impression was that WotC came out with the corrected/updated 3.5 rulebook because they were worried that all the glitched in 3.0 might hurt the long-term survivability of the system- which is also a potential problem for DH.

No. The purpose of the .5 edition of DnD was not to fix the glitches in 3.0, but to justify the re-release of the corebooks and the introduction of 'new' supplements. The changes were pretty small, while at the same time there were enough of them to force people to buy the books again if they wanted to be compatible with the new material. The company didn't fear that the 'long-term survivability of the system' was at risk from the issues that were changed - that simply wasn't an issue or a consideration. What mattered was the number of orders they were getting from distributors, which had started to drop.

Adeptus-B said:

 

Well, DH has lower sales than D&D did during the big WotC re-launch, so a direct year-per-year comparason doesn't really work. The larger point is that I don't see how having the game system dependant on a rulebook that is widely known to be error-filled can not be having a detrimental effect on long-term sales.

Long-term sales? As has been pointed out Dark Heresy has already been around for 5 years. That is long term sales as far as an RPG is concerned.

An RPG is going to succeed or fail in its first two years. If it is still around in year 3 then it is a success, but its glory days are behind it. Sales drop through the floor at this point. But if you've had a good two years then you've probably built up enough of a fanbase that you can continue to publish supplements and expect them to turn a profit. Not a huge profit, mind you, but generally enough (what is 'enough' varies from company to company) to justify one or two supplements a year. However this level of sales isn't enough to justify much else (such as an updated '1.1' edition of the rules). It doesn't matter at this point if a system is 'error-filled' at this point because you've already secured your fanbase (if it mattered to them that much they would have stopped buying your products ages ago) and you aren't attracting much in the way of new customers anyway.

What happened with DnD 3 was that WotC decided that they couldn't be bothered doing this. They'd already been working on 3.5 since the release of 3.0 so they decided to release it a little early. Again, it wasn't really about fixing anything (they ignored far more issues than they fixed), it was just about setting the clock back to zero and releasing the core material again.

Usually after 4-6 years the number of sales will have dropped to the point that even one or two supplements a year isn't worth it (there are some companies that keep releasing material after this point, but they aren't really doing it for profit). Once you get to that point a company will usually release a new edition or else drop the game entirely.

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macd21 said:

Adeptus-B said:

 

Had sales of the 3rd Edition D&D rulebook 'dried up' before they published 3.5?

 

Yes. Or rather they were dropping quickly. I think they could probably have had worthwhile sales for a while longer, but they weren't satisfied with the numbers they had.

Adeptus-B said:

 

I could be wrong, but my impression was that WotC came out with the corrected/updated 3.5 rulebook because they were worried that all the glitched in 3.0 might hurt the long-term survivability of the system- which is also a potential problem for DH.
 

 

No. The purpose of the .5 edition of DnD was not to fix the glitches in 3.0, but to justify the re-release of the corebooks and the introduction of 'new' supplements. The changes were pretty small, while at the same time there were enough of them to force people to buy the books again if they wanted to be compatible with the new material. The company didn't fear that the 'long-term survivability of the system' was at risk from the issues that were changed - that simply wasn't an issue or a consideration. What mattered was the number of orders they were getting from distributors, which had started to drop.

Adeptus-B said:

 

 

Well, DH has lower sales than D&D did during the big WotC re-launch, so a direct year-per-year comparason doesn't really work. The larger point is that I don't see how having the game system dependant on a rulebook that is widely known to be error-filled can not be having a detrimental effect on long-term sales.

 

 

Long-term sales? As has been pointed out Dark Heresy has already been around for 5 years. That is long term sales as far as an RPG is concerned.

An RPG is going to succeed or fail in its first two years. If it is still around in year 3 then it is a success, but its glory days are behind it. Sales drop through the floor at this point. But if you've had a good two years then you've probably built up enough of a fanbase that you can continue to publish supplements and expect them to turn a profit. Not a huge profit, mind you, but generally enough (what is 'enough' varies from company to company) to justify one or two supplements a year. However this level of sales isn't enough to justify much else (such as an updated '1.1' edition of the rules). It doesn't matter at this point if a system is 'error-filled' at this point because you've already secured your fanbase (if it mattered to them that much they would have stopped buying your products ages ago) and you aren't attracting much in the way of new customers anyway.

What happened with DnD 3 was that WotC decided that they couldn't be bothered doing this. They'd already been working on 3.5 since the release of 3.0 so they decided to release it a little early. Again, it wasn't really about fixing anything (they ignored far more issues than they fixed), it was just about setting the clock back to zero and releasing the core material again.

Usually after 4-6 years the number of sales will have dropped to the point that even one or two supplements a year isn't worth it (there are some companies that keep releasing material after this point, but they aren't really doing it for profit). Once you get to that point a company will usually release a new edition or else drop the game entirely.

 

Thats quite interesting to read. How did you come up with that information? As I recall AD&D (1st Ed or whatever) lasted quite a bit longer than 4 years and 2nd edition was around fo rlike 5 or so years before 3rd came out

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AD&D 1E was in print for nearly two decades before AD&D 2E came along.  I think a 2E of Dark Heresy is inevitable unless FFG loses the license and this game system/universe is shuttered.   Will it come soon? Maybe, but comparing it to other game lines and what has worked for them isn't likely to work.  Most companies are different.  Many of White Wolf's games went through two or three iterations over a ten year time period with each new edition updating the metaplot.   Different companies do different things.  I'm sure that if FFG thinks a Dark Heresy 2E will sell well, they will do it, sooner rather than later.

 

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andrewm9 said:

Thats quite interesting to read. How did you come up with that information?

Discussions over the years with various people in the industry. You can also see it through simple observation of RPG releases.

andrewm9 said:

As I recall AD&D (1st Ed or whatever) lasted quite a bit longer than 4 years and 2nd edition was around fo rlike 5 or so years before 3rd came out

AD&D 1 was the most popular RPG at the height of RPG's popularity. This allowed it to sustain itself far longer than is the case today. TSR probably would have made more money had they released more editions at the time, but the company was very poorly managed. 2nd ed was released in '89 and likewise shouldn't have lasted as long as it did, but TSR didn't really understand how the market worked. They eventually tried to release a '2.5' edition (skills and powers) in an attempt to revitalise the line, but it was too little too late.

They heyday of the RPG industry is well behind us. Even DnD can't survive for more than a couple of years without a new edition. Different companies have tried different methods to increase the time between editions, but none have been very successful. Companies that don't depend on RPGs for their income (White Wolf, GURPS) can afford to extend the lifespan of the games, but it doesn't change the amount of income from them.

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This is Huge! 

 

But I will reserve any judgement until such time where I've read it. So in about ten minutes.

 

On the other hand, this is still a first step- and I will be sure to contribute extensively to the Beta. 

 

Does anyone how much player input affected the Only War Beta?

 

Edit- though its a shame there isn't some sort of discount for the Hardcover copy :P I guess its 20$ for a chance to contribute at a better game. 

Edited by Saldre

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So nice to be able to finally talk about this! Watching all the "Is Dark Heresy dead?/Will there be a second edition?" threads for the past few months has been a nightmare.

 

BYE

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I have to say that this looks very, very interesting and I'll be sure to get my grubby little hands on this book as soon as it gets out. I'm sure to get this goodie to myself as soon as possible. 

 

What I can say is that I am actually a little sad that we are leaving the Calixis Sector for a new setting. Calixis seems so close to me right now that I think I will miss it. Hopefully this new sector will however be close to Calixis so that we can have games played in both without to much hazzle.

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There's nothing stopping you from using the new rules to play Calixis games. I'm not sure how the rules will be changed, but it seems like most of the combat stuff is gonna be taken from Only War/Black Crusade.

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There's nothing stopping you from using the new rules to play Calixis games. I'm not sure how the rules will be changed, but it seems like most of the combat stuff is gonna be taken from Only War/Black Crusade.

 

It's not. This isn't a new iteration of the existing rules. The combat rules are almost completely different and are not taken from BC/OW.

BYE

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A friend of mine just bought the Beta download. Sounds like it's going to be a complete re-write, not just an update. Here's my friend's summary:

 

  • Same scale as DH1.0 (400 xp per session)
  • Ranks go to 10 but the XP land about half way through DH1.0 rank 12 (we would be considered half way through rank 5
  • Characteristic advances are costed based on the characteristics current bonus (current bonus x base cost). So if have a BS 32 (bonus of 3) and you are buying a BS advance, where the base cost is 100, than is would cost 300xp. Your next advance would also cost 300 xp, but the third one would cost 400xp (because your BS would be 42). You can increase any characteristic a number of times equal to your rank--Yes, rank 10 characters can buy a characteristic bonus up to +50!!)
  • Skill bonuses are based on the current rank of the skill (first time buying a skill gives you rank one). The cost of a skill is (base cost x rank purchased). So if you were buying Dodge rank 3 and the base cost was 150, it would cost 450xp.
  • Generating Characteristics is 2d10+25. There is a new characteristic--Influence
  • Character creation stages are: Home World, Background, and Role
  • Home World (Feral, Forge, Highborn, Hive, Shrine, Voidborn) grants characteristic bonus/penalty, fate points, an ability/trait, and a mental trauma
  • Background (Administratum, Arbites, Telepathica, Mechanicus, Minitorum, Imperial Guard, Outcast) grants starting skills, talents, equipment, an ability/trait, and a malignancy
  • Role (Assassin, chiurgin, Deserado, Heirophant, Mystic, Sage, Seeker, Warrior) grants a special ability, base characteristic costs and a VERY SHORT skill advancement list... like 20 items.
  • ALL lore skills are wrapped into one skill called Remembrance. But Common, Scholastic, and Forbidden lore are three different uses of the skill, having different base characteristics (Per, Int, WP respectively). Other skills are also bundled into "super" skills where the "sub" uses can be based on different characteristics.
  • MANY more detailed weapon qualities, better fleshed out.
  • DIFFERENT damage scale--all (most) weapons have new stats!?!? As is armor!! (ie lower damage, lower AV)
  • Mechanics are different here too. Weapons have a single ROF (again, lower), but that is *per* Action Point spent to fire the weapon.
  • Items can be damaged, and there is a chart to resolve the effects. You need to track status level of equipment (from 0 to 3)
  • Cybernetics seem simplified, but better laid out.
  • VERY detailed vehicle and mounted combat
  • Psionics: 45 psychic powers, 5 disciplines, no minor powers. Each discipline has its own unique perils of the warp chart--and there is not a second chart to roll on.
  • Combat: Each player gets 4 AP to spend per turn. So a weapon with an ROF of 2 can fire twice per AP spent (some weapons have and RoF of 1/2 or 1/3!!). This works for ranged and melee. Types of actions are very similar to DH1.0 (Attack, Move, Utility, Reaction, Extended, and Free)
  • Your fatigue level is compared to the characteristic bonuses. Any that are lower than your fatigue level are considered fatigued. If you perform an action based on a characteristic that is fatigued, you must spend an additional Action Point to perform it. 
  • Damage: It seems like it will be easier to increase Toughness, so the lower armor values should actually offset each other to a degree. A longer list of Damage conditions. Still have the multi-page crit tables, by location, by damage type.

So, not compatable with anything that has come before, I'm guessing...?

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There's nothing stopping you from using the new rules to play Calixis games. I'm not sure how the rules will be changed, but it seems like most of the combat stuff is gonna be taken from Only War/Black Crusade.

Its true that I can still put the games in the Calixis Sector, provided that I will do a ton of work to upgrade various different Calixis-specific things to the new rule system. And by the sound of it, the new system is very, very different.

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Gurkhal, could you explain which Calixis stuff you'd have to update to make it fit? Supplement stuff, sure, but most of the things are pretty much the same fluff wise, it's the rules for how the game is played that's changed. 

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