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Miniatures quality, army bundles and some ramblings...

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Ghrik said:

blkdymnd said:

 

 The plastic quality is not a concern to me.  It's not nearly as soft as the AT43 stuff and holds detail moderately well.

 

 

 

I'm curious as I never had an AT-43 figure in hands, is there really a such a big difference?

 

There really is.  The plastic that Rackham used was so soft and bendy, also held very little detail.  Vehicles were better and more rigid, but the infantry were bad.

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So we're not talking about Tannhäuser-level bendiness here, are we?

 

Sometimes I'm sad when the argument about "these miniatures costing more, but requiring less to play with". One would think more miniatures are a quality of itself, and that one could always play smaller games or "skirmish" rulesets with 40k figures. But I suppose it's often about the whole package of "miniatures with intended, official rules" (the GW Hobby tm.) and not exploring the entire sci-fi gaming spectrum.

 

I for one would be glad to see Dust miniatures duke it out with Space Orks...

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I think the prices are fine. If you want to compare to gw stuff, they are priced on point cost of the unit. Like 5 terminators for $50 plus you have to build them! Witch is fine if you like that.

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oDESGOSTO said:

Sevej said:

 

What do you mean by this? So far, a box set in Dust Tactics is complete. Compare that to 40k. If I want to equip my Tactical Squad with heavy weapons other than missile launcher, I have to get Devastator Squad. Or if I want the sergeant to have Power Fist, I have to get the Assault Squad box. In Dust Tactics, you'd never have to resort to other box set in order to use your unit. Even the walkers are 3-in-1, and you can change them between games! It has nothing to do with power gaming.

 

 

What I meant was simple, you can play with the contents of the box in both cases. You're only seeing the glass half-empty and I will contest with the glass half-full... GW provides you a box with a full squad with options to have both Special and Heavy Weapon (1 each), just like Dust. But if you want to customize your army GW provides an array of options IN ADDITION to those in the box set.

You've said you want to equip your Tacts with other HvWp than Missile Launchers. You're right, you can equip your squad with other weapons besides those who came in the box. Can you do the same in Dust?! Can you change the weapons of your Commanders?!

Also, you can do the same you do in Dust Tactics Walkers to 40K Walkers, applying magnets or using long pins to change weapons.

As you can see, I can also write a biased opinion in favour of 40K game. But that's not the reason why I came here. I came here to know if FFG intents to produce better quality miniatures that fit their pricing range. I don't care if I can throw my miniatures against the wall and they don't break, I simply dislike to see bent barrels/antennas/stuff, and the "feel" of the soft plastic. And I don't feel the pricing of Dust Tactics infantry miniatures justify their materials.

That's kind of the point of Dust: a cleaner system that's much easier to get into. Sure you have bajillions of options in 40k. But how much do you really need? I hear about "magnetizing" weapon options A LOT, but very few people have actually done it. And in some cases it's simply too difficult for the ordinary guys to do it (Predator sponsons???). 

I'm not seeing the glass half-empty, I'm just pointing the good points of having a simple system such in Dust. I own a Space Marines army, so I'm not a 40k-hater. I'm simply telling you what Dust has done better compared to 40k. They're different games, but if I want a simple game with less hassle to get into, I'd get Dust. When I got into 40k for the first time, I had to scour boxes content. I want a Tactical Squad with Lascannon, only to find I have to buy expensive metal Lascannon (there was no Devastator plastic back then). On the 4th edition of Space Marine codex, I wanted to get a Tac Squad with chainswords (forgot the trait name), it was difficult to find enough and I'm not really in a location where I can trade with a lot of other players. With Dust, it's not necessary. Sure, you don't have a lot of options, but hey, you can't have everything.

If you want lots of options (and think that scouring sprue pictures fun, like me) go 40k. If you want a cleaner, tighter system, then get Dust. I can see the merit of both systems.

And being pre-primed, for me personally, is a godsend. The foundation/base paint line throws the primer color factor out of the window.

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Sevej said:

I'm not seeing the glass half-empty, I'm just pointing the good points of having a simple system such in Dust. I own a Space Marines army, so I'm not a 40k-hater. I'm simply telling you what Dust has done better compared to 40k. They're different games, but if I want a simple game with less hassle to get into, I'd get Dust. When I got into 40k for the first time, I had to scour boxes content. I want a Tactical Squad with Lascannon, only to find I have to buy expensive metal Lascannon (there was no Devastator plastic back then). On the 4th edition of Space Marine codex, I wanted to get a Tac Squad with chainswords (forgot the trait name), it was difficult to find enough and I'm not really in a location where I can trade with a lot of other players. With Dust, it's not necessary. Sure, you don't have a lot of options, but hey, you can't have everything.

If you want lots of options (and think that scouring sprue pictures fun, like me) go 40k. If you want a cleaner, tighter system, then get Dust. I can see the merit of both systems.

 

What I really want is a better game (ruleswise), and I thought I could find it here.

As for miniatures quality, I know I have high standarts due to the laptop miniature gaming.

 

I'm eager to have this book in my hands and try this ruleset, and I'm very curious to see if Andy Chambers remained "actual" after all these years.

Once I'll have the book and try the game I'll look for alternative miniatures.

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 I also play WM/H, and while I don't think the DW minis are quite as nice as those, I still think that they're really nice overall. Durable, good detail, pre-assembled and pre-primed. You can literally open a box and immediately start painting (or playing, if painting isn't your thing), which is amazing. I personally think they're a great value.

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 I played GW products exclusively for over 15 years and assembled 16 different fantasy, 40k, and LOTR armies (large ones too). I love the dust models. They are way more durable, have nice detail and the one thing that I have ever had come out of the box bent is antennas on the radiomen… which were easily straightened. Having amassed about a thousand star wars minis in the last two months (you heard that number right), the dust models are nowhere near the softness of those minis. They have big bending issues, the dust models do not in my experience. And being a long time collector of warhammer and 40k stuff, the cost to play dust is NOWHERE NEAR the cost to play those games! For the price of 2 full on armies in Dust (that are both well over the tournament standard points limit) I could not even buy one tournament ready 40k army, not even close. For what I payed in Dust models and the rulebook (which cost me 28 bucks to my door not 90 dollars!) I would only be half way there to a tournament sized 40k army and it would be a bad army without any of the proper loadouts actually needed to compete in such a setting. I'm not sure where you are comparing prices from. It must be the cheapest 40k retailer vs the most expensive premium line dust retailer, I dunno.

I pay between 12 to 15 dollars (shipped to my door) for an average squad in dust, this would be 25-60 (hello 5 terminators, I'm looking at you) bucks if it was GW and that doesn't count for the fact that the dust box becomes a decent chunk of your army while the GW box would be a drop of water in the bucket. Try to compete in fantasy without having monstrously sized units… impossible. To use the Imperial Guard reference that you talked about (I have 4000 points + of Imperial Guard with 2 super heavies myself), try to play Imperial guard using just a grenade launcher and flamer in each squad and see how competitive you will be. And for Imperial Guard, you will have to buy tons of infantry boxes at 40 bucks plus each(probably higher now with the yearly price increases) and a bunch of high priced tanks (at twice the price of a Dust walker) to be at a tournament level points army… and not a great one unless you buy more weapon bits, etc. My IGs didn't get good until I ammassed a huge collection of 40k armies which allowed me to have enough bits to actually make my armies good, and still I didn't have enough bits to truly make all the units the way I wanted them and I own Necrons, Orks, White Scars, Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Imperial Guard for 40k and all are well over 2000 points… and with a whole closet full of bits there are still a few meltas short here and there through my armies.

I'm not bashing GW or 40k (though I certainly could and would if you had a few hours) but to compare price with GW and say GW is cheaper somehow or only 2 bucks more, etc, is hilarious to me. I will stand a Luther Panzer next to a dread and the panzer looks like a nicer, crisper model and is much much bigger for half the price or less (light/medium walkers cost me 20 bucks to my door). While the infantry models don't have quite as much little pieces of detail as some 40k models, they are not that far behind, look great, are not covered in skulls everywhere, and are infinitely more durable. They paint great, I have not had all these mold line issues that you have mentioned so maybe you are unlucky, AND I can play two different games with them. This cannot be more important IMO… I am playing a warfare game at my LGS later today with another hobbyist… but I played tactics on the coffee table with my brother last night who could care less about tabletop gaming last night and had a blast for an hour.

In the end, if you are already looking for excuses as to why you don't like dust warfare or the models before you ever get your hands on them, then don't bother with them. Stick to 40k. If you are pre-disposed to find fault with it, then you most certainly will. I for one enjoy playing GW games and Dust, along with star wars minis that I play on the tabletop with custom rules, and battlefield evolution. I enjoy wargames…period. But I am into Dust more than anything right now and do not buy anything else from GW anymore at all, not one thing anymore… because of, well, price. Switching to a cheaper, inferior resin, raise the price… June is almost here, another price increase… If you just talked model detail or hard plastic vs softer plastic (I say softer because it is by no means soft plastic) I would probably would have nothing bad to say about 40k (the rules are geared towards 13 year olds but I can accept that) but once you threw a price comparison into it and tried to say the price comparison favours 40k/GW, you totally lost me.

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Strombole said:

In the end, if you are already looking for excuses as to why you don't like dust warfare or the models before you ever get your hands on them, then don't bother with them. Stick to 40k. If you are pre-disposed to find fault with it, then you most certainly will. I for one enjoy playing GW games and Dust, along with star wars minis that I play on the tabletop with custom rules, and battlefield evolution. I enjoy wargames…period. But I am into Dust more than anything right now and do not buy anything else from GW anymore at all, not one thing anymore… because of, well, price. Switching to a cheaper, inferior resin, raise the price… June is almost here, another price increase… If you just talked model detail or hard plastic vs softer plastic (I say softer because it is by no means soft plastic) I would probably would have nothing bad to say about 40k (the rules are geared towards 13 year olds but I can accept that) but once you threw a price comparison into it and tried to say the price comparison favours 40k/GW, you totally lost me.

 

Man, I feel you!
I'm just looking for a perfect excuse to get stuck in this game and be out of 40K! I've already did it with Warmachine that brought me out of Fantasy and the lame 8th Edition rules. I'm not liking the current rumours of the 6th Edition of 40K, I don't buy Finecrap models because I find them on eBay in their original material (metal) or just convert some plastics to make the desired model, but the rules of 40K are just killing the game.
And so I need a fresh new wargame to play with my friends, but the bendyness of these models… that's my main concern! :(

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 As I said, I haven't found it to be an issue at all. I compare it again  to Star Wars minis which are definitely a soft plasctic. Keeping a lightsaber straight is like the 12 labours of Hercules! For Dust models, the vehicles don't have any bedyiness issue at all and in the soldiers I have only had a problem with antennas. I have heard of issues with Angela's long sniper rifle but I don't have that model. The difference between this and a star wars minis lightsaber is while it is near impossible to straighten out a star wars mini, straightening a dust antenna isn't too hard. Personally, I like the fact that they have some bend. I can't tell you how many skinny little antennas have broke of off vox casters and 40k tanks over the years. I got sick of trying to locate them in the bottom of my carrying case and glue them back on at this point. When it is skinny and hard plastic it will snap from almost nothing, they just break off without much problem, when they are a little pliable, they bend, they don't break, then you bend it back.

If they "bendyiness" is the only thing keeping you from trying dust tactics/warfare, then I would say to find a ccheap retailer online somewher where you can buy a cheap 10 dollar 5 man box, pay a few bucks for shipping and give them a try. If you find them to be too "bendy", you are not out much and should have no problem cutting off the bent antenna or weapon or whatever and gluing on a lasgun and calling him something else and use it for 40k or whatever The other thing I love about dust models is how they swivel at the waist and head. When you are painting them (and they take paint well right out of the box) it is easy to get all the areas painted easily as you just turn the model at the waist etc to get at what you need to. When you are done, you can just glue it down, or for most of them I just leave them, that way I can pose them on the fly.

Also for vehicles, it is awesome to not have to buy multiple vehicle boxes to use different vehicles/lists in games or have to resort to using magnets (which can be a real pain in the behind sometimes if it works at all). In all the walker kits I have (I have 9 of them) swapping the weapons to make different variants is a simple matter of popping off these arms and putting on those ones. For the allied medium walker, it is even easier as they give you two different turrets in the box. If you want to use the Steel Rain variant today you just take off the pounder turret and put on the steel rain turret. Its a total of 3 seconds to switch between variants if you want to use a different tank, whether because you want to try something new, or need to save a few points for a different points level or whatever. 

But if opening the box and finding a bend antenna on the radioman will bother you, then you will be bothered, as it will be bent… but it won't even be broken when you pull it out or drop it on the floor either.

Rules-wise… it is not perfect. But for an early first edition of a game, it is exceptional and has a certain elegance to it, even when it's being clunky. Easy to learn and hard to master is the best way to describe it. It is complex where it needs to be and simple where it needs to be and that is rare for a first edition game a few months into its life.

And the fact that they killed Hitler and de-nazified Germany allows you to choose to play as the Germans without feeling like a total douchebag… a very welcome touch, IMO. I am playing axis today as the other guy only has allies (I have both so can play what he doesn't have). If it was nazis, I would have a hard time wanting to tell people that I'm playing as the Nazis. But in this game, I can say the word Panzer without feeling like a slimeball!

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 I hear you on the bendy models but after playing a few games with them really it's not that big of an issue. Very few figures have pieces thin enough and long enough to become bendy. That said this really isn't the game to start your "art project" on. You can get a great paint job on the figures but you will always feel like if the models were made differently then you could do just that little bit better. One good thing is that you can paint these faster than most models from other manufacturers. Really with Dust you are probably looking at doing the tabletop quality model for most of your troops and doing a high quality job on heroes and walkers. And I'm finding that that looks good on the table unlike my Malifaux crew of 8 models which looks awesome but I couldn't fathom painting 50 models at that quality for just to start.

The preprimed concern- your only concern should be if you have trouble with thinning your paints or mixing paints because while the detail is good you can not slather on thick coats like you can on many other manufacturers products. The details are subtle and you will need to plan according to make use of colors that build quickly without thick layers of shading. So thin the paints and don't use cheap paint. Use paint with a high pigment count like P3 or GW foundry. Those can be thinned and won't lose their coverage ability. For metals use a bottle your trust. Don't use an old bottle because again you will need to do thin layers and the metal flakes in the paint will not lay right if it's an old drying out bottle where the paint bears more similarity to snot than paint. Also the primer isn't thick and seems to fairly neutral colored so getting bright colors isn't difficult. 

Otherwise I think Dust is a good investment. Paolo seems to be slow in bringing out new content for the story but he does seem committed to the product and supports it through conventions. Also there is a separate site Dust Models which makes models in the Dust Warfare scale for the game in the Dust 48 product line. really it looks like you can play this as small or as large as you want. 

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 And the Dust 48 allows you to build the models if that is your thing and don't want them pre-built. They cost a little more, but are outstanding models. I really want that allied troop carrier boat and am in the process of adding considerable amounts of water terrain to my table just for units like that.

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Well, it's already been said that the cost situation is different between the US and Europe. That being said, I'm going to put in my $0.02 anyway.

A 300-point tournament leve army will probably consist of a couple of platoons with 3 and 4 squads apiece, three walkers, an artillery observation team, and a sniper team. This will cost about $275 US retail, and include the cost of the revised core set. Now, to buy a 1500-point tournament army for 40K (consisting of normal Marines), the cost runs to about $350 US, or more. Bit of a difference there.

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Okay so I really quick just wanted to throw out my two cents on this topic as it is one of valid concern. Are the miniatures worth the quality? Well okay to be fair I will preface my opinions and statements with in general I am what is referred to as a “Power Gamer” I am always trying to find the most OP broken thing to use and run with, so I am not a huge hobbyist when it comes to my miniatures I want them to be table top quality and useable because I play the game and my models will show it (as in they fall and break and get repaired a LOT).


As far as Quality VS Value I would say the Dust Walkers are by and far the best deal on the market for any miniatures game. They come with they come with their weapons options as well as pre assembled and primed. I have several walkers now and I have not noticed any major problems with mold lines or miss assembled models (which is more then I can say when compared to stuff I have gotten from GW). The plastic used in them is a very durable yet malleable enough that it lends itself well for conversions. As for the models themselves they are indeed a softer plastic. I have had a couple of issues with this type of mini mostly only in models that have long thin bits (certain guns and antennas) I have fixed a few without issue and as long as I store them properly I have no problems after fixing them. Painting wise they paint up just fine, although I would suggest repriming depending on your color scheme as they tend to be primed dark and it’s a pain when painting things in lighter colors (whites, oranges, yellows). The models do have a much higher level of durability thanks to them being of a softer plastic which I enjoy because I have had several times in the past had a GW model fall of the table and then explode into a thousand pieces (really sucks when this happens at a tournament). These models I have thrown across the room and they have just bounced and been fine, not going to lie that’s a selling point for someone who wants his models to hold their quality over time with heavy use. Comparing the soft plastic to standard GW though I would say for modeling aspects I agree that the GW plastic kits are better then anything else on the market for that, but when compared to fine cast which is super bad imo because it breaks easy and is actually a nightmare for assembling and quality wise ( cant even count the times where and unsteady hand took a little too much of that flash line off or how many finecast models I have had to send back because out of the box they were un salvageable).


Bottom line though is to build a playable army in Dust you need FAR fewer actual models which is also a selling point for me. When I look at how much I spend on my standard size Space Marine army it was ( JUST for the models mind you) over $600. Now I look at what I am spending on my standard size Axis army and I am at around $150 I think that alone speaks for itself. As a 40K player I think Dust is a good financial and balanced game. The thing people who play 40K need to realize with Dust is the game is actually VERY well balanced so no matter what you buy and play with your will find it works well there is no OP army you need to keep buying in order to stay competitive or on top of it, yet another reason I like this game is fiscally I don’t need to keep pumping money into my addiction. Honestly I have most everything I currently need for Dust and I find myself wanting to find a way to spend more money on it only I cant. I think I have a problem.
 

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 Don't worry Denied they will release the new medium walkers and eventually the aircraft for axis and allies and some new heroes. There will be plenty to consider purchasing. And if you are like me then you are considering buying up a new structure like I want to do an axis powers pacific theater force in addition to my German European force.

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I still have a soft spot in my heart for 40k and Fantasy.  I have a rather large Orge and Tyranid armies.  I still miss Chronopia and Warzone and have a couple of armies for both packed away.  I have a bunch of VOR and Dark Age figs tucked away also.  Dust Warfare is the first game that actually made me pull all my other figs out and start taking stock of them to sell.  I will hang onto my Tyranid  just to see if 6th edition is worth playing but Dust Warfare hit the spot for me.  Decent to great figs and vehicles that are already put together and ready to paint combined with a WW2 theme, great price point, and really fun set of rules that create fun back and forth game play.  Combine that with easy to learn rules that still offer a  tactical challenge with the phases, suppression and reaction system and I am sold.   gran_risa.gif

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 The SSU walkers are great models and rival anything GW puts out.  They feel like wargaming models.

 

The infantry do indeed suffer from being soft plastic:   too many warped/bent gun barrels kills the visual for me and makes them seem cheap.

I wish they used harder plstic as well…

 

 

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Quick fix for the bendy models for players new to this style of miniature posted in the "Review of the SSU thread".

Quick version: Hot water for a few seconds, cold water held straight, problem fixed unless you don't store your minis well, then they'll just bend again.

They're not GW quality plastic, they never will be. But they're great sculpts, in my opinion, and once you learn the differences in handling, prepping, and painting them, they look awesome.

Just one guy's opinion,though. YMMV.

~Craig

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 Or a hair dryer and cold water. I tried this on modeLs i have already painted and it sorted the problems out. It's scary how flexible they get when heated -but a quick dip in some cold water and problem sorted!

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Well, I was lurking the forums and I went into this topic: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

For you who were saying that this game is good to buy and cheaper than GW's and it offers everything-in-a-box… well, guess not.

One of the points in my OP was the lack of army bundles for this game. If FFG don't change this, and the issue reported on that topic, I fear for this game.
As the miniature gaming world is right now a company needs to hear their comunity and solve their problems, or just as easy as I'll get out of 40K into this game I could get out of this game into another one (and DropZone Commander models keep bugging me!).

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oDESGOSTO said:

Well, I was lurking the forums and I went into this topic: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

For you who were saying that this game is good to buy and cheaper than GW's and it offers everything-in-a-box… well, guess not.

One of the points in my OP was the lack of army bundles for this game. If FFG don't change this, and the issue reported on that topic, I fear for this game.
As the miniature gaming world is right now a company needs to hear their comunity and solve their problems, or just as easy as I'll get out of 40K into this game I could get out of this game into another one (and DropZone Commander models keep bugging me!).

 

I don't get your point honestly. This game is noticeably cheaper to buy into then 40k and significantly cheaper across the boards even with the hand full of models you can only get from Bitz sites or the Dust Tactics box sets and expansions. It simply is cheaper the numbers are their and true for everyone no matter where you go. Additionally (although it may not be a major selling point) when ever you buy something for Dust Warfare you are getting two games in one unit as everything can be used in Dust Tactics as well. This is a very intelligent marketing move to use an existing line of miniatures and launch a new game with them. Effectively you double the life of your miniatures line this way. It may seem confusing to some people at first purchasing the models and which rules belong to what units, but it is in the long run not very difficult to figure out how to get a hold of miniatures at very affordable prices.

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 I don't quite get what he is saying either. So does he want a 150 dollar SSU battleforce box full of what costs us 80 bucks to buy individually right now… because that is what GW would give us. The Space Marine battleforce box is going to cost that much, and give you a fraction of what you need for an army and be poorly geared with the options they give you. Is that what you are asking for? Because 25 guys and a tank for Dust warfare right now buying them all individually only costs me 70-75 bucks plus shipping at my retailer, not 130 plus taxes even bought in store… and that is before the GW price increase which will be here very very very soon and will further increase the price of that battleforce box. And where the "tank" that they give you is a dinky "rhino", the tank I can get for my 75 beans would be a great big beefy punisher heavy walker tank. Seriously, where are you comparing prices from…. or is being Canadian really that awesome? I'm buying from an American site too and still with shipping to my door 25 guys and a heavy walker would cost me only 92 dollars all in… and again, I chose the more expensive heavy walker, it would be much cheaper with a smaller walker choice, which is by the way, all you get with the "rhino" equipped GW "box sets". They are not giving out land raiders for 150 bucks, they are giving out tacticals, scouts (yep scout marines) and a chintzy "rhino". 

Are these the great "box sets" that we are missing? And this only matters for SSU which hasn't even been truly released yet, there is a box set out, its called the core set and gives you two complete and legal armies for 72 dollars shipped to my door is what I payed… And let's not even mention that the core rulebook that cost me 40 bucks to my door essentially is the rules (a 90 dollar GW book in their game) and two codices for allies and axis armies (another 50 bucks from two books from GW).

Are these the prices you think we should be striving for? You're right…. costing less is a big drawback… partido_risa.gif

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Y'know oDESGOSTO, you could try buying a box or two of Dust miniatures, to see for yourself what they are like/if they are as bad as you think they are. Heck, if your order from Miniaturemarket.com a box of Armor 2 troops will only put you down $10-$12. Not a bad price!

Just a thought…

 

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