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Saldre

Disappointment at Only War.

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Adeptus-B said:

... absolutely does give me the right to complain about FFG withdrawing support from my favorite game in the line...


 You make the assumption that FFG is withdrawing support for DH. What concrete evidence do you base this on?


And everyone has the right to complain about whatever they want, but complaints become pointless when you're complaining about things you know very little about. 'Withdrawing support for DH' 'This is just a stealth DH 2.0' 'They're just churning out new books'. All of these things are so far off the mark it's not even funny, but none of you are willing to wait to see the book before decrying it as the end of the world. If you don't like it, that's fine, but show a little patience and maybe wait until you know a little more before jumping to a dramatic conclusion.

BYE

 

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Saldre said:

Really? This is what you get out of the entire conversation? Whiners? I didn't say it was the worst thing ever- no one said it was the worst thing ever. What were complaining about is the feeling that MAYBE, just MAYBE, someone somewhere is screwing us over here. [i did say the outrage was melodramatic but the disappointment is not]

Not to mention- you buy one product: First off, buying one product should be more then enough to get the support for said product. FFG should stand behind EVERY product they sell- there's no quota of money your required to spend before you get good service.  

But DH have supported said product. DH has had an amazing level of support. How many books have been released for the line already? Frankly I'd be neither shocked nor particularly disappointed if FFG did drop support for the game at this point. It has more than enough supplements.

As it happens buying one book does not entitle you to 'get the support for said product'. It entitles you to that product. Many games get nothing more than a corebook. Others are lucky if they get one supplement a year. So yes, it does sound like whining when people complain about OW. Oh noes! They decided to sell the book as a corebook for a new game that will net them more profit and allow them to create even more material instead of releasing it as a supplement for what is essentially a dead game! How dare they!!!!

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macd21 said:

Saldre said:

 

Really? This is what you get out of the entire conversation? Whiners? I didn't say it was the worst thing ever- no one said it was the worst thing ever. What were complaining about is the feeling that MAYBE, just MAYBE, someone somewhere is screwing us over here. [i did say the outrage was melodramatic but the disappointment is not]

Not to mention- you buy one product: First off, buying one product should be more then enough to get the support for said product. FFG should stand behind EVERY product they sell- there's no quota of money your required to spend before you get good service.  

 

 

But DH have supported said product. DH has had an amazing level of support. How many books have been released for the line already? Frankly I'd be neither shocked nor particularly disappointed if FFG did drop support for the game at this point. It has more than enough supplements.

As it happens buying one book does not entitle you to 'get the support for said product'. It entitles you to that product. Many games get nothing more than a corebook. Others are lucky if they get one supplement a year. So yes, it does sound like whining when people complain about OW. Oh noes! They decided to sell the book as a corebook for a new game that will net them more profit and allow them to create even more material instead of releasing it as a supplement for what is essentially a dead game! How dare they!!!!

When were talking about support, I was specifically referring to the Erratas. 

I do agree that we are rather lucky in DH with all of the supplements we have so far.

I do not agree that the game is dead. Its only as dead as FFG wants to make it. If anything, Only War as its own game only pushes DH closer towards the grave. A new "big book" supplement advertised on the front-page could easily "revive" the game. I would be disappointed if they dropped the game- if only because the game they chose to replace it with is, or will be, in my opinion, close enough that it COULD have been made as a supplement if the superfluous pages had been cut off. BUT I promised HMBC I won't talk about THAT anymore- so were waiting on more announcements to see if this isn't the case.

Back to the main topic- buying one book does not entitle us to supplements. I agree. Completely. 100%. It DOES however entitle us to a working book that can be used without modification. Gotta stand behind the product after all. 

As for the "creation of more material", we'll wait and see whats in the book. 

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Adeptus-B said:

Braddoc said:

 

Haven't you heard? Buying a single FFG product gives you the moral right and obligation to critisize every decision FFG does, duh!

/sarcasm.

 but yeah, I'm getting tired of the whiners as well; that's why we can't have nice things

 

 

Spending hundreds of dollars on WH40KRP products- during a recession!- starting with the Black Library edition of DH absolutely does give me the right to complain about FFG withdrawing support from my favorite game in the line. Tell me with a straight face you've never complained about your home sports team making a detrimental trade- is that whining, or being a concerned fan?

 

Well I have bought many books as well, including the Deathwatch CE, which was even more expensive! So in the utterly retarded logic of this thread, I guess that means my words carry even more weight than your's! Are you seriously jumping to wild and crazy conclusions about FFG withdrawing support from your favourite game line. Tell me you don't seriously believe that?

This is what I was talking about in my previous post. Ending support for DH? Because they decided Only War (rightly) would work better on its own instead of folded in to DH (war doesn't really lend well to the whole CoC-style investigator theme ya know). And of course, the **** title of the thread "Outrage and Dissapointment", gag me with a spoon, the melodrama loaded on to that.

It's no different than Kain, griping about how FFG are a bunch of scams and cheats, because they stuck Dark Eldar playable rules in an adventure book.

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We've got maybe 3 pages worth of threads saying how much they're looking forward to Only War, and maybe 20 pages worth of people acting as if it's the worst thing ever. Kinda telling really, even moreso when you realise that no one outside of a few people have actually seen the game.

I guess asking people to simply wait before coming to a conclusion is a bit much.

BYE

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Blood Pact said:

 

Adeptus-B said:

 

Braddoc said:

 

Haven't you heard? Buying a single FFG product gives you the moral right and obligation to critisize every decision FFG does, duh!

/sarcasm.

 but yeah, I'm getting tired of the whiners as well; that's why we can't have nice things

 

 

Spending hundreds of dollars on WH40KRP products- during a recession!- starting with the Black Library edition of DH absolutely does give me the right to complain about FFG withdrawing support from my favorite game in the line. Tell me with a straight face you've never complained about your home sports team making a detrimental trade- is that whining, or being a concerned fan?

 

 

 

Well I have bought many books as well, including the Deathwatch CE, which was even more expensive! So in the utterly retarded logic of this thread, I guess that means my words carry even more weight than your's! Are you seriously jumping to wild and crazy conclusions about FFG withdrawing support from your favourite game line. Tell me you don't seriously believe that?

This is what I was talking about in my previous post. Ending support for DH? Because they decided Only War (rightly) would work better on its own instead of folded in to DH (war doesn't really lend well to the whole CoC-style investigator theme ya know). And of course, the **** title of the thread "Outrage and Dissapointment", gag me with a spoon, the melodrama loaded on to that.

It's no different than Kain, griping about how FFG are a bunch of scams and cheats, because they stuck Dark Eldar playable rules in an adventure book.

 

 

No, in the insane logic of the thread that means are words are worth EXACTLY the same even if you've purchased the collector's edition. And we've pointed out that this Only War POINTS to that direction- it would be cool if some symbolic gesture reassured us, because until further notice, it DOES look like DH got the short end of the stick on this deal. 

Ok, I've said again and again that the title was a bit extreme. It grabs attention, but it makes it hard for anyone to take the thread seriously I guess. So I am going to change it now so we never hear this particular complaint again. If you'd read trough the thread, you'd see were all being rather level headed instead of screaming bloody murder. Disappointment and Worry are the two general feelings that are echoed here. 

I run DH as a CoC style investigation- but that's not all do. There are more aspects to the game then that- from purely horror, to purely combat, the themes explored in the game are vast enough you should not feel limited to running what-ever you want with it, as long as generally speaking you stick to the setting: bottom of the food-chain guys forced to fight agaisnt heretics, xenos and daemons to protect mankind from their corrupting and destructive influence. Orcs do not lend themselves well to a CoC style investigation- but we have stats for them just the same in DH. That Only War is no longer DH isn't going to stop me from taking my players to a War World or having them run around a battle-field or leading massive armies or platoons [i'd love to run something along the lines of the Invasion of Quixos' base, or the invasion of the Saruthi planet from Einsenhorn]- It just means more work. Less official lore. A less expansive game then if I were to play a Ministrotum game or a Radicals game, or even an adept and arbitrator game. 

I won't comment on playable Dark Eldar :P 

Edit- I can't change the title anymore. I am going to have live with the guilt and shame of a moment of passion.

Edit II- Changed it!

Double Edit- HMBC, no one is saying "Only War" is the worst thing ever. If we were, no one would have pre-ordered t. Were saying "Only War" as its own line is disappointing. I'd love to wait before coming to a conclusion, and I am still open to change- truly, it will be very easy to change my mind once we see the actual book or examples from the book. 

This is more of a discussion on the decision to make it a core-rulebook- based on what you've said yourself, FFG should pay attention, bring out previous of the book as fast as to reduce these feelings in the population.

With the book more so the simply announced, but with its own page now, its safe to say that more previews aren't too much to ask for. Any sign would be good at this point [unless they decided to preview the rehashed sections of the rules :P].  

 

 

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 I think I will go out on a limb here and graduate the term "Whiner" to "Temper tantrum"! It seems to me that most of the complaint's about OW boil down to "It's not DH!(2.0)" or "It's not cheap enough!" or some such variant. Come on folks! It's starting to sound like my grandchildern! We have two of the designers on these forums taking their valuable time trying to assuage your concerns and yet all I see is these same circular arguments that boil down to; "I'ts not what YOU PERSONALLY expected and therefore somehow ffg should feel guilty for that!" Here's a newsflash: They shouldn't!!! They are attempting produce a product that is based in the very heart of what 40k is all about! It is questionable that they could do everything you might want in an "Only war" setting into a single Corebook! (In fact they probably can't! That's why there will likely be supplements gui%C3%B1o.gif) I have seen (and in fact wrote myself!)  many times on the forums: where is only war thread? or, Is it time for DH 2.0? Guess what: WE GOT WHAT WE ASKED FOR!!! Why don't those of you that insist on flaming this project incessantly go sit the corner and be quiet until you can speak reasonably! (That  is at least what I would tell my grandchildren!). I am tired of seeing people flame the company without even seeing if the product is what they fear it is or worth their precious money! I for one am looking forward to it. If I feel it's a waste of time or a rip-off I will deal with that. (I never did by 4th ed D&D for EXACTLY that reason and I have almost EVERY product fro ALL the previous editions! Surprise surprise! Wizards fell behind Paizo because they made active inroads to the loyal D&D fanbase)!  I'm sure FFG is well aware of this and is eager to make a solid product that will appeal to their base as well as draw in new players. (That is basic marketing after all!cool.gif)

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I'm not disappointed in the least and I applaud for making it a stand alone game.  In addition I am looking forward to Only War it will be an awesome addition to the universe - I haven't been disappointed in a core book yet. 

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H.B.M.C. said:

Well clearly you'd use the altered Bolter stats with adversaries as well. That's just common sense.

BYE

Ofcourse. But the point is: if the Errata need new Errata, maybe there's something not going right in the process of making rules and stats? I'm a big FFG fan so don't get me wrong, but crunch-wise, rules-wise, the Warhammer 40,000 books have gotten way too sloppy.

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Braddoc said:

 

 And Adeptus: I never went on the company/sport team/whatever's forums and whined at them directly, no.

 

 

Why not? One of the reasons that some businesses host Forums like this is to collect Market Research. How does FFG benefit if I don't give honest opinions?

If I am the target audience for Only War (and as the owner of- currently- of 21 WH40KRP books, I clearly am), and I don't plan on buying it because A) it represents withdrawl of support from DH, which I don't want to encourage, B) I suspect that about a third of the book will just be Copy/Pasted rules from Black Crusade, which I already own, and C) I think FFG is getting close to flooding the market with separate game lines, and every flooded market must eventually crash- something that I don't wish to contribute to- and if enough people agree with me, then OW will underperform financially. But if FFG checks the Forums to find out why, so they can adjust their business strategy and maintain profits, but finds no critical comments, how do they- or anyone else- benefit?

Let me be clear: I'm not trying to insult anyone or hurt someone's feelings. If that's the way it has come across, then I sincerely appologize. All of my "whining" is intended to be constructive criticism; I'm trying to do my small part in increasing the longevity of this game line by giving honest feedback.

That applies to H.B.M.C.'s comment that FFG isn't withdrawing support of DH. All I can comment on is the information I have access to: a highly anticipated supplenment to DH has been re-purposed into a seperate game, leaving no announced upcoming supplements to DH. FFG can very easily correct this impression and allay customer fears by announcing some works-in-progress for DH. Again, I'm trying to contribute to FFgs Market Research by explaining how it looks to me, one of the target audience, so that they can respond accordingly.

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All know is that we'll use the stuff from Only War in our Dark Heresy game.  Just because it doesn't say "Dark Heresy" on the cover doesn't mean we can't use it for Dark Heresy.  Over the years we have adapted our DH game time and time again.  We used RT rules, then DW, and now BC.  We use the stuff in all of the supplements from all the lines in our DH game just fine.  I have no problem with Only War being it's own thing, since it won't exclude it from our DH games at all and the rules updates might be freakin sweet.

I'm way more excited about this than Black Crusade.  I can't get my hands on Only War soon enough.

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 I don't care one way or another if its a supplement or it's own game, I just want it and the sooner the better. I agree completely that people are bitching about something they've never even seen yet and though there are good points about erratta and what not... still, lets give this book a chance before it gets torn apart! As someone already said in this thread, "this is why we can't have nice things".

Also, I seriously doubt that in a few months an FFG agent is going to show up at your door, put a gun to your head and FORCE YOU TO BUY THIS BOOK! If you don't want it don't get it. Problem solved!!!

I'll be buying it though. gran_risa.gif

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AluminiumWolf said:

Dok Martin said:

What I'm hoping for is that OW will be a bit more back-to-the-roots theme-wise. Don't get me wrong, RT, DW and BC are great games. But they're also kind of... glossy. I miss the... um, British approach which made Dark Heresy such a nasty, down-n-dirty kinda game.

 

British does not have to mean slightly naff. We do Blackadder and The Office, but we also have James Bond, Jack Aubery, Lucius Vorenus and Titus Pullo, Judge Dredd, Nemesis the Warlock, Slaine, Commando War Stories in Pictures, Mark Cavendish, and bloody Space Marines.

I don't think that making reference to it being British meant "naff". Dark Heresy isn't "naff". What it is is grim, pessimistic, bleak, and most importantly, massively unheroic. Now, there are plenty of British things are nothing like that, but it is very different to the big American sci-fi franchises (Star Trek, which I also love, which is massively optomistic. Star Wars is heroic, and really at its core optomistic. Stargate is heroic). The only thing I know of (there may be things I don't know of) that comes close is the re-imagined Battlestar, and even that had a clear side you were meant to be rooting for, and even if they were flawed they were generally good. I just struggle to imagine 40k orginating in the US. Heck, I feel it is a product of its time and place (Britain in the early to mid 1980s), and I would struggle to see it being created even in the UK now.

James Bond: Well, I would say the film Bond is as much American as he is British. Yes they have used British actors and it was filmed in Britain, but it was aimed as an American audience as well as a British one. The original Bond of the books is not quite as classy, and nastier than most portrayals of him (the exceptions I would say are his original appearance in Dr No and the two most recent films).

Lucius Verenus and Titus Pullo? Well, I am guessing you mean the characters from the largely American TV series "Rome"? Yes they (and most of the characters) are played by British actors, but that was probably to give some "weight" to them, as having them with American voices would just not sound right (even though British voices are just as incorrect). Same reason the Imperial officers in Star Wars are largely British... it just doesn't sound right otherwise. The series was conceived and written in the States. Most of the money came from the States (85% of it).

Judge Dredd: Actually a good example for this as it is one of the obvious inspirations for 40k. Yes, he is 'ard, but he generally isn't heroic. He is unpleasant, inflexible (most of the time), and really a sort of anti-hero. And the setting of the stories, much like 40k, is a depressing dystopia if looked at rationally, but is usually looked at in a humorous fashion. The law is inflexible, harsh, but without the authoritarian control over it society would fall apart (much like 40k). Nemesis the Warlock is... in some ways similar, but even more weird and grotesque.

Commando... well, while great fun I would actually level the criticism of being "naff" at them the most. They are very past their time in their approach (which is why they are actually quite hard to find: they just are not popular enough to stock in most newsagents, and I suspect most purchasers are adults who read them when they were younger). The artwork is very old fashioned, the characters are very old fashioned, and the stories can sometimes get a bit repetitive ("Oh, yet another rivalry between two men of the same unit which gets resolved when they face some challenge together and are now the best of mates").

Space Marines: They are decidedly gritty and unheroic. Yes they are fantastic soldiers, equipped with the best equipment there is, but they are 1) dehumanised, distant from the very things they are tasked with "protecting" 2) unremittingly unpleasant in so many ways. If it had been an American creation I suspect they would have been much more heroic, and labelled as the "defenders of mankind" or something, rather than the "Angels of Death" 3) they serve the most unpleasant regime known to the history of man, that will allow probably billions to die due to bureaucratic delay, or actively exterminate billions "for the greater good." And the worst thing about this: it is totally necessary. If the Imperium collapsed, you wouldn't see the flourishing of mankind into peaceful prosperity (ala George Lucas's vision for Star Wars after the end of Return of the Jedi). Instead humanity would be subject to a slow, painful death as a species as they tore themselves apart in internecine wars, were exterminated by alien forces, faced the predation of supernatural forces and felt the repercussions of unchecked, uncontrollable psychic potential. Again, if it had been an American creation I would suspect either the Imperium (or its equivalent) would have a force for "good", or the Marines would be rebels against the corrupt evil regime, or at the very least, they would be humans who question the morality of their orders. Instead they are inhuman enforcers of the bloody status quo.

 

"But DH have supported said product. DH has had an amazing level of support. How many books have been released for the line already? Frankly I'd be neither shocked nor particularly disappointed if FFG did drop support for the game at this point. It has more than enough supplements."

- The project they looked like they were on was essentially books to support the themes of the various careers: Religious ones for the Cleric and Sister of Battle, Law one for Arbitrators and (to a lesser extent) Scum and a more martial one for the Guardsman. Obviously there were options for most of the careers, but it did look like they might have got something for most of them (A Mechanicus one seems an obvious choice as one of the remaining ones, as would a Psychic one), though I would admit I would struggle to think what you would do for an adept (a whole book on the Adeptus Administratum, with special rules for dealing with the bureaucracy? Doesn't sound terribly exciting). The Assassin could probably have been folded into another one of the books (the martial Only War would have made the most sense). Only War turning into this full game (rather than a suggested Disciples of the Dark Gods length supplement, which if they had a lot to do they could have done) means this pattern is broken. Even if they continue, where are the extra wealth of options for the Guardsmen, leaving Guardsmen characters feeling like they have fewer options? Or will they publish another book that does the same thing for the Guardsmen (which will feel very opportunistic and money grabbing)? Or are they so fed up with the original rules they just aren't going to produce anything new for it?

None of those are terribly pleasing options. Yes, there are lots of supplements (including some excellent ones, DoDG being the best), and yes, I couldn't see that many more that they could do without really flogging the dead horse, but there are still some obvious ones out there to be done. With this one now longer not in the works what does that suggest for those ones? I had been reassuring those who said "Is Dark Heresy dead?" in part by using "Only War" as evidence ("Look, we're expecting this soon, and there are other obvious similar ones still to do"). Now this has gone I am starting to wonder myself.

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Very well said, sir! Not a word I disagree with, only I am not so pessimistic about Dark Heresy support. Sure, the designers' attentions will have to be divided over many product lines now ... but as long as we keep buying new DH books they will continue to write them!

I totally vouch for more Disciples of the Dark Gods books. That one was the best ever.

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Emperor, I so regret I ever said "British"! Guess that expression was largely influenced by the whole guitar sound discussion, me being a guitarist and all. American is generally considered brutal but polished, while British stands for raw and gritty. Sorry if that came out wrong. ;)

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I would like to say to anyone using the old "dont like it, dont buy it" argument that i think most of the complainers really want this book. The problem is that now they have to pay more for it and they also get some things they allready have.

With Only Way being its own game you lose out on a lot of DH content for guardsmen as i believe careers (or archetypes) in Only War will not follow the same progression path as in DH. Neither will they be Skill/Talent Packages you can easily use for Guardsmen (and perhaps other careers).

Most likely (as i find it hard to justify using an old setting for a new game) you wont see any development for Regiments of the Calixis sector which is something i am very interested in.

So to be honest, the problem is that i very much want this book but i am being forced to buy a new Core rulebook to get what i want.

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I have a sneaking suspicion that when they were developing Only War as a supplement, they quickly realized it would be so very narrowly focused that most people would find the vast majority of the book non-applicable to their DH games. Either specialties would be too subtle to notice or would start treading on other careers quickly.

Look at it from the developers standpoint. How much depth and specialization is really needed for a guardsman in DH? I love the guardsman, I played a guardsman, that doesn't preclude the fact that I knew going in my role was gun-bunny/meat shield.

How applicable is a Sergeant specialization in a group where there is likely only one guardsman?

If you want to play a sniper, where do you draw the line between specialized guardsman and just building a shooty assassin and calling it a guard sniper?

A commissar, outside of a guard regiment, is a guy with a pistol, a hat, and no authority. 

The conclusion they came to was that a Guard focused book would be better as a much more in depth core book than a simple supplement. I think that was probably the right call.

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The Laughing God said:

I totally vouch for more Disciples of the Dark Gods books. That one was the best ever.

I totally agree- DotDG is the single best sourcebook in the whole WH40KRP line! Even the stuff I don't plan on using in my campaign is still a lot of fun to read.

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A lot of people have said that we, the disappointed faction, are constantly repeating the same arguments over and over. However, I can't help but notice that several of our points and arguments have been addressed eloquently- and defended- on several occasions, but no one seems to be paying attention.

The "Don't like it don't buy it argument" being the main one that's thrown out in opposition- but we've already dealt with that as an invalid argument.

On the other hand, the "Wait and see" is only slightly- if not for the fact that I don't need to wait and see to know that the new classes proposed will be of no use to me in my DH game. That the character creation guidelines either. That the "Playing the games" section is going to have the rules about falling damage and drowning, likely Vacuum too. That the "psychic powers", skills and talents sections of the book are not going to be of use either [unless a direct, play-tested and verified conversation system was proposed in the psychic powers system]. That the combat section is still going to have the same combat moves we've seen across all four lines. That the guard are likely going to have a "Cohesion" type special ability that'll only make sense in the guards unit. These are the things that we can be 100% sure of. I don't need to wait to know this. This is what it means when they decided to make as a corerule book. These things MUST be included- taking up a LARGE chunk of the book to teach us how to play a game we already know.   

Now for the part where I start speculating- the part where your right, I should wait and see what happens to be in there because I simply don't know: the armory- either were going to get weapons we already have [basic las/sp guns, pistols, krak missiles, you know the whole shabang instead of any original and advanced stuff] OR were going to get "new basic weapons" which fit with the power-level of the game and won't be able to get used in the other lines. At the very end of the book, were VERY likely going to get Orcs and Tyranids, maybe even the Forces of Chaos. These orcs and tyranids are either going to be the same- or altered as to match the other Orcs and Tyranids and daemons we have across the other line of books. These are the only two aspects of the game where "wait and see" can make a difference. 

And for the stuff that DOES make a difference but that I am still speculating at- this is the part of the book that's going to REALLY make it or break it. Either its going to take place in the Calaxis sector, Woo more power for us- Support for Dark Heresy or... its going to take place in an entirely new sector. Which leaves us with squat. Vehicles! Those are great.

The only thing that I am virtually guaranteed to be able to use (and this is assuming that the power-level will be suitable, but who cares because its a Tank!) are the vehicles. Whoever said you can't use a Baneblade in an Inquisitor's mission... well, I don't agree with him!

In any case, this is why I feel justified in having such a strong opinion so quickly after the announcement of the game. Making it a core-rule book simply bestows obligations onto its content. Obligations that we, who have already seen four other books in the same line. It doesn't matter how much time we wait, or how much they change the core-rules, (which won't be much just some constant fine-tuning). 

"It Is Uncertain Who" has so far brought up the most interesting and likely unique argument to justify the new Core-book. But thats a different approach then what I would have hoped FFG would take- in that, if they felt the actual mechanical aspects of Only War were insufficient, then concentrating on the Lore and Fluff (like DotDG- a book with several War-worlds, the conflits within, the important NPCS, their resources) Would have been a lot more interesting then an Entire new Rule-book which that, as he implied, ends up being not very necessary- Playing a "Sniper" Vs playing a DH guardsmen or assassin that's built as a Sniper. Heck, their higher ranks are even called "Sniper". 

Ps- DotDG ROCKS! 

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Saldre said:

On the other hand, the "Wait and see" is only slightly- if not for the fact that I don't need to wait and see to know that the new classes proposed will be of no use to me in my DH game.

 


Why would they be? It's not part of Dark Heresy, so why would you judge OW on how useful it'd be for DH? Do you decry Deathwatch because it's classes are no use for DH? What about BC? To put it another - criticising a tennis ball for not being a soccer ball is plain stupid.

And I don't see how 'don't like it/don't buy it' is an invalid argument. It's a new game, and if you have no interest in that agme you don't buy that game? FFG makes loads of products I have zero interest in... so I don't buy them. Where's the hang up here?

BYE

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Saldre said:

That the "Playing the games" section is going to have the rules about falling damage and drowning, likely Vacuum too. That the "psychic powers", skills and talents sections of the book are not going to be of use either [unless a direct, play-tested and verified conversation system was proposed in the psychic powers system]. That the combat section is still going to have the same combat moves we've seen across all four lines. That the guard are likely going to have a "Cohesion" type special ability that'll only make sense in the guards unit. These are the things that we can be 100% sure of. I don't need to wait to know this. This is what it means when they decided to make as a corerule book. These things MUST be included- taking up a LARGE chunk of the book to teach us how to play a game we already know.

 

And? But? So? Therefore?

It's a new game, and a new rulebook. Of course it's going to have the full rules in a new rulebook for a new game. They're hardly going to release a new book and say "Buy these other books to get the full rules". Every book in the 40K RPG product line is written from the perspective that the person reading the book only owns that book and the core rulebook. In the case of core rolebooks, they only assume that book and that alone.

So yeah, the combat rules are in 4 other books, but the OW Core Rulebook cannot say "If you want to know how combat works, buy the rulebook for a different game!" (and if it did, we'd just have people complaining about FFG 'scamming' people out of money by 'forcing' them to buy two books).

BYE

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Just thought I would throw in my few cents on this issue. If only so I can hopefully try to alleviate some of the tension that may be building. I'll try and address Saldre's concerns with this post as that is the big one I can see and is a good starting point for me to get involved. Please don't feel I'm trying to go you here buddy. I just want to make sure everyone is on the same page, and hopefully avoid some further back and forth that could get out of hand. ;)

Going over the primary concerns raised I'll try and bring some of my past customer service experience to the table to point out where perceptions might have been construed or what you can constructively do to make your voice heard if you still feel that way by the end of this.

The idea of "If you don't like it don't buy it" is unfortunately a valid one. The reason being that in a capitalist market the best way to make your voice heard is voting with your wallet. By not buying the product you deny the business funds, and if enough people do that they cannot stay in business under their current model. This has always been the case, and more than likely always will be. For example I didn't agree with certain GW actions and policy changes in the last few years so I stopped buying from them entirely, and where I felt there was something I simply had to have I made sure to seek it out from a 3rd party supplier for the cheapest possible price. So even if I was still supporting their business, it was as minimal as possible. Though I can count the number of 40K things I bought in the last 2 years on one hand. I of course cannot advocate piracy on this site, but I will point out that it has made businesses more accountable for the quality and price of their product than ever before. If you do go down that road for any reason I do urge you to buy it down the line if you did like it, as that is only fair to those who put in the effort to make it.

Moving onto the cross over with previous books, this is both a valid and invalid critisicm in many respects. No one like needless repetition, but the fact of the matter is that the book is now a Core book so it will need to have all the basic rules, basic weapons (that fit the setting), and such that may have already been covered in other books. This is for the benefit of new players who only buy OW. Was OW still a DH Supp then I can completely see the frustration in a significant amount of cross over, but somewhere down the line the decision was made to make it its own game, so the basics have to be covered. Given printing costs I am sure that if FFG thought that these basics weren't needed for the new players then they would want to cut them out to reduce the printing costs. However they have to approach it for the lowest common denominator, that being someone who walks into a FLGS with no prior knowledge or ownership of the other 40K RPGs. Such is the nature of a Core book.

This segways nicely into my thoughts on why the change from a Supp to a Core. During development I would assume that someone probably had the epiphany that much of the content wasn't really gelling with the DH theme of investigation and what not. Should there be some more stuff for the Guard in DH? Sure, I completely agree, but having OW doesn't invalidate that happening with a Supp down the line. One geared towards some Guard that serve with the Inquisition and more geared towards the DH theme. Without knowing the actual content of OW I think it is safe to assume that much of what was thought of and designed became much more combat orientated and as such moved past DH. Think about this for a moment, what if there is something like a tank crew or some sort of vehicle specialist? You can't really have Arbite Bob, Preacher Smith, and Tank Driver Dave with his Leman Russ (or something) sneaking around trying to root out cultists. Unless you took Dave's tank away, in which case what would be the point of the class? That is just a hypothetical scenario off the top of my head. And if some awesome and not previously covered Guard roles weren't covered in a Supp then I am sure we would have complaints about that as well, and be back to square one, and potentially have 2 Supps you would 'need' to get to have the whole Guard class for DH.

I think you do have a valid concern about the whole Vehicle rules thing if there is difference or new stuff or whatever. But once you start throwing tanks into the equation you once again move away from the theme of DH and into new territory. Can an Inquisitor get his hands on a Baneblade? Yes, no argument there, and I would wonder why he is stopping at just one. But does he need to when he has tasked his Acolytes with rooting out a cult for him so he can access the situation and act accordingly? No, not really. So I think that is the crux of why we are getting a new Core. DH for low level humans that investigate, RT for mid-high level humans that do whatever they please be it combat or talking or serious business negotiations that involve both, DW for playing Astartes, BC for being the evil flip side of every system, and now OW for low (to mid and high maybe?) level humans for combat.

Now what can YOU, the fan and consumer, do to get your voice heard? Well you are already doing that in some respects just by bringing this stuff up. I do feel it a pity that there is no official feedback section or customer service rep you can contact, but that is FFG's prerogative until they see the benefit otherwise. How you can drive your stance and feelings home, if you are sincere in your beliefs, is by voting with your wallet and not buying the book. And continuing to raise your concerns in these forums. You can also let them know about the kinds of products YOU want to see and potentially show them demand for other products that they may have not considered before. 

However make sure to do so in a civil and well thought out quantitative manner so others, and potentially FFG themselves, don't casually disregard it offhand as whining or venting. You aren't doing this now and I am not making an accusation here. That is just some helpful advice from someone who used to have to deal with customer perceptions for a living. People will always be more inclined to listen to what you have to say when it is thought out and articulated well, and proffered in a calm and friendly manner.

So I hope that this has helped in some manner. And I am always happy to discuss these sorts of things as it helps me, and potentially others, understand people better. :)

Atma01

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H.B.M.C. said:

Saldre said:

That the "Playing the games" section is going to have the rules about falling damage and drowning, likely Vacuum too. That the "psychic powers", skills and talents sections of the book are not going to be of use either [unless a direct, play-tested and verified conversation system was proposed in the psychic powers system]. That the combat section is still going to have the same combat moves we've seen across all four lines. That the guard are likely going to have a "Cohesion" type special ability that'll only make sense in the guards unit. These are the things that we can be 100% sure of. I don't need to wait to know this. This is what it means when they decided to make as a corerule book. These things MUST be included- taking up a LARGE chunk of the book to teach us how to play a game we already know.


 

 

And? But? So? Therefore?

It's a new game, and a new rulebook. Of course it's going to have the full rules in a new rulebook for a new game. They're hardly going to release a new book and say "Buy these other books to get the full rules". Every book in the 40K RPG product line is written from the perspective that the person reading the book only owns that book and the core rulebook. In the case of core rolebooks, they only assume that book and that alone.

So yeah, the combat rules are in 4 other books, but the OW Core Rulebook cannot say "If you want to know how combat works, buy the rulebook for a different game!" (and if it did, we'd just have people complaining about FFG 'scamming' people out of money by 'forcing' them to buy two books).

BYE

Yes, that is obvious, but the gripe is that it was initially presented as a supplement for Dark Heresy. Now, it claims to be fully compatible (a claim I have previously disagreed with but that has been done to death so I won't get into that any further), so people might say "Oh, but you can still use the material as a source for your Dark Heresy game! You will have Imperial Guard Vehicles (presuming they are included), guides on how to do a military campaign etc. Why not use those?" As long as it isn't too different there should be ok ways to bodge that together and use much of the material. However, from the perspective of "I am going to use this as a useful guide for doing martial adventures/campaigns in Dark Heresy, or as a source on the Imperial Guard", it is going to include a lot of useless material (character creation) and repeated material (the core rules). This will limit how much of the book is useful for its original advertised purpose (as a DH supplement) and increase the price (as, for that particular purpose, it will be a much bigger book than necessary).

Also, much of the material we might have expected to see in the new book, specific to the Calixis Sector, such as the specific Regiments, specific wars going on in the sector etc, might not feature at all now, as the presumption is that, like the other games, it will have its own new sector and setting. Now, one thing I had thought they might have done, rather than having it's own setting, is create a book for the Imperial Guard for all 3 of the current Imperial settings. If that was the case, then much of the expected material would still feature. However, I suspect that is going to be a vain hope (aside from maybe a regiment or two, as presumably the sector will have some link to the previous ones, as they have all done so far.

Now, I am guessing much of the thinking was not necessarily "Oh we can get a new game line to flog to people" or "The themes don't really fit Dark Heresy," but that after compiling a book that was 1) meant to be a book for military characters, probably allowing more variety in military careers and 2) allow the running of a military themed campaign, they realised that this idea might be possible, but that of all the campaign types (Ascension aside) it would be the only one that would require (rather than just be advised) more than one book to run: this supplement, and the Dark heresy core rulebook. In that case, as an item that could be more directly marketed at those that haven't yet bought into 40k RPG (with themes that might be expected to be more generally popular than the original Dark Heresy), it make perfect sense to make it a new full game. However, I don't think this means that DH players, who were expecting a DH supplement, don't have any right to be disappointed, especially as I just feel now that DH is going to get left behind as FFG deals mainly with its new toys, which it had greater control over. Now, obviously the newer lines need greater support to catch up, but currently DH has nothing publicly announced for it, and frankly there have been various things which suggest to me that FFG doesn't really get DH.

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I'd like to take a crack at this one as well if I may.

You raise a very valid point that by announcing it as a DH Supp in the past they set an expectation to the fanbase. That being a DH Supp was on the way for Guard. Changing this without notice prior to this announcement, or giving some clear cut justifications for doing so would sour some people, and in some ways is poor customer service. This of course is up to their marketing and CS (of such a thing exists) teams to address with the announcements and communication.

One thing I believe I noticed with the way they are rolling out the announcements and releases is that I personally haven't seen one where they gave a range of names for the future line up like they did back when OW was originally announced as a DH Supp. So hopefully they may have realised the issue of announcing something before it is finished in the event that things change, and now play their cards closer to their heart. This would certainly be a positive change as we would not have this issue now had the announcement been saved until it was finished. Though it could simply be I missed some stuff, or a coincidence. Happy to discuss further or course if I did miss stuff.

Does that change where we are at now? No, of course not. But all one can do is voice that frustration so that they hopefully take it on board for the future and we don't end up here again. Changing it again now would just end up with the people on the other side making the same argument you are now. Its a bad middle ground but it is where we are for better or for worse.

As for the perceived neglect of the DH line it somewhat ties into what I mentioned above about them possibly playing their cards close to the heart. For all we know they did adopt that policy and things are in the pipeline that they simply haven't announced yet. We don't know the extent of their resources either so we can't really make a call on the distribution of their focus based on the product releases alone. Some products may need to be tested more than others, or something might simply work from the word go with a quick rollout. We simply don't know.

I can completely understand where you are coming from with that perception, and I actually agree with it to an extent. But ultimately it is only one that can be addressed by communication with the fanbase, and that is up for FFG to decide upon. I'd love to see more communication or interaction, but we don't even know if that is possible unfortunately. But it certainly seems like something that should be thought about by them.

At this stage it sadly is a matter of time will tell. I don't want them to stop releasing stuff for DH, or any of their other lines, but arguably they will hit a wall at some point where pretty much everything has been done, or at least fleshed out to the point of further stuff being redundant. I doubt we reached that point with DH yet, but it will happen. Simply a matter of time, but hopefully far far off in the future.

And hey if the DH support suddenly does stop, I'd be up in arms too. I love it if only for all the awesome details it is giving for the universe. And I don't want to run out of those anytime soon. I'm having too much fun with the stuff as it is.

Did that help at all? sad.gif

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H.B.M.C. said:

Saldre said:

That the "Playing the games" section is going to have the rules about falling damage and drowning, likely Vacuum too. That the "psychic powers", skills and talents sections of the book are not going to be of use either [unless a direct, play-tested and verified conversation system was proposed in the psychic powers system]. That the combat section is still going to have the same combat moves we've seen across all four lines. That the guard are likely going to have a "Cohesion" type special ability that'll only make sense in the guards unit. These are the things that we can be 100% sure of. I don't need to wait to know this. This is what it means when they decided to make as a corerule book. These things MUST be included- taking up a LARGE chunk of the book to teach us how to play a game we already know.


 

 

And? But? So? Therefore?

It's a new game, and a new rulebook. Of course it's going to have the full rules in a new rulebook for a new game. They're hardly going to release a new book and say "Buy these other books to get the full rules". Every book in the 40K RPG product line is written from the perspective that the person reading the book only owns that book and the core rulebook. In the case of core rolebooks, they only assume that book and that alone.

So yeah, the combat rules are in 4 other books, but the OW Core Rulebook cannot say "If you want to know how combat works, buy the rulebook for a different game!" (and if it did, we'd just have people complaining about FFG 'scamming' people out of money by 'forcing' them to buy two books).

BYE

 

I couldnt agree more.Well said.

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