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beowulf101

One too Many

154 posts in this topic

 Personally, I would much rather see full games giving incremental updates to the system instead of a reboot.  One book to run them all is a lot less books then one book for each possible theme/topic/culture in 40k.  Remember GW killed Dark Heresy once, the day after it sold out in two hours.  FFG doesn't need RPG numbers to impress, they need numbers that don't look inconsequential to the miniatures execs as well as justifying a possible RPG-to-wargames tie-in.  A full-blown IG game with all the vehicles in it, is just made for selling ridiculously expensive plastic vehicles to Roleplayers (who's gonna run a IG campaign without at least one Chimera?).

Now if they can just keep Ron Edwards...err I mean Jay Little's narrativist hands off the goddamn thing, they'd have a winner.  They should include in the Collector's Edition an Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

 

One game was enough. In my honest opinion, each extra game has felt like it should have been a supplement for the first game. And I am tired of te lie of "Fully compatible" as they are not even nearly compatible. OK, so Im a bit harsh there, they are slightly compatible and in need of much GM rules-making on the fly.

 

 

Come on now. Are you seriously telling me that there would have been a (reasonable) way of releasing RT as a DH supplement? Or Deathwatch?
Granted BC could probably have been a (bloated) supplement for DW but even that is quite a strech in my opinion.

Fully compatible is indeed not true but "slightly compatible" is an understatement in my opinion. Sure you have to adjust some psychic powers and DH monster will be way to weak for BC players but still, all of the fluff and large parts of the crunch can be used without any adjustment. The parts that do need adjusting are usually psychic powers (since those got the most changes), weapon attributes (since some of them are different like plasma weapons in DH and RT) and carrer paths if (and only if) you are going into BC. Everything else that I can think of can be used without any real problems.

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

As the contract grows closer to expiring (assuming its a 5 year deal) you will see more and more cash grabs by FFG.

 

 

This part of the post is actually what grabbed my attention. Ignoring what you assumed to know about the content of OW aside is there anything to suport this?

I don't know a lot about how Games Workshop and how they interact with FFG but it seems to me like FFG is doing a fantastic job with the 40k RPGs (that is from a Players and GMs standpoint, no from a financial one) and I'd like them to continue making 40k content so some information on the inner workings on any contracts between GW and FFG would be nice.

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I agree with the OP, to a point.  I think this new game has potential, however, it seems like it would have been a better idea to expand upon the existing games first.  Also, it seems like if they were going to do a different line, at least do a full line to satify the players of xenos races.

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Himmelweiss said:

I agree with the OP...

This is definetly one too many!

 

Also, in general, FFG is releasing too many RPGs and Card Games and Dust Tactics stuff lately.
The entire Site becomes more and more boring for a "Boardgamers" heart....

 

Most of the news is LCG stuff.  Warhammer Fantasy gets almost no love.

Overall though, the last year on this website, the news and updates have been fewer and less interesting.  A shame since it was the frequent updates and information that brought me here and opened my wallet to buying games. 

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While I wish a great deal FFG kept things to the "original" trilogy... honestly my initial thoughts regarding this announcement are not so much disgust or excitement but more "wait... what?"  I mean I think I can understand the logic behind it, the Guard is a large organization with some radical shifts in scale players can be dumped into.  Other then that, I think I'm just going to wait and see.  It might be good or it might just prompt me to pass and wonder when the Admech/Tau supplement is coming out.

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H.B.M.C. said:

So uhh... how many games is too many exactly? And how do we come to that conclusion? What’s it based on? Why is 4 just right but 5 too many? Why not 6? Or 7? How about 10? Lot of very arbitrary declarations about what’s ‘too much’ going on here. Rather amusing actually.

I don't think it's so arbitrary--many of the naysayers said exactly why they aren't interested, the combined cost of all the rulebooks mounting up being one of the reasons. And let's think about this. If you're already playing one or more 40K RPG's, you might not simply have the room for another game. That's what people are complaining about, here. I won't begrudge anyone with an interest in this particular theme, but I think I'm squarely in the "no more room" camp.

As far as people not buying it, well, that could be exactly what happens here. Frankly I'm afraid FFG might be competing with itself a little bit too much.

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A sudden thought of mine, is that if the mechanics here are a success, we'll see the employed in a Dark Heresy 2e, possibly even with the game's starting level bumped up to par with BC and RT. And presumably Only War, since the news page mentions playing Storm Troopers, and those don't seem on par with Rank 1 DH characters to me.

Edit

It could also be an interesting way for them to add the Eldar in. If this isn't taking place in one of the current 4 locales, then that allows the option for wider inclusion of races that have seen less attention. Orks would be a good match for the Guard, possible (and of course Chaos). Eldar often times ally with human forces against a more dangerous enemy.

Also, I always liked DH, and thought it was the right way to start, because of just how cool being an Inquisitorial acolyte was shown to be, through the Eisenhorn novels and the like, as well as the more traditional roleplaying that is involved, as opposed to how Only War might be (though OW will in all likelihood do a better job of conveying the tumultuous nature of the 41st Millennium than DH).

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Fabian Grax said:

 

I don't think it's so arbitrary--many of the naysayers said exactly why they aren't interested, the combined cost of all the rulebooks mounting up being one of the reasons. And let's think about this. If you're already playing one or more 40K RPG's, you might not simply have the room for another game. That's what people are complaining about, here. I won't begrudge anyone with an interest in this particular theme, but I think I'm squarely in the "no more room" camp.

I was never interested in either Rogue Trader or Black Crusade, so I never bought the books. Only War however... that's an entirely different beast. :)

Really can't wait to see how they've handled the theme. If it's well done, this is a definite buy. And should they decide that the much awaited AdMech supplement will be made for Only War instead of Dark Heresy, I won't so much as shrug.

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I agree with the poster that says we should expand into Xeno's rulebooks. An Eldar one would be very much doable. Though I do think Only War will be a good addition.

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beowulf101 said:

*snort* no. That's both an incomplete and inaccurate assessment of White Wolf, past and present. They are currently one of the strongest RPG companies on the market. And they moved to PoD specifically to divorce themselves from the publishing model you're advocating, freeing them to publish as and when they wished instead of 'building' on their existing lines (translation: release more and more crud) until the fans won't buy any more and they replace it with a new edition (allowing them to release the same old crud again).

 

 

 

*SNORT* Laying off almost your entire staff?  Downsizing and altering a direction in the way that they have is survival, not growth.  Pull off their financial report and records, it's public domain information, as is CCP's.  Do Fantasy Flight as well while you're at it, you'll see the diffefrence between a 'strong' and a 'weak' company. 

That was a very, very uninformed comment.  

 

You have absolutely no idea what's actually happening over at CCP, do you? White Wolf is the section of the company that is doing well. Yes, they let go most of their staff - and then hired them back again as freelancers. Yes, they changed their direction in order to survive - the entire industry is trying to adapt to the shrinking market. WW have made the changes necessary and are now in a better position than almost any RPG company on the market. They've got a very strong release schedule - better than FFG's - and far lower costs.

As for FFG's publishing strategy, it's simply better for them than the one you're suggesting. A supplement treadmill + new edition isn't a viable strategy for FFG in today's market, instead they are using the supplement treadmill + new game strategy. Eventually it will cease to yield dividends (rulebook fatigue) but it lasts longer than the former plan. As plenty have already pointed out in this thread not enough people would be interested in a new edition yet. They have to delay the need for one for as long as possible.

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I have no objection to this book, with the following provisos:

1. They have the staff to properly write, playtest and edit the book. This is now the fifth line in the 'series' and so far FFG has demonstrated it cannot cope with that. Their attitude toward complaints is disgusting and frankly they should take stock rather than pump out product. We are STILL waiting on errata for BC. That they prioritise this over that tells me they are really just about making money.

2. The adversaries section, for once, is complete. BC has infamy points to help heretics fight really tough monsters such as necron lords, and provides no stats for them. No vehicles, nothing. This is a pattern repeated throughout their game lines and it's just absurd. DW core book had next to nothing and RT was even worse.

 

FFG need to step up their game considerably. They pumop out far too much product and have a dreadful attitude toward their paying customers. These books are expensive and their approach to the setting is far too haphazard. What is the point of releaing a book like Mark of Xenos and then 6 months later put another brand new 13 tyranids in the Jericho Reach book? Why are there only 3 Dark Eldar stats in BC? Where is the Mechanicus supplement? What about the Eldar (again there are only Harlequins in BC, no actual Eldar despite their involvement throughout the history of the Vortex?). Why are DE character rules coming out in a RT adventure book?

I want to support games like this, and I don't object to it (I presume it will be set in the Jericho Reach). But I want a lot more than some glib assurances from this company that they are on top of their considerable problems. Their attitude is completely wrong.

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I'm not thrilled about a separate corebook for the Imperial Guard. The Dark Heresy supplements handled the various Imperial aspects just fine up until now, so I feel that this might've worked better as such. Then again, the best thing would be to release a core book just titled Imperium and use it to gather all the various aspects of the Imperium and their rules into one big book. It could be used as a a general resource for all WH40K games, which means players from any of the already released lines would be interested in getting it.

I do understand that the most popular Black Library series is Gaunt's Ghosts, which means a lot of the WH40K fans who didn't dare "dabble" into the other aspects of WH40K roleplaying find a familiar setting more to their liking. (Personally, playing DW several times made me realise that I don't like action oriented RPGs.)

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FFG should really produce a core rulebook entitled 40k rpg with the rules in for using psychic powers, skill checks etc, combat, movement etc. This should include vehicles and starship rules and basic equipment. Then produce a series of books that contain the careers (eg deathwatch, dark heresy for the inquisition, Rogue trader, black crusade only war etc).This could include all the equipment that is specialised (land raiders for deathwatch, inquisitorial gubbinz and guncutters for rogue trader). Each could be the size of a core rulebook in its own right but without all the rules sections so more fluff and items. A bestiary of the daemonic and the xenos could be two separate books. You could even do one for the eldar with eldar careers and even Necrons.... this would mean that the players would not have five near identical rulebooks sitting on their shelves, allow FFG to publish as many supplements as they pleased and mean that all the supplements were cross compatible something which is sorely lacking!

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Fabian Grax said:

I don't think it's so arbitrary--many of the naysayers said exactly why they aren't interested, the combined cost of all the rulebooks mounting up being one of the reasons. And let's think about this. If you're already playing one or more 40K RPG's, you might not simply have the room for another game. That's what people are complaining about, here. I won't begrudge anyone with an interest in this particular theme, but I think I'm squarely in the "no more room" camp.

As far as people not buying it, well, that could be exactly what happens here. Frankly I'm afraid FFG might be competing with itself a little bit too much.



I don't know how to do multi-quoting on this board software, so this may be a little scattered. Apologies in advance.

1. If they're not interested, that's fine. I've never been terribly interested in Rogue Trader, and when it came out I just saw it as a milestone on the way to the game I really wanted: Deathwatch. Other love Rogue Trader to bits, and were over the moon at human characters that weren't the scum of the earth like DH characters. I didn't begrudge them their game, even though I saw it as something that wasn't Deathwatch, just like I didn't begrudge anyone Black Crusade when I first found out about that game (I was vehemently against BC when we were first told about it, but now count it as a game I really enjoy and really want to get back to). Furthermore I don't blame FFG for making more RT products, even thought out of the 4 (now 5) it's the one I'm least interested in.

2. See I don't buy the 'mounting cost' argument (if you'll excuse the pun!). You don't have to buy this game. You don't have to play this game. People who want to play this game will, and those that don't won't. People can like or dislike, and therefore buy and not buy what they want, right? No one's holding a Bolt Pistol to their head, even if this game does have Commissars!

3. You're right. You might not have room for another game. We have a Dark Heresy campaign, and many many ongoing Deathwatch games (most of our play-testing is Deathwatch stuff, and that takes up a lot of time). I really want to play Black Crusade, but we haven't had time. I'd love to see what RT's like, but again, no time. And now Only War on top of that? Yikes! I may not get to that game for another year. But that doesn't bother me. I'll play whatever we're playing now, and then change later when we feel like it. There's no time limit or imperative on these. Only War will still be there tomorrow, and if I don't have room for it right now, it can wait. What's the big deal?

4. No more room for what? And based on what non-arbitrary measure? How is this conclusion reached? Didn't people say that this BC was announced? Weren't some of the first complaints "Where's an update for Dark Heresy?". Today I saw someone say that FFG releases too much product. I've heard people say they don't release enough product. I've heard people say that they release too many adventure books. I've seen people say they release too few adventure books. I've seen people say they release more background source books than proper rules expansions. I've seen people say they release too many rules expansions and not enough background source books. People can't have it both ways!!! Everyone differs on what angle they take towards the 40K RPGs (and everything, really). Some people are annoyed when RT doesn't get enough attention, others get annoyed when it takes forever for the first BC expansion to come out (like me). Others get excited when a new game gets announced. Others get angry when they announce a new DE career in a book all about DE (that one I don't understand actually, but that's a separate issue). Can't we all just get along, or, to put it another way, can't we all just stop going around in circles and get on with the business of playing the game, especially the game we like the most and not worry about the others?

5. RE: Competing with themselves a bit too much. You know what? I don't disagree with you here. Release too many products (whatever 'too many' may be) and you end up in a world where there are so many product lines and so many things to 'update' and keep releasing things that eventually something's gonna give. I don't know if they've reached that point yet, and maybe OW will be the straw that breaks the Muulaki's back. Who knows? I think it's far too early to say and I think it's presumptuous to simply say that this book is "too many".

I hope that didn't sound too "shouty". happy.gif

BYE

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 Okay; Some of the postings here are becoming outright hateful IMHO. For those of you saying that OW should have stayed as a "Splatbook"; Let's examine what the pre-development meeting probably sounded like:

Team Manager : Okay guys; It's about time we started work on the next supplement we've been promising for DH. So what do we need to do?

Developer A: We could add some more careers for military types: Maybe Tankers, Gunners and oh yeah; Commisars. We also need to explain the roles of                             other classes in a wartime environment.

Developer B: We've been putting vehicle rules off for too long. This would be a great place to put them!

Developer C: Battle Psykers play an important role on the battlefield in 40k. We should update the Psycker rules to reflect our current set.

Developer D: Maybe we could also put in some conversion rules for the more outdated mechanics. DH was a good start but the system has really evolved                              since then!

Team Manager: The page count on this product is going to be as much or more then most of our Core rulebooks! Are we talking a complete game here?

 

Note: This may seem a little whimsical but at this stage of development I doubt FFG management was thinking of how they could "Rake" us for more dollars. A common sense appraisal of the amount of material covered basically dictated that it would essentially be a "Core rulebook" whether they called it that or not. If you're not interested in a Military themed game then don't buy it! But don't hammer the staff  for trying to deliver what a LOT of us have been asking for!

BTW: Every military organization since the dawn of time has considered themselves to be part a special "brotherhood" or fraternity. Suggesting that useing that terminology for a military theme is "Homo erotic" is both insulting to Veterans (Like me enfadado.gif) and conveys a woeful lack of understanding of what military service is about! To Paraphrase an old saying "Unit, Core, God (Emperor), Planet, Sir! This saying is meant to depict a soldier's priorities in why he (or she) fights and for whom. If you understand it you realise that it depicts a bond that few "Armchair quarterbacks" or Anarchist protesters will ever achieve! Brotherhood is as good a word as any as it is hard to explain that bond to someone who has never experienced it. < I'll stop ranting now.> gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

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trentmorten said:

FFG should really produce a core rulebook entitled 40k rpg with the rules in for using psychic powers, skill checks etc, combat, movement etc. This should include vehicles and starship rules and basic equipment. Then produce a series of books that contain the careers (eg deathwatch, dark heresy for the inquisition, Rogue trader, black crusade only war etc).This could include all the equipment that is specialised (land raiders for deathwatch, inquisitorial gubbinz and guncutters for rogue trader). Each could be the size of a core rulebook in its own right but without all the rules sections so more fluff and items. A bestiary of the daemonic and the xenos could be two separate books. You could even do one for the eldar with eldar careers and even Necrons.... this would mean that the players would not have five near identical rulebooks sitting on their shelves, allow FFG to publish as many supplements as they pleased and mean that all the supplements were cross compatible something which is sorely lacking!

+1

and we will probably see lots of recycled content: again stats for Orks and Genestealers and lasguns, space combat, etc etc

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Radwraith said:

 

 Okay; Some of the postings here are becoming outright hateful IMHO. For those of you saying that OW should have stayed as a "Splatbook"; Let's examine what the pre-development meeting probably sounded like:

Team Manager : Okay guys; It's about time we started work on the next supplement we've been promising for DH. So what do we need to do?

Developer A: We could add some more careers for military types: Maybe Tankers, Gunners and oh yeah; Commisars. We also need to explain the roles of                             other classes in a wartime environment.

Developer B: We've been putting vehicle rules off for too long. This would be a great place to put them!

Developer C: Battle Psykers play an important role on the battlefield in 40k. We should update the Psycker rules to reflect our current set.

Developer D: Maybe we could also put in some conversion rules for the more outdated mechanics. DH was a good start but the system has really evolved                              since then!

Team Manager: The page count on this product is going to be as much or more then most of our Core rulebooks! Are we talking a complete game here?

 

 

I had pretty much the same scene in my head. ^^

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I only wanted the stuff from Developer A and B. It's not that I hate a complete new book. My biggest gripe with all of this? Everything is spread over a different number of books. Say as a GM in a DW game I want to have them fight on a planet with Orcs. Which books do I need for Orc stats? I THINK there is something about them in Disciples of the Dark Gods. And there is something in Edge of the Abyss and Into the storm. I believe there are even other things published about them, but can't remember.

And what if I want to use eldar. There is something in the rogue trader trilogy yes? And something in the Black Crusade main book?

 

What I really want is an online document. Some kind of index on all their books. Need Orcs? Check book x, y and z. Looking for vehicle rules? Check book x and y.

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Well, one good thing is, it's a good content that won't be completely wasted by trying to fit in into the outdated DH rules.

At this point, that's the only good thing I see about having another 40k game about humans.

Where's my Eldar RPG, **** it!?

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macd21 said:

macd21 said:

 

 

 

You have absolutely no idea what's actually happening over at CCP, do you? White Wolf is the section of the company that is doing well. Yes, they let go most of their staff - and then hired them back again as freelancers. Yes, they changed their direction in order to survive - the entire industry is trying to adapt to the shrinking market. WW have made the changes necessary and are now in a better position than almost any RPG company on the market. They've got a very strong release schedule - better than FFG's - and far lower costs.

As for FFG's publishing strategy, it's simply better for them than the one you're suggesting. A supplement treadmill + new edition isn't a viable strategy for FFG in today's market, instead they are using the supplement treadmill + new game strategy. Eventually it will cease to yield dividends (rulebook fatigue) but it lasts longer than the former plan. As plenty have already pointed out in this thread not enough people would be interested in a new edition yet. They have to delay the need for one for as long as possible.

 

I have a very good idea. You obviously haven't looked at the CCP or White Wolf reports I mentioned.  I can't find a single report that says White Wolf should be loaned any more than $2,500.  What does this tell you?  Why do you think they are doing kickstarters to fund new product?  White Wolf are no longer the powerhouse they were and are in survival mode.  Remember TSR?

You're original *snort* post was frankly rude and confrontationally worded and this is off topic.  I'm quite happy to continue this offline from this forum, but before you write a single word to me get off your fanboy pedastel and look at reality.  

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I like 40k as much as the next person, but another core book?

 

Really wish they'd sunk their time into a Starwars RPG... come on guys.. Starwars!

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 Surely "Only War" would have worked better as a 'generic' supplement that could have plugged into any of the existing 40k rpgs lines? I can't see a compelling reason to make it a corebook other than to jack up the cover price by rehashing the existing core rules.

I typically like the concept of playing low-level 'mortal' characters but in this case many of the criticisms you could have levelled at Deathwatch are magnified in "Only War" eg. not enough diversity in player types, too much focus on combat.  FWIW i don't agree with those criticisms in regard to DW but I think they are valid in regard to Only War. The IG fight and die in their millions. Guardsmen have far less authority and agency over their actions than Space Marines or even a lowly DH acolyte. . If Only War was a supplement I could mine for stats, gear & background for my DW campaign would have snapped it up. But another rulebook? no thanks.

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