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beowulf101

One too Many

154 posts in this topic

Sorry FFG - really not feeling this one.

I'm sure it will be a beautifully put together book. However, it should have remained as a supplement. Wars are one of the main themes in 40K, and having a big book to help run them in the RPG style would have been perfect. War is an excellent escalation and raising of the stakes for the other games. The acolytes discovering dark secrets leading to wars, succession wars in Rogue Trader, etc. But just a whole new game for the IG seems like a waste.

//off topic//

Also, personally, I hoped that FFG would have been a little more imaginative if it came to marketing an IG game. I am disappointed that the first thing I see, when I click on a "soldiers" link, is "brotherhood" being advertised. This kind of self-congratulatory, exclusive masturbatory privilege is offensive to a lot of people (including me, if you hadn't guessed). It is a bit of a trend at the moment, to glorify this specific form of machismo.

I would have preferred FFG, whom I respect, to have promoted their new game in a less obtrusive and upsetting way. I'm not a marketing expert, but would have rather have seen something like "Operation: Ground and Pound" or "Over the top, over the top action in the 41st Millennium". Something, anything, less offensive. The worst thing to me is when people do not even realize how this is offensive.

//off topic end//

Still, we will see how the book turns out before purchase.

My main worry for the book, is that it will not cover enough of the 40K universe, and that a lot of stuff will fall to supplements to cover. The table top game has numerous books, one for each force, plus the "specialist" books covering siege warfare, aerial battles, etc. There is no way I can see, that one core book is going to cover all the foes the IG might face, on all the scales, in all the locales. I'm not even sure, with the core rules taking up precious pages, that the book will cover all the IG weapons and tanks.

Even though it is a classic, I kind of hope that the book doesn't cover orks as a central foe. We already have loads of stats for orks in the other FFG books, and the IG rules supplied will serve to cobble together a fearsome Blood Axe Clan, I'm sure. So I'm hoping for something else. If I could choose one, I'd vote Eldar. Very different, and would provide 1-on-1 matches for the IG stuff. E.g. Psykers vs. Farseers, Chimera vs. Falcons, Rough Riders vs. Jet Bikes, etc. This would be a nice way to showcase the rules. If the coverage was not as in depth, I guess two different choices would be better, to focus on the differences between the ways in which the IG must wage war. E.g. Tyrands and Tau.

#1 Fan wish, would be a decent set of simple mortar rules, that was more than a glorified Perception check.

Best wishes to everyone involved in the project!

 

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Saygah said:

Something, anything, less offensive. The worst thing to me is when people do not even realize how this is offensive.
What offends me is your ignorance on the topic.  It doesn't matter what side you're on, or what the politicians back home say you're fighting for, when the bullets start flying and human beings are being ground into hamburger, you keep going and don't quit because the guy next to you needs you to do your job, just like you need him to do his.  Back in the barracks, you may hate the ******, but on the front line, he's the best friend you're ever going to have.

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I feel that this going to be great!!! Core or Sup it doesn't matter to me, I use all my core books as sups for the games I run. I'm really excited to see the setting and where they are going to put it.

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I'd say Only War could fill the Band of Brothers slot quite well - it's probably the second-most-common setting in Dark Heresy campaigns already (right after Inquisition, of course). And to be honest: The DH-powerlevel could use a rules overhaul. In a system of essentially four editions, DH is the first and it shows.

 

@Saygah

Also, personally, I hoped that FFG would have been a little more imaginative if it came to marketing an IG game. I am disappointed that the first thing I see, when I click on a "soldiers" link, is "brotherhood" being advertised. This kind of self-congratulatory, exclusive masturbatory privilege is offensive to a lot of people (including me, if you hadn't guessed). It is a bit of a trend at the moment, to glorify this specific form of machismo.

I would have preferred FFG, whom I respect, to have promoted their new game in a less obtrusive and upsetting way. I'm not a marketing expert, but would have rather have seen something like "Operation: Ground and Pound" or "Over the top, over the top action in the 41st Millennium". Something, anything, less offensive. The worst thing to me is when people do not even realize how this is offensive.

I've got to admit that I don't. "The enemy may be powerful enough that we may as well be carrying flashlights, High Command thinks of us as disposable toys to be moved around on someone's tac screen, but we few, we happy few, we Band of Buggered..." is exactly the feeling I hope to get out of this game.

 

Even though it is a classic, I kind of hope that the book doesn't cover orks as a central foe. We already have loads of stats for orks in the other FFG books, and the IG rules supplied will serve to cobble together a fearsome Blood Axe Clan, I'm sure. So I'm hoping for something else. If I could choose one, I'd vote Eldar. Very different, and would provide 1-on-1 matches for the IG stuff. E.g. Psykers vs. Farseers, Chimera vs. Falcons, Rough Riders vs. Jet Bikes, etc. This would be a nice way to showcase the rules. If the coverage was not as in depth, I guess two different choices would be better, to focus on the differences between the ways in which the IG must wage war. E.g. Tyrands and Tau.

Considering Tau and Tyranids are two of the main enemies in Deathwatch, I doubt it's going to be them. However, I really hope it's not Eldar. Bringing those down to the level where a common trooper has any chance against a farseer would do a huge disservice to them and their lore.

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I agree with the OP...

This is definetly one too many!

 

Also, in general, FFG is releasing too many RPGs and Card Games and Dust Tactics stuff lately.
The entire Site becomes more and more boring for a "Boardgamers" heart....

 

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Dulahan said:

 Similar to how L5R has its mass combat tables but still leaves a way to focus on the PCs role.

+1

 

It's funny because I just said to my Rogue Trader players a couple of weeks ago: "I wish we had some rules that the mass combat table of L5R but for Rogue Trader".

 

I would really like to see something like that.

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This is too many books. I appreciate the thought, but with this many different lines I find it easy to believe that the support for each system will be spread too thin and those of us who do not play all the games will not be getting content for the system they want at an acceptable pace. It would be one thing if the Devs came out and said Line X is being discontinued and we will no longer be producing content for it for whatever reason. I also understand that many people do buy all of the books regardless and use them as splat books for the other lines. I was of this school of thought as well and I have quite a lot of books from all different lines. There comes a point though, when I have bought the same set of rules that most of the time seem copy/pasted from the last Core book with some tweaks. I own three of the Core books and I was already getting upset at the amount of repeat content I owned. Now if I want to get support for my games regarding the Imperial Guard I have to buy a lot of rules text I already own with some more tweaks? No dice.

I have put a significant amount of money into the franchise. The people whom consider themselves part of the core market and repeat customers have put more money into it than I have. If I feel like I would be getting ripped off, than I imagine that there's a significant segment of those people feeling even more livid than I am.

It is more than time for a Warhammer 40,000 Roleplaying Game 2nd Edition. A heavily play-tested set of rules that are used as a foundation for many more splat books containing the various scenarios the universe has to offer. I know I was just complaining about buying content that I already own and this suggestion is essentially more of the same but it at least puts my mind at ease to know that this edition would have a certain shelf-life that I can rely on. I would prefer that a new edition starts out at the bottom with a Necromunda-style power level where we play as gangers, arbitrators, PDF soldiers, clerics and administratum adepts surviving in the war-torn future with future expansions detailing scenarios like the Inquisition, Rogue Trader Dynasties, Space Marine Chapters and so on. The Core book would label all goods and services with a Thrones value and future expansions that would probably have their own unique system of finances if the trend continues have all heir goods and services listed in thrones as well so that we can have a proper and easy way to convert these things between systems that only requires the Core Book and the Expansions of your choosing. As for adjusting the power level of the games, just put an EXP cost on all "advanced" careers and races. Kinda went into wishlising mode there, but I trust that FFG reads the forums so I wanted to get my opinions out there.

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I am a pretty hardcore 40k roleplayer.  I own all the books from all the lines (except Jericho Reach).  I have an Inquisition I tattooed on my arm (as 2 2 other players from an epic 2 year DH game).  I am also upset by this book because now I have to honestly consider whether or not to stop my collecting of the books.  They are going to have 5 game lines each usually selling a new book every quarter or so which means 20 games a year.  These games arent cheap as they are hardcover with extensive artwork.  

 

I get that core books sell better than supplements.  From a business perspective it might be more profitable to do a Guard line than just a sourcebook.  FFG was going to have to come up with rules for Guards either way, might as well copy and paste the 50% of the this book that will be rehashed from the other 4 books and sell it as a core new book.  The problem is I am going to be paying 50 or 60 bucks for a book filled with the stats of a lasgun.  Or how to roll stats.  Or what actions I can take in combat.  Which are in Black Crusade.  Which are in Deathwatch.  Which are in Rogue Trader.  Which are in Dark Heresy.

 

Besides the rules for Psykers and BC not having class trees the books are very similar.  If you are going to come out with another main book, why not just an overall 2nd edition book.  Chances are you are going to do it anyway for DH eventually.  Just have it come out now and be the rules for the 40k universe.   Then instead of having to buy Inquisitors Handbook, Into the Storm, Rites of Battle etc just have 1 or 2 books for all the guns and tanks and everything that is spread out over all the books. 

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Just saw this forum. First reaction: Are you kidding me? I'm not in the camp that it's "too many RPGs in the same setting". But it most certainly is one too many centered around the hairless monkeys of the same setting. For goodness sake, start expanding into Xenos. I bought Black Crusade for rules for creating enemies and for Dark Eldar and Necron NPCs. But there's no way in the warp I'm buying a book about the Emperor's meatgrinder. What's next? Arbites? High Lords of Terra? Gangs of Necromunda? Imperial Navy? Oh, I know. Schola Progenium 90210.

Sorry, if you want my money give me some craftworld or corsair Eldar.

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 I agree with TheSaylesMan and Kors. It's time for a unifying second edition, that all the lines can be built from, not more games.

 

The oddity is that most systems support multiple settings.  Here it's reversed and we have one setting supporting five rulesets. How is that sustainable, and how can it be asked of people to buy a new rulesets each time rather than a bolt on set of mechanics with the new 'slant' of fluff the bolt on will take? Beautiful books, I have them all, but there are better ways to structure this. The time for the restructure is pretty much now - the more people invest now before second edition comes out, the more utterly hacked off people are going to be. 

 

Put me down for the play tests guys. 

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I'm mixed about this being a new 'core book'.

 

On one hand I have always believed this is what the 40K RPG line SHOULD have started with. (Not the Inquisition, 'Dork Hearsay')

Reasoning? All the RPG products since have been geared towards working in a group/unit.

Progression is simple, start as your run of the mill grinder/soldier in Only War and learn the roleplaying in the grim seetting where there is only war, move on to ship dynamics and crews with planetary assaults and more expanded en-masse Imperial military, like a crusade (aka, Only war) with Rogue Trader, and of course add on the xenos outlook and maybe even play them. Then move on to what you learned with baseline Humans and war, with Deathwatch; finally bringing all of what you learned and wanted with the superhuman fighters. Of course Black Crusade is then the icing on the cake as you can then reverse what all you just did. (Chaos with war, from Space Marines, Dark Eldar, to corrupt armies)

Dark Heresy never(in my opinion)....fit in this line of thinking. Civilians with little to no structure and cohesion (almost chaos itself) just going about nilly willy on planets like chickens without heads? It doesn't add up to the 'There is only War' that Warhammer 40K is based on. Dark, gritty, death. Anyways, on one side, I'm glad that what I originally was begging for in my games (Imperial Guard unit) is getting it's much needed attention. I just wish it had replaced Dark Heresy to being with. Would have made all these transitions make more sense. One step of units and how they fit in the endless war, at a time.

I know I'll be a sucker and buy this anways. I've always disliked DH, so I'll just use those books as the bastard-child flavour they have become to be for me. Only War will be my replacement for the start of a grand-scope to intergrate players into the fighting universe, and move into the larger and deadlier scales.

All-inall, I am getting frustrated now that there are so many 'core' books, and I may have to facepalm myself and realise a new 'prime edition' that puts all of this together is what FFG is looking to do, to score more sales and longevity off this product. You have to admit...we all still love this genre of the game, and at least most of us love one and or more of the core systems currently out. So we're here to stay, as long as they keep the system the same and don't gimmick it like they did to Warhammer Fantasy. (2nd ed is still better then FFG's take)

 

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beowulf101 said:

Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Black Crusade are enough.  Black Crusade should have been the end of the 40K line and the existing products expanded and built on.  All things considered, four RPG games in the same setting already pushes the boundary.  Five?  I'm not buying.  The idea that throwing out content and sooner or later something will be a success is a real turn off.  If anything, build what's already out and then learn the lessons of this set of mechanics and let's move on to 40K second edition - an edition that hopefully means the release of one core book, the unification of the disparate Psi powers and releases additional material for that one book.  In short, there's no need for what's happening, and I personally am rather angry with the release of another rulebook.  

 

I don't want a flame war with anyone on here, this is my own personal sentiment.  There are better ways of doing things, especially when the books cost so much - enough already. 

How does buying a 2nd Edition core rulebook (and then buying all the 2nd Edition books that go with it) when you have already bought the current books make any sense?

And how does paying $60 for a role-playing game that has only one race (class, job, whatever) in it make any sense?

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Shonner said:

beowulf101 said:

 

Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Black Crusade are enough.  Black Crusade should have been the end of the 40K line and the existing products expanded and built on.  All things considered, four RPG games in the same setting already pushes the boundary.  Five?  I'm not buying.  The idea that throwing out content and sooner or later something will be a success is a real turn off.  If anything, build what's already out and then learn the lessons of this set of mechanics and let's move on to 40K second edition - an edition that hopefully means the release of one core book, the unification of the disparate Psi powers and releases additional material for that one book.  In short, there's no need for what's happening, and I personally am rather angry with the release of another rulebook.  

 

I don't want a flame war with anyone on here, this is my own personal sentiment.  There are better ways of doing things, especially when the books cost so much - enough already. 

 

 

How does buying a 2nd Edition core rulebook (and then buying all the 2nd Edition books that go with it) when you have already bought the current books make any sense?

And how does paying $60 for a role-playing game that has only one race (class, job, whatever) in it make any sense?

 

For unification of the system and so that no one has to keep buying the rules in a slightly tweaked format? Buying the rules five times over to play what is essentially the same game with new mechanics costs $300 (5 rulesets at $60 each). That's a disgrace. One core book, unified and overhauled mechanics and then you can have.... A single bestiary. A single armaments book. A single setting book for each tree of the game (BC, DH etc), and the books should cost less as a result of losing all of those pages of rules that were already bought. 

 

Aside from anything, the system is showing its age - compare DH to BC. Time for an overhaul. 

 

 

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Lord Kruge said:

 

What offends me is your ignorance on the topic.  [snip] in the barracks, you may hate the ******, but on the front line, he's the best friend you're ever going to have.

 

 

 

I'm not arguing about the realities of war. I'm talking about the fetishization of it. The current popular interpretation and use of what we're talking about has nothing to do with the troops engaged in military actions, and everything to do with armchair soldiers engaged in borderline homo-erotic self aggrandizement. Human beings pulling together to survive in difficult situations, military or otherwise, is a triumphant story. White men comparing weapon size while shouting "no homo" from the comfort of their couch isn't.

I have nothing but respect for anyone serving in the armed or emergency services. I was just a little disappointed to see FFG using chliched and, what some people including myself consider to be, offensive slogans in their marketing.

Game on!

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I can't see myself buying this, not for quite a while at least. I've already gotten fatigued with the number of releases out for the first four lines.

That said, I can see the value of a game designed around the imperial guard. Each system has its own feel and tweaks, so they're more than just upgrades of the 40krpg core mechanics (though those are arguably included). A game specifically geared towards the very popular concept of "band of brothers" is appealing.

Someone mentioned a High Lords of Terra game in an off-hand comment. I'd actually love to see a game geared towards that level of intrigue and power. What ascension tried to do, only more so and fully realised. Pitting the resources of entire Adepta against each other, culminating in rising to the Senate. I'd play it.

 

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beowulf101 said:

 

For unification of the system and so that no one has to keep buying the rules in a slightly tweaked format? Buying the rules five times over to play what is essentially the same game with new mechanics costs $300 (5 rulesets at $60 each). That's a disgrace. One core book, unified and overhauled mechanics and then you can have.... A single bestiary. A single armaments book. A single setting book for each tree of the game (BC, DH etc), and the books should cost less as a result of losing all of those pages of rules that were already bought.  

Aside from anything, the system is showing its age - compare DH to BC. Time for an overhaul.  

 

 

I can (mostly) agree with this. Compared to some people here in this thread I have no problem buying one more core rulebook mostly because I left out DW and because I buy only very few non-core rulebooks (usually the advanced players guide and that's about it).

Unrelated to actually buying the 5th core ruleset I hope that this will be the last core rulebook before a major overhaul both in mechanics and in printing / distribution policy. As people have pointed out core rulebooks do sell better but I hope that FFG can switch to a format that doesn't involve repriting large parts of the mechanics in various books.
Maybe a D&D style approach would work for the games with multiple smaller core rulebooks (similar to a players guide, dungeon masters guide and monster manual) and "setting" books that provide you with what you need to have if you want to run a Space Marine themed campaign similar to what WotC does with books like Setting-A Players Guide and Setting-A DM Guide.

 

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Saygah said:

White men comparing weapon size while shouting "no homo" from the comfort of their couch isn't

 

What are you blithering about? What has any of that got to do with Only War.

And there's a woman on the front cover!!!

BYE

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Saygah said:


 

 

 

Lord Kruge said:

 

What offends me is your ignorance on the topic.  [snip] in the barracks, you may hate the ******, but on the front line, he's the best friend you're ever going to have.

 

 

 

I'm not arguing about the realities of war. I'm talking about the fetishization of it. The current popular interpretation and use of what we're talking about has nothing to do with the troops engaged in military actions, and everything to do with armchair soldiers engaged in borderline homo-erotic self aggrandizement. Human beings pulling together to survive in difficult situations, military or otherwise, is a triumphant story. White men comparing weapon size while shouting "no homo" from the comfort of their couch isn't.

I have nothing but respect for anyone serving in the armed or emergency services. I was just a little disappointed to see FFG using chliched and, what some people including myself consider to be, offensive slogans in their marketing.

Game on!

I find your racist, sexist statement regarding white men offensive. 

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I like the idea and I'll pick up at least the core book. 

What I do not want is a second edition.  I'm sick and tired of gaming lines being "rebooted" every two to five years.  Having to re-buy a game line because there's a new edition seems like a bigger money sink to me than a publisher offering new material that I don't already own. 

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So uhh... how many games is too many exactly? And how do we come to that conclusion? What’s it based on? Why is 4 just right but 5 too many? Why not 6? Or 7? How about 10? Lot of very arbitrary declarations about what’s ‘too much’ going on here. Rather amusing actually.

And why complain about having to buy yet another core rulebook. You don’t have to buy anything if you don’t want to. Only War is a separate game – not an expansion to another game – and thus it comes with the rules to play that game. Sure it might have begun life as a Dark Heresy supplement (why it changed I do not know), and yes, DH could sure do with a 2.0 update (or at least an extensive errata and reprint), but now it’s its own game. I thought the idea of Black Crusade was stupid when I first saw it, but I gave it a chance and now I really like it. Maybe some people should do the same here...

And, as an aside, I think there’s a good amount of people who would sell their own grandmothers for a Necromunda-based RPG.
 

 

BYE

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I don't get what everyone is griping about... if you think it's to much and don't want it don't get it. It was clearly described as a book that will work with all the other lines with the BONUS of having some interesting new rules! If cost is a factor for people, they do release PDF versions which are cheaper. I personally have a good mix of actual books and PDF's since FFG does release a lot and it's hard to keep up my collector zeal. I love that though! 

I guess I'm just saying that I'm glad to see lots of material being released in many different and useful ways for an IP that I am very interested in as opposed to a slow trickle or nothing at all and I was happily surprised about this release. 

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H.B.M.C. said:

So uhh... how many games is too many exactly? And how do we come to that conclusion? What’s it based on? Why is 4 just right but 5 too many? Why not 6? Or 7? How about 10? Lot of very arbitrary declarations about what’s ‘too much’ going on here. Rather amusing actually.

And why complain about having to buy yet another core rulebook. You don’t have to buy anything if you don’t want to. Only War is a separate game – not an expansion to another game – and thus it comes with the rules to play that game. Sure it might have begun life as a Dark Heresy supplement (why it changed I do not know), and yes, DH could sure do with a 2.0 update (or at least an extensive errata and reprint), but now it’s its own game. I thought the idea of Black Crusade was stupid when I first saw it, but I gave it a chance and now I really like it. Maybe some people should do the same here...

And, as an aside, I think there’s a good amount of people who would sell their own grandmothers for a Necromunda-based RPG.
 

 

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

So uhh... how many games is too many exactly? And how do we come to that conclusion? What’s it based on? Why is 4 just right but 5 too many? Why not 6? Or 7? How about 10? Lot of very arbitrary declarations about what’s ‘too much’ going on here. Rather amusing actually.

And why complain about having to buy yet another core rulebook. You don’t have to buy anything if you don’t want to. Only War is a separate game – not an expansion to another game – and thus it comes with the rules to play that game. Sure it might have begun life as a Dark Heresy supplement (why it changed I do not know), and yes, DH could sure do with a 2.0 update (or at least an extensive errata and reprint), but now it’s its own game. I thought the idea of Black Crusade was stupid when I first saw it, but I gave it a chance and now I really like it. Maybe some people should do the same here...

And, as an aside, I think there’s a good amount of people who would sell their own grandmothers for a Necromunda-based RPG.
 

 

BYE

 

My grandmother is long dead, but I'm willing to offer up any number of in-laws for said Necromunda RPG.  Please include the Red Redemption, Ratskins, and Spyerers.  And make House Delaque the best of all the gangs.  And I want Pit Fighters, too. 

Wait, is the selling of family members for an RPG offensive?  I don't want my games set in an imaginary world of violence, blood-letting, and subjugation to offend anyone.  That would be wrong. 

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One game was enough. In my honest opinion, each extra game has felt like it should have been a supplement for the first game. And I am tired of te lie of "Fully compatible" as they are not even nearly compatible. OK, so Im a bit harsh there, they are slightly compatible and in need of much GM rules-making on the fly.

This is indeed the game I have wanted since Dark Heresy came out, but I honestly can see this being nothing but 75% retread from teh previous 4 games and supplements with only 25% truly new material. ITs actually exactly what I predicted in 2008. As the contract grows closer to expiring (assuming its a 5 year deal)  you will see more and more cash grabs by FFG.

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tuco said:

And make House Delaque the best of all the gangs.

 

How can you make them the best of all gangs when they are already the best of all gangs? gui%C3%B1o.gif

BYE

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H.B.M.C. said:

tuco said:

And make House Delaque the best of all the gangs.


 

 

How can you make them the best of all gangs when they are already the best of all gangs? gui%C3%B1o.gif

BYE

 

Trench coats, goggles, and sneakiness FTW!

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