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Only War versus *Anything* Else? No ELDAR book...?

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Im with Blood Pact on this one

Playing creature with mindset much more narrow than Space Marine isnt great material for RPG, it was hard to RP space marine for more than 30 gaming sessions, now imagine someone who limit himsealf to just one aspect of warfare or life, also no or as little emotions as possible. 

PS: Eldar corebook should be named "Love can bloom"

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Having finished the book, I'd say that the Dark Eldar really do seem to actually the best option available for player Characters. Corsairs are also viable, but there's a number of reasons to go eith Dark Eldar over them, such as simple fact that they have a tabletop army (ie: they're actually catering to 40K players, specifically Dark Eldar fans). And thinking of the Rangers in a new light, it always did seem that while they could wander far and wide, it did always seem to be for a greater purpose to the craftworld (collecting lost soulstones, patrolling the Webway and Maiden worlds, etc.).

But getting back to the Dark Eldar, you can count on their mercenary attitude, and that they'll always look out for their own best interests first. Any Rogue Trader worth their Warrant should be able to ensure those interests are the same as their interests. And in threads elsewhere it's been alluded to that the upcoming book is just crammed full of great Dark Eldar info... I'm really hoping there will be stats for Reaver Jetbikes. But I'm personally positive we'll see at least as much as there was for Orks and Kroot. And while some will no doubt ***** and moan about the reprinting of old material, like Dark Eldar weapon stats, I'll be quite glad to have them all condensed in one spot. I'd rather not have to dig through Into the Storm for my Splinter Pistol's stats.

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Actually, corsairs do have an army list, though it's Forgeworld material (it's in their latest Imperial Armour book). As for the rangers, yes, they will usually take a request from their craftworld or do something that benefits it, but that should hardly come as a surprise. They are eldar, they will likely look out for the interests of other eldar, especially ones they know; I'd expect that they'd be willing to give a hand to exodites or harlequins, too (probably not Dark Eldar though - frakking renegade scum). As for having a narrower viewpoint than Space Marines, that comes as a bit of a surprise to me. Space marines are supposed to have years of indoctrination before they are actually considered true marines, including when they sleep (hypno-doctrination); then the vast majority of their waking time is spent either training or fighting. I doubt the space elf hobo assassins can beat that.

On the other hand, the Eldar already played a significant role in one of the RT adventures, and they missed including a career for them there. Soul Reaver gave as much as could be hoped for under the circumstances. I still wonder if "Only War" wouldn't work much better as a Dark Heresy book, but I imagine the DH rules are starting to show their age. Still, I'm not keen on spending 60 dollars so I have a rule errata... and I've never cared that much about the Guard.

@Boruta 666 - how about "From Ulthwe with love" ? . I'd rather paint it on the side of a D-Cannon, though ;) .

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That's the thing that's not covered as much, because the Codex only covers a limited part of it, they really are more limited. They focus on the various 'Paths' as a way of staving off temptation and falling in to the decadance that consumed their race in the past, and while they hardly are required to be aesthetics, they live rigid lives by necessity. A Striking Scorpion, Warlock, Painter, and Ranger might come together to go on 'adventures' from time to time (mainly battles), but they don't move in the same social circles necessary to all just hang out together in their off hours as well, to provide a proper game. And it's infinitely less likely that they'd ride around on a starship with a bunch of mon'keigh. Even if just because the the Dark Eldar 'class' being a Kabalite Warrior meaning the Craftworld equivalent would be a Guardian.

I haven't seen the Imperial Armour book with Corsairs yet, but previous material on them did lead me to believe they'd make a good choice. But like I said, the Dark Eldar simply have more prestige when it comes to the 40K audience that the games are aimed at. I'm sure some folks really would prefer and many more appreciate having the Corsairs fleshed out in the RPG more than they generally have been in the wargame. But I know a lot more people (and so does FFG) would want to play the Dark Eldar. Myself included (me and another player are planning on making a pair of Dark Eldar, and slowly subverting control of the ship). There's a wealth of material to work with, much of it brand spanking new from their awesome Codex, and FFG can tap in to that with the excellent style they've been doing so far with most everything in the game.

Harlequins would make a great game on their own actually. They all have a reason to be together in a group, there's a variety of 'classes' to play, they're something wholly new. It'd probably be about the same XP level as Deathwatch though, but opinion of that is up to personal preference, really. They would also be a good choice for including in to a RT game, except for what I said about XP level. Harlequins are far beyond even the respectable skills of a Kabalite Warrior.

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Eldar core book would be great but  it is  hard to find good main theme and different careers. As I am reading your posts I see that you are all thinking in similar way. Common citizena of craftworld aren't limited to one path and they are changing them whenever they want to do so. When I am thinking about careers in Eldar core book I see only one solution for different PC. All of them would be on Path of the Outcast but most important difference would be in their past. I would make something similar to RT character creation. They will have option to chose path that they had been following before being an outcast. This solution provide you ability to have warlock, striking scorpion and painter in a team. The biggest problem for such team would be equipment beacouse its is near impossible to find scorpion claw outside the shrine.

Sorry for my English but it's not my native language.

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If they could change the Paths whenever they wanted, with ease,, they wouldn't need them now would they? Or they just wouldn't be doing their job.

Consider an Exarch. Each of the types of Aspect Warrior are a different Path, emulating a different aspect of the Eldar wargod. And the Exarchs are those Eldar who become too focussed on the Path, to the point where it could be said that that focus consumes them, and they can't break away from it. Other Paths, like those of the Farseer and Warlock (?). are for life as well, albeit a willing choice. Anyway, the Exarchs aren't the only examples of Eldar who have gotten 'trapped' in a Path because they grew too focused on it, just the only ones most of us have experience with because of the game. It can and does happen to others, leaving some Eldar trapped as a painter forever, and such. They're trying to keep their souls from being eaten by a God they birthed through their own decadance and hedonism, they're not going to be that casual about this thing.

While at the same time, the focus on the Path provides many benefits. For one simple example, the fact that a former Striking Scorpion just doesn't have the same fighting skills as one that is currently following the Path, equipment aside. As if being on the Path hones their abilities in the associated field.

Though I think an Outcastes game would work, the Eldar are free from the Path, and able to explore themselves fully during that time. Though I still don't think there's as much potential to be found as with the Dark Eldar.

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But how many exarch do you have on craftworld? 30? 40?  Earchs are beyond common citizens because they cant put off their warmasks. Farseers ale something like exarchs within ranks of trained psykers. You are focusing on these few cases when you can't act normaly and become trapped on one path. Yes I know that former Striking Scorpion isn't as good as one that is following the path but I wasnt saying that outcast who was within ranks of striking Scorpions is killing machine. I am talking about giving player few benefits. I don't much about Dark Eldar but i always  used to think that they are closer in way of acting and thinking to followers of Khorne or Slaneesh. Dark Eldar are pirates, murderes and slavers who love killing, torturing and causing pain to their victims.

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FreezeZ said:

I don't much about Dark Eldar but i always used to think that they are closer in way of acting and thinking to followers of Khorne or Slaneesh. Dark Eldar are pirates, murderes and slavers who love killing, torturing and causing pain to their victims.

That is an accurate, but basic, assessment of the Dark Eldar.

However they are only like followers of Khorne and Slaanesh on the surface. Their motivations and desires are very different. By nature they are an ambitious race, and excellence comes easily to them. The Dark Eldar consider themselves the inheritors of the fallen Eldar Empire, and generally continue to live the decadent lifestyles they lived before The Fall. They're like the Imperium in a way, in that they're trying to deny that they've fallen from the greatness they once had.

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How many exarchs on craftworld? i bet is something between 5 and 100000. Nobody know how big craftworlds are, they can be just big ships with population around 100k or less or on other hand it could be that craftworlds may house billions of eldar...

Also if u are trapped on certain path, your past before that path becomes blurry, just like some childhood dream. In One of the earlier Eldar dex there is story about exarch, how he forgets all before his current path, he was poet before, driver and many more, now he is just Aspect Warrior, he even forget his friends, lovers and such.

Also exarch is only eldar who don't need his ritual mask/helmet, he is already bound to Khaine.

From my knowledge Dark Eldar and outcasts are the only types with RP potential and sense. Also Dark Eldar have freedom of doing as they want (except being psykers), they can be bad, very bad, or very very bad, still in wh40k that makes them almost good guys. xD

PS: in eldar corebook they must put rules about eldar - human love. As we know 80% of mixed campaigns will turn into twilight in space. (sarcasm filter off)

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boruta666 said:

From my knowledge Dark Eldar and outcasts are the only types with RP potential and sense. Also Dark Eldar have freedom of doing as they want (except being psykers), they can be bad, very bad, or very very bad, still in wh40k that makes them almost good guys. xD

 

Get real ;) . Dark Eldar may have fallen in a lot of ways, but they can still hold their own in the "Top 3 guys you never, EVER want to fall in the hands of" right there with Slaanesh daemons and the particularly vile CSM bands.

 

Let's have some perspective here: the ancient eldar were such extraordinary, mind-blowing psychopaths they created the Chaos God of excess, kink, and mind-numbing nastiness by having their dead souls coalesce in the warp. Dark Eldar started like that and have had millenia to refine their wicked ways. That merits some respect, here.

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I would very much like Eldar sourcebook (I’m not Eldar/elves fanatic, Tau sourcebook will by nice too). I know there are problems like power balance, aspects and Eldar society (culture) norms that make Eldar based game harder to create. But it’s not impossible. Me and my team wanted Eldar sourcebook form the start of Dark Heresy. If you FF not sure about reception, let them make a poll. It’s easy, who would like Eldar core book, who sourcebook, and so on.


There can be a separate Eldar game (Craftworlds) or expansion for Rogue trader (my favorite w40k game). If it’s possible to create Ork character, and Krot! Who are more alien than Eldars, what’s the problem in creating Eldar characters (previous aspect and now pirates, or something like that)? There are a lot of new books in Black Library, that give us solid background to Eldar society and character.


On the other hand, Only War is in my opinion poor choice for new game. It should be expansion for DH or DW. If I will buy Only War (and for the first time in W40k FF games I’m not sure), that’s only as sourcebook for other W40k games.


Sorry for my English
 

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I dunno if FFG or GW really knows that  a good portion of their fanbase hates all things Imperium based, both due to their presentation, and due to their tabletop army.

Constantly seeing Space Marines on the other side of the table, and listen to their self-righteous blah blah about their marines, etc, always left a bad taste in my mouth. I was happy my Eldar never lost to Space Marines, but it sure didn't endear the Imperium of Man to me.

Now, in the RPG, all I have an option to play is the hated Imperium of Man. Not exactly top notch. I'd rather play a Twilight Vampire than a Space Marine.

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boruta666 said:

Im with Blood Pact on this one

Playing creature with mindset much more narrow than Space Marine isnt great material for RPG, it was hard to RP space marine for more than 30 gaming sessions, now imagine someone who limit himsealf to just one aspect of warfare or life, also no or as little emotions as possible. 

PS: Eldar corebook should be named "Love can bloom"

 

Howdy,

 

If you read the novels and fluff, this is not always the case…

Eldar and Dark Eldar have been portrayed as complex characters with VERY human emotions.  You can argue that this is a limitation of the authors, but it fits in nicely with the limitations of us roleplayers. :)

It is tough roleplaying Marines - it all depends on the nature of the campaign and the goals of the other players.  Role-playing in a military genre is inherently limiting, which is why most military RPGs flop.  In the case of DW, the background is so different, the toys so cool, and the Marines so GODLIKE, that it adds lots of spice. :)

Cheers,

 

Ken

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Blood Pact said:

That's the thing that's not covered as much, because the Codex only covers a limited part of it, they really are more limited. They focus on the various 'Paths' as a way of staving off temptation and falling in to the decadance that consumed their race in the past, and while they hardly are required to be aesthetics, they live rigid lives by necessity. A Striking Scorpion, Warlock, Painter, and Ranger might come together to go on 'adventures' from time to time (mainly battles), but they don't move in the same social circles necessary to all just hang out together in their off hours as well, to provide a proper game. And it's infinitely less likely that they'd ride around on a starship with a bunch of mon'keigh. Even if just because the the Dark Eldar 'class' being a Kabalite Warrior meaning the Craftworld equivalent would be a Guardian.

I haven't seen the Imperial Armour book with Corsairs yet, but previous material on them did lead me to believe they'd make a good choice. But like I said, the Dark Eldar simply have more prestige when it comes to the 40K audience that the games are aimed at. I'm sure some folks really would prefer and many more appreciate having the Corsairs fleshed out in the RPG more than they generally have been in the wargame. But I know a lot more people (and so does FFG) would want to play the Dark Eldar. Myself included (me and another player are planning on making a pair of Dark Eldar, and slowly subverting control of the ship). There's a wealth of material to work with, much of it brand spanking new from their awesome Codex, and FFG can tap in to that with the excellent style they've been doing so far with most everything in the game.

Harlequins would make a great game on their own actually. They all have a reason to be together in a group, there's a variety of 'classes' to play, they're something wholly new. It'd probably be about the same XP level as Deathwatch though, but opinion of that is up to personal preference, really. They would also be a good choice for including in to a RT game, except for what I said about XP level. Harlequins are far beyond even the respectable skills of a Kabalite Warrior.

Howdy,

A player version of the Eldar would have to be a Harlequin (a Solo away from the troupe?), Ranger (explorer of ancient Exodite worlds), Corsair (adventurer), or on the Path of the Outcast (the no-brainer).  You could set up quest-based scenarios for the other paths, but it would fall apart quickly or soon after their goals are met.  You could certainly offer career paths for other Eldar professions, but I think that you would have to come up with a mechanism to use those as background/earlier paths, culminating in the Outcast/Ranger/Corsair/Harlequin careers.  My 2-cents.

The Dark Eldar would be a solid player career, based on fluff and the books.  A renegade Kabalite, Wych, Haemonculus, etc seeking power/wealth/revenge/whatnot.  It would NOT fit in with DH games, but many shady RT ones…. :)

Cheers,

 

Ken

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Seeten said:

I dunno if FFG or GW really knows that  a good portion of their fanbase hates all things Imperium based, both due to their presentation, and due to their tabletop army.

Constantly seeing Space Marines on the other side of the table, and listen to their self-righteous blah blah about their marines, etc, always left a bad taste in my mouth. I was happy my Eldar never lost to Space Marines, but it sure didn't endear the Imperium of Man to me.

Now, in the RPG, all I have an option to play is the hated Imperium of Man. Not exactly top notch. I'd rather play a Twilight Vampire than a Space Marine.

I dunno, the success of the video games and vast number of novels (most of which are Imperium centric) seems to indicate otherwise. It's not like anyone else is a good guy in the 40K universe, so everyone is likely to root for the home team (species?) first.

But yeah, I always found it annoying that like half the 40K players in the world have Space Marines as their army, but hell I started on them too.

Seeten said:

I'd rather play a Twilight Vampire than a Space Marine.

C'mon now, you don't want to do that. Twilight is such a joke that every TV show with vampires in it, at the time, was making jokes at its expense. Hell, they made a whole movie making fun of it.

There's no need to be that drastic, and you just really don't want to touch the kind of cancerous farce that Twilight is. Now step off the ledge and come back to us, before something horrible (like actually playing a Twilight Vampire lol) happens.

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 Hey Blood Pact:

Not sure on the quote feature on this forum. Hell if I can multiquote at all. The below is how I feel about the video games.

I bought Dawn of War, specifically, the expansions with Eldar and Necrons. I did not buy Dawn of War II, because the campaign wasn't Eldar centered. I did not buy Space Marine, for obvious reasons. I didn't buy any of the other video games that were Imperium or Space Marine centric, since I effin' hate Space Marines.

Cater to the armies I play and like, specifically, Eldar and Necrons, and I'll buy the products. Center it on stuff I don't like, like Marines, and you lose my business.

(I do have a Sisters of Battle army, and a soft spot for the Sisters, so there is still that, Imperium wise, but yeah. They never show up in video games either. They did give me something to like in Dark Heresy, at least.)

On the subject of Twilight vampires: 

Ok, you got me. I wouldn't ACTUALLY rather play a twilight vampire.

 

 

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I find the easiest way to Multi-quote is to open up multiple quote-reply windows, trim out the bits you don't want, and then copy the whole thing over to your actual reply.

Even that can screw up from time to time, too.

As for playable Necrons in an RPG, even with their new fluff, I just can't ever see them getting an RPG of their own. I'd put money on it. I'd put a lot of money on it.

But Eldar… well, the more and more I keep going over the idea, the more I keep being convinced that Harlequins would make for a great game (talked about it so much here and elsewhere, I won't retread that again). It's also making me want to read Atlas Infernal again.

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Necrons were great fun in Dawn of War, I liked them more than Eldar, and I started playing Eldar in Table Top in like 1988.

I wouldn't want Necrons as a playable faction in a pen and paper RPG, that's just silly.

I am not even sure I'd base a game around Eldar, like "Only War" but with Alaitoc or Biel-Tan, or whatever. I would definitely do an Eldar supplement, though, with power level balanced supplemental ways to run them in Rogue Trader and Black Crusade. Not to run them as part of Chaos, but just in the Black Crusade system. It might be cool to do likewise for Deathwatch, in a "Tyranids shot down all the Marine dropships and Eldar whatever ships, leaving the marine squads and aspect warriors all alone on Planet X" Then see how it goes. If half the group makes Eldar, half make Marines, do they work together to fight the greater threat? I think thats the sort of thing that would fascinate me.

I think Tau and Eldar have just big fanbases that are largely under served as far as the RPG goes. Most of us abhor marines, both because we constantly fight marines in TT, and have to listen to their rabid fans go on and on about how wonderful they are, and due to GW just beating them into the ground.

Further, is it odd that I consider the Imperium of Man the true villain in 40k?

Tau are clearly the heroes. Eldar are tragic/doomed, trying to atone for their past sins, and just hold on. Chaos is evil, but also represents freedom, and choice.

I'm grateful Black Crusade, exists, at least. I don't consider Chaos Space Marines to be Marines, so they are exempt from my disdain.

So, there is a stream of consciousness rant on what I think is the reasons we ought to have Eldar and Tau supplements, dedicated to making them playable, even if I don't think a full Eldar or Tau game is necessary.

Oh, and in before "Eldar are alien and unknowable and can't be RP'd."

The Imperium of Man is bizarre and alien dystopic future, completely unlike the current world. Its racist, xenophobic, sexist, nasty and rotten, at its core. It has values most people don't, and shouldn't have, and 7 foot marines with a chemical cocktail of drugs and multiple organs we dont have, not to mention brainwashing are as alien to me as Eldar could ever be. Psykers, Mutants, etc are all weirder to me than any Eldar. I don't even understand that argument. As far as I can tell, the Imperium is as alien and unknowable as any other race going.

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 I have hopes for further xenos games.

 

The poor Eldar deserve their own game at this point. The lack of their inclusion in Rogue Trader (where it was the most obvious and easy for fluff reason) is especially telling; I think that FFG has been saving them for us for quite some time. Think about it; every aspect of the Imperium has been represented. I suppose we could have an Adeptus Custodes or High Lords of Terra game, or a fixed Ascension, but I doubt it…

Tau could be fun at a Dark Heresy power level. The four basic castes and the various Septs form a solid Career Path and Homeworld set-up, and the various auxilleries (Kroot, Vespid, Demiurg, Tarellians, Hrud, humans…) allow for plenty of variety.

I know I'll use the Kabalite Warrior and some homebrew to run a Dark Eldar game about a Kabal rising in power, and I've seen all-Ork games before. The xenos are coming up into their own spotlight, methinks.

 

 

That said, playing a disgraced Necron Lord and his retinue (Cryptek, Praetorian, Lychguard, Deathmark) as they roam the stars attempting to regain their past glory would be hilariously fun. Put it at the Deathwatch power level and cause havoc.

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Plushy said:

The poor Eldar deserve their own game at this point. The lack of their inclusion in Rogue Trader (where it was the most obvious and easy for fluff reason) is especially telling; I think that FFG has been saving them for us for quite some time. Think about it; every aspect of the Imperium has been represented.

aplauso.gif

This truly sounds like the Inquisitions work!  Lies and deceit, false leads and traps doors!  And then…. The lights are dimmed, the curtains are drawn, a hush falls upon the stage…..  A flash of light!  A roaring of symphony!  And enters the Harlequin into the fray.  gran_risa.gif

 

I do believe FFG has been leading us by the rope on this one.  preocupado.gif

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Plushy said:

Think about it; every aspect of the Imperium has been represented.

 

Except Gangs of Necromunda, Adeptus Arbites, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Astra Telepathica,  heck, by now I would expect "Adeptus Custodes - Proudly Standing Around on Terra - The Game" before any Xenos game…..

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Mjoellnir said:

Plushy said:

Think about it; every aspect of the Imperium has been represented.

 

Except Gangs of Necromunda, Adeptus Arbites, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Astra Telepathica,  heck, by now I would expect "Adeptus Custodes - Proudly Standing Around on Terra - The Game" before any Xenos game…..

 

The Guard, Arbites, and Mechanicus were all expected to get their own Dark Heresy supplements, and they did (except for the Guard, who had their book become a new line.) Book of Judgment is there for the cops, and the Lathe Worlds is there for the good ole' cogheads. The Adeptus Astra telepathica have a lot of coverage through Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader - the upcoming Navis Primer should give them even more, along with the tragically under-fluffed Navigators…

 

I'd say Eldar are the most likely as our next big thing. Orks have almost complete representation (everything you can find in their codex can be made as a PC) and the Dark Eldar are coming up (fingers crossed for a lot of Alternate Ranks!) but I'm starting to doubt the Tau will get any love. The Kroot got a career already, and a Tau game would have to be at a Dark Heresy/Only War power level.

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