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LCG? Cam someone explain to me what to expect?

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I'm no stranger to Netrunner or CCGs, but I don't really know what they mean by LCG. I looked at the link for it and I'm still a bit puzzled. Anyone care to explain?

Thanks

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 LCG is like a boardgame with a new mini expansion about each month. There is one pack with known cards released about each month and no random cards like boosters. Also there is no rares, commons etc.

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LCG stands for "Living Card Game" and it's a distribution model.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_npm.asp?eidm=14

It means that there won't be any randomized starters or boosters. If this follows the format of previous LCGs, there will be a "Core Set" containing a 2-4 fixed decks (mostly a x1 distribution of cards in the core set), and monthly expansions of 60 cards (x3 of each card), a "large expansion" coming out every now and then offer 165 cards (x3 of 55 cards).

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Hmm,any overlap between any expansions, small and/or large? Or will all expansions be unique?

I can't quite seem to find an answer to this question.

And I don't feel like digging through the card database at cardgamedb.comcool.gif

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Okidoki.

And what about the disparity between coreset and expansions? It seems that the coresets have 1 copy of a card and the expansions have 3 copies of each card. Of might we same the same 3x distribution in the core set with this game?

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We're not sure what the Core set will have yet.  The Call of Cthulhu Core set has 1x copies of all cards in it.  The Lord of the Rings Core set has a mix of 1x, 2x, 3x.  I've already started another thread asking about this but there is no official answer yet.

I'm pretty sure there is no chance the Core set will have 3x all cards, that would not show new player enough different cards to give a good overview of the game.

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The LCG is just a slightly different way to get your cash than a CGG. It is nearly identical in most things apart form the fact that in the long run it is cheaper.. as in a LOT cheaper… but that is not to say that it is no expensive.

There are 2 major problems with the LCG moddel.

Unlike say "Magic the Gathering" there is no cycling out of sets. This means that late commers to the party have a HUGE outlay of cash to be able to play even remotely competitively. For example.. if you tried to play CoC now and didn't want to get crushed .. due to CoC having so many factions (this game has 7 now apparently) and each pack only having like 1 or 2 cards per faction… a good deck requires you to own like 80% of all the packs ever released. This means to be competitive, you basically need to own the entire game archive. So a new commer to coc has a initial outlay of 100s and 100s of dollars b4 they can even play at the local game store with older players.

This is a MASSIVE problem with the LCG model. One they could fix by selling faction packs. It isn't the LCG model itself that is the problem, it is the fact that the cards are spread so far apart.. as in only 1 or 2 cards per faction per pack… to get a deck you need lots of packs.

The 2nd problem is not the LCGs fault.. but I see it in a lot of players… something about how the LCG is.. I am not sure. but it is super addictive. You think you will not spend to much.. it is sort of advertised as "pick and choose what pack you want to build "x" deck… but in reality you are adding a monthly charge to your bills. Most players will buy every pack as they are released. This can add up fast. Again, this is cause that so few cards for w/e faction you like is released at any time.

Again that is not really FFGs fault.. but it is something to be aware of. If you liek the game chances are you will buy everything.

Still the other problem is real and terrible. Like if you like this game and have a bunch of packs and a mate really likes it after playing at your house one morning after a night at the pub.. then he will NEVER be able to buy his own cards and play independently of you unless he wants to fork out 5-600 bucks in one go to buy the entire collection.

So start buying from the very start is my advise.
 

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I agree that coming in late can leave you feeling like you want to buy everything that's out, which can be expensive.

But this is your choice, it's not forced on you.  You don't need to own everything to make a good deck.  You will need more than just a Core set, sure, but not everything there is.  Take any high level tournament deck and list off the source of all the cards and I'll bet there are lots of packs that aren't used at all.

I started playing Call of Cthluhu a little over a year ago.  In that time, I've gradually collected most of the expansions.  I still don't have the Dreamlands cycle (waiting for the reprint), or my 3rd Core set (I only have 2), and I haven't picked up the latest pack yet (supposed to get it Tuesday).  But, that's happened over about a 13-14 month period, and because I wanted to.  I could have skipped a lot more and still felt like I could make plenty of good decks from it.

 

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I started playing Game of Thrones at the end of the Kings Landing cycle, so I was already 3 cycles plus a few deluxe expansions behind. In that time I have caught up and own every card. It took a few months to do so but it can be done. Just don't expect to do it overnight unless you have an insane amount of disposable income then go right ahead. gran_risa.gif

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fritsk said:

Okidoki.

And what about the disparity between coreset and expansions? It seems that the coresets have 1 copy of a card and the expansions have 3 copies of each card. Of might we same the same 3x distribution in the core set with this game?

You will never see a core set released with 3x of all the cards. Unless FFG wanted to also include suggested deck lists with the packaging, 3x of all cards in a core set makes for a cumbersome game. All the starters in the LCGs i've played (except maybe CoC) have been highly playable right out of the box. To get multiples of the really nice X1 cards in the core set means buying more core sets…. but this is meant to be an entry level product and not a complete set.

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booored said:

@dboeren

What?! You do not own Dreamlands? This is shocking me!

I wasn't willing to pay for 3 copies of each pack under the old printing model.  Actually though, just this past week I was given a copy of 3x all the Common cards from Dreamlands by a friend of mine who *did* buy 3 copies of each pack and thus has a surplus of these cards.  So, I guess that means that now I have half of the Dreamlands cards.  I'll still buy the real packs once they're reprinted to get the other half.

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dboeren said:

I wasn't willing to pay for 3 copies of each pack under the old printing model.

I've got a massive number of playable decks from just 18 packs (plus some 60-card reprints of a few 40-card packs), one deluxe and one core. Getting the 60-card reprints should be low priority, but when you do you can have many decks ready for battle with variations :)

The first Summons of the Deep pack gave me three of some nice item, spare copies of a character I was using and another 3x a monster to stick into another deck. I've also got some of the good, old CCG cards cheap off eBay to pad out. I only play with my own decks anyway. A friend picks two decks, chooses which to play, off we go. I've got some monodecks, some combinations, generally only using 2 factions and occasional neutrals. I haven't even gotten into making conspiracy decks yet, which I think might be fun. I'm just trying to make thematic decks as good as possible, then my gaming friends benefit as much as me. If you can't choose between three great old ones, why not pick all three and let the course of the game decide for you? 3x every card is so boring ;)

 

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booored said:

Unlike say "Magic the Gathering" there is no cycling out of sets. This means that late commers to the party have a HUGE outlay of cash to be able to play even remotely competitively.
Well, when did Magic start cylcing out sets? IIRC, this started only after thousands of cards had already been released. Cards for the LCGs are released at a much slower rate, e.g. CoC has only just reached 1000+ cards.

In theory there's nothing preventing FFG from deciding to cycle sets out at some point in the future.

And besides, LCGs are _still_ a lot cheaper if your goal is to get a complete playset.

 

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I think as important as when is why.

Cycling out cards helps keep the pressure on to have to buy new stuff, otherwise customers with a bunch of OP cards from earlier sets may be able to remain competitive with them.  It acts as a release valve on power creep, which is very useful in a game which is intentionally unbalanced.  It also helps get rid of old mistakes and help clear the design space.  New cards can come in which wouldn't have been used while a more powerful alternative existed.

I'm not sure any of these apply to an LCG.  Now you have a game with a much smaller pool (no need to clear design space for a LONG time), plus it's a game which tries to keep balance so you don't need to prod people towards abandoning old cards to buy new ones.  People will buy the new cards to expand their play, and because they're minimally priced compared to a CCG.

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this isn't an argument of ccg models vs lcg models. There is no doubt that the LCG model is better for the player cash wise in the long run. The fact still remains though that if you come late to the game there is a huge outlay to just START playing, while in a ccg model with cycling all you need to do is by cards in the current cycle and you are right in the thick of competitive play.

In a LCG if you come late then you need to buy many packs all in one go.. a game like aGoT this is 100s and 100s of dollars. A cost you need to spend b4 you can even play a single game, unless you all start at the same time of course.

This is the biggest failing in the lcg model, one that could be fixed or at least lessened with faction packs rather than mixed factions packs i think. It is also sort of a hidden cost. The LCG is marketed as a pick and pay kind of system were you can choose what packs you want to build a certain deck, but the fact that each pack only has 1 or 2 card for each faction means that the decks are spread over the entire release of the lcg. Go an look in any of the LCG forum deck lists if you want proof.

Again this isn't a chat about lcg vs ccg… this is a unique problem in teh ffg lcg model and one new players are largely unaware of and should be. The reality is, that if you want to play this game you need to buy a pack once a month and every month.. witch is eactl;y what most people do.. and if you fall behind and then decide to start playing at teh local store or enter a comp, then you will have to buy all the packs you missed b4 you can even make a deck.

 

LCG's have restricted and banned lists to do the balancing instead of card cycling out. No LCG has cycled out any cards.

Exactly my point,

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CCG's have the same problem, just in their case you need to buy singles that can cost as much as $295 a card or buy boosters and hope you get lucky with what you get. So the cost of starting up is an issue for both models and not unique to LCG's. At least when I spent a bunch of money and traded in my magic collection I knew I was getting every card for AGoT. Catching up on WoW TCG has been harder so far.

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booored said:

this isn't an argument of ccg models vs lcg models. There is no doubt that the LCG model is better for the player cash wise in the long run. The fact still remains though that if you come late to the game there is a huge outlay to just START playing, while in a ccg model with cycling all you need to do is by cards in the current cycle and you are right in the thick of competitive play.

In a LCG if you come late then you need to buy many packs all in one go.. a game like aGoT this is 100s and 100s of dollars. A cost you need to spend b4 you can even play a single game, unless you all start at the same time of course.

I just can't agree with this.  You're saying that you cannot play the game AT ALL unless you own every card.  I think you need to make a distinction between being able to play the game and being able to build any conceivable deck, which is what you really seem to be talking about.  You can start playing with a small collection, as small as just a Core set.  You may not be competitive with a skilled player who has a huge card pool but…

1.  Isn't it natural anyway that a new player in a game of skill and judgement should not expect to be competitive with veteran players when they start? I sure as hell wouldn't expect to be, that's an unrealistic expectation.  Don't just blame the cards as if they're the only thing holding a new player back.

2.  You say "in a ccg model with cycling all you need to do is by cards in the current cycle and you are right in the thick of competitive play".  OK, how *MANY* cards?  Probably 100's and 100's of dollars of them, at least.  I guarantee you can't buy $50 of Magic boosters and be right in the thick of competitive play with people who've spent much more acquiring the powerful rare cards.

3.  Why are you so focused on having to have every card in existence before you can play at all?  You can build a good enough deck to have a good time with a game out of a pretty small collection.  You can build a more competitive deck with a moderate collection.  I'm pretty sure most new players in a game are not concerned yet with whether their deck can win the World Championship tournament, they just want to play a fun and interesting game which does NOT require 100's of dollars of cards.

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The problem of the money-threshold for new players exists, especially in games where you don't have a player in your vicinity and which you can't play solo. Then a regional tournament would be a great opportunity to meet many other players, and get to know many well-thought deck ideas.

After playing LotR and being very satisified with that game and especially the LCG distribution model, I thought about starting with CoC and attending the nearest regional for it this year. (My brother doesn't like the game and there's no CoC player around.) But because of the faction splitting in each AP, even a cheap tournament-able deck would cost me roughly 300 € (or even more, I didn't do testing), an amount which I just can't afford right now. Faction-packs would really help me (assuming that the price per card isn't differing too much from usual APs). But I doubt that FFG will create them.

For LCG vs. CCG: You don't need to buy all the cards for the current sets for CCGs, I guess a booster draft or sealed tournament can be pretty cheap.

So I'm waiting excitedly for the new A:N game. It looks very promising, esp. the competitive and assymetric gameplay :-) And buying every month a 10 € pack is much more easier than investing a lot of money immediately.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the LCG model! I will not buy a CCG again, too much money went into it when I've been a kid. With LCGs, you know exactly what you get when you buy a pack, the amount of wasted cards is reduced enormously. But the starting threshold really can be an issue…

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I don't know if we'll ever see faction packs.  One reason is that it's not typical to just play one faction, as you might in a miniatures game.

First, a high percentage of decks for Call of Cthulhu (which is also the game that has the most similar faction breakdown to Netrunner at the moment) consist of more than one faction.

And second, it's common to want to switch to different factions frequently.  You may have favorites that you play more, but I know I don't stick to the same ones.  I've got a mono-Syndicate deck I like.  I have a mono-Cthulhu deck.  Right now I'm working on a Hastur/Yog deck.  After this I'd really like to get into a Silver Twilight deck, I don't even know who I'll be pairing them up with yet.  Sometime I'd like to get back to making a new Shub Niggurath "Dark Young" themed deck like I ran at Gencon last year when my collection was still so small that I had to supplement it with Syndicate to have enough cards.

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dboeren said:

 

 

1.  Isn't it natural anyway that a new player in a game of skill and judgement should not expect to be competitive with veteran players when they start? I sure as hell wouldn't expect to be, that's an unrealistic expectation.  Don't just blame the cards as if they're the only thing holding a new player back.

2.  You say "in a ccg model with cycling all you need to do is by cards in the current cycle and you are right in the thick of competitive play".  OK, how *MANY* cards?  Probably 100's and 100's of dollars of them, at least.  I guarantee you can't buy $50 of Magic boosters and be right in the thick of competitive play with people who've spent much more acquiring the powerful rare cards.

3.  Why are you so focused on having to have every card in existence before you can play at all?  You can build a good enough deck to have a good time with a game out of a pretty small collection.  You can build a more competitive deck with a moderate collection.  I'm pretty sure most new players in a game are not concerned yet with whether their deck can win the World Championship tournament, they just want to play a fun and interesting game which does NOT require 100's of dollars of cards.

 

 

 

1 - This just isn't true. Tale a deck made with 1 copy of core and say 3 of the latest packs and go and make a deck that can even make a dent in other peoples decks. Gencon is coming.. lets see how well your deck dose. It will not do anything, do not say that it will.

2 - No, as Pete pointed out you can go to a event and enter a Sealed or a Draft pool for about 20 bucks and have a fun night hanging out at a store with other gamers in a competitive environment. A night at FNM cost less than going to a movie and you cna even make money if you pull a good mythic to sell back to the store.

3 - Well as Pete said.. organised competition is the only way for some people to even get to play this game. And for that you need good decks and for that you need the card pool. If you start playing with a friend, then sure you can start playing with just a copy of core or w/e.. but most people have no one to play with at all, and their only way to play is though player events

Now I like the LCG model, I do think it is cheaper than CCG. As i said this IS NOT a ccg vs lcg debate.. we ALL know how much the CCG model sucks, and LCG is tons better.. that dose not mean lcg is flawless. Pointing out teh CCGs are expensive is like saying the sky is blue. What is your point? Stil this initial cost is a real thing, and one I think is the major cause of these lcgs nvr getting super popular among the gaming comminuty. Well they are popular but many players find they have no one to play with.. why? Cuase a store can not just have a open day and go.. "Hey CoC or aGOT tonigh.. have people turn up and play, The players need to come with 100s and 100s of bucks worth of decks. There is nothing to store can sell them to allow new commers to just sit down and play with vets (like a sealed or draft pool) so the store makes zero bucks and if it is a constructed event, only people that already own teh cards turn up, as no new commer can't even enter with a hope to last 1 round.

This is a flaw in the design of the LCG. A "hidden" flaw and one new comers should be made aware of.. "If you are late to a LCG you have a large outlay of cost b4 you can even start to play" End of story.

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