The Doorway - When to trigger?

[booored 247]

With the Doorway... when can I trigger this... it has the keyword DISRUPT, so I know I can use this after my opponent cats an event. My question is..

• Dose the story "phase" include the struggles?
• Is it possible to trigger this card and bounce my card back into my hand AFTER the struggles are won/lost?
• The "Determine Susses" is the next phase right?

Basically I want to know if I have a card I want to bounce back to my hand like Lord Jerfory for example, can I do it after the struggles are resolved but not affect the placement of the success token?

??

 

Disrupt: Exhaust to choose a character you control that is committed to a story and return it to your hand.

[jhaelen 98]

The general rule about taking actions during the story phase is this (from the FAQ):

The only responses players can choose to trigger are Disrupts, however Forced Responses that apply to the situation must trigger automatically.

However, this card is unique in that despite being a triggered action of the Disrupt type, it doesn't mention any trigger.

Here's the relevant quote from the FAQ:

Disrupts can be played immediately, whenever their play requirement is
met, and their resolution precedes the resolution of the occurrence that
allowed the disrupt to be triggered.

Since the card text doesn't mention any play requirement, I'd have to conclude it can be played whenever you want, including all of the scenarios you described. Of course it could just as well be the case that the card simply requires errata.

[booored 247]

yeah the lack of a trigger on the disrupt is what was confusing me... seams VERY powerful. What events do we have acess to to place cards directly fomr your hand back into play? Tap this bounce a dude, place back in play combo I am thinking?

[TheProfessor 4]

 From the rule book (P 13):

A triggered effect is any effect which is preceded by the following text in bold: Action, Disrupt, Response, or Forced Response.

 

[Penfold3 0]

 I suspect it needs errata, but until such time it can be trigger at any point in the timing charts where a disrupt can be played, as long as you have a character committed to a story.

[Surreal 0]

Is it then a legal play to choose a character to get a wound from lost combat struggle and then use Doorway to Disturpt it and return that character to my hand?

[jhaelen 98]

Surreal said:

Is it then a legal play to choose a character to get a wound from lost combat struggle and then use Doorway to Disturpt it and return that character to my hand?

I suppose so. You'd have to wound a different character after that, though (if any other character or yours is still committed).

[TheProfessor 4]

jhaelen said:

 

Is it then a legal play to choose a character to get a wound from lost combat struggle and then use Doorway to Disturpt it and return that character to my hand?

 

I suppose so. You'd have to wound a different character after that, though (if any other character or yours is still committed).

 

Why?  You could target the character who was chosen to receive the wound and Disrupt before applying the wound, I reckon? Isn't there a time step between choosing the character to take a wound and applying the wound?

Then if the character chosen to take the wound is no longer there, I see no reason to select a different character to take a wound??

[Penfold3 0]

 If a Disrupt can cancel a wound a character is selected to receive, then this should be able to return the character selected for a wound to your hand.

[jhaelen 98]

TheProfessor said:

 

Why?  You could target the character who was chosen to receive the wound and Disrupt before applying the wound, I reckon? Isn't there a time step between choosing the character to take a wound and applying the wound?

I have no idea, really - which is basically what I stated above. I think it would be odd to be able to disrupt after taking the wound but before being destroyed. I cannot fathom that as being two distinct time steps.

It's a weird card requiring errata. Period.

[jhaelen 98]

Penfold said:

 If a Disrupt can cancel a wound a character is selected to receive, then this should be able to return the character selected for a wound to your hand.

I disagree. Take e.g. Forest Sister: It says: Pay 1 to cancel a wound.

I.e. canceling the wound is not a standard feature of a disrupt; it only works because the card explicitly mentions that the wound is canceled.

The Doorway's disrupt does nothing but return a character to your hand. All you get to choose is when to trigger it.

And imho, that's either before you assign the wound to a character or after, and not somewhere in the limbo between getting wounded and being destroyed.

[B_P 0]

Rulebook says p. 9:

# Combat Struggle
The player who loses a Combat struggle must immediately choose
one of his characters (committed to that story) to take a wound, if
able.

You have to choose a character.

OR the faq says in choosing targets (1.5) :

Also note that if a card is targeted, but becomes an illegal target (e.g., via a Disrupt: action), the targeting effect is then ignored.

 

So, for me, if I have to wound a character and have the doorway, i can bounce it and not take a wound on another character.

 

Does it make any sense to you?

[Surreal 0]

 I agree with B_P. You can trigger The Doorway to whatever effect during combat if character is committed. Doorway should naturally work if Forest Sister disrupt works also. 

But I have to say that CoC seems to have quite messy rule set. It is very hard to grasp logic behind rules.

I guess this legal play also. You control Trent Dixon and other random character. You commit them to different stories. Start of the combat struggle you bounce random character back to hand. Trent Dixon is now only character commited so his effect goes on and story with no character will resolve because it already started to resolve with one attacking character commited. 

[Magnus Arcanis 1]

My 2 cents.

The doorway can trigger any time an action is initiated by a card or game effect which would be after targets are designated but before the effect is executed. As long as it's designated target is commited at a story of course.

EDIT: Take the above as my opinion, not an actual offical ruling. Thank you and have a nice day.

 

[jhaelen 98]

B_P said:

Also note that if a card is targeted, but becomes an illegal target (e.g., via a Disrupt: action), the targeting effect is then ignored.

Does it make any sense to you?

Yep, it does.

Actually, some time after posting I thought about having to check the wording of the combat struggle resolution to see if it counts as a targeted effect.

Since it does, I'm reversing my opinion on this.

 

I am not reversing my opinion that the card requires errata, though, _or_ that the rules must be amended to allow for Triggered Actions that don't specify a trigger.

[Penfold3 0]

 I assume we talking about Trent as the attacker. Disrupt happens before the struggle resolves but the story initiation has begun… I'm thinking yes because I couldn't find anything that says when there are no more characters committed to a story resolution of that story immediately halts. You might want to verify this with Damon though.

[Yipe 251]

I'm starting to get pretty confused (and a little worried) by all the unresolved rules questions that keep popping up - and it's less than 2 months until I'll be judging a Regional Championship!  Hopefully the FAQ will be updated soon.

Another question:

How does the Doorway interact with Khopesh of the Abyss?

Step 1e of "Action is Initiated" is to pay the cost.  Is wounding your own character considered part of the action's cost, or is that part of step 3 "Action is Executed"?

If it's part of step 1e, then would the Doorway be able to remove a target character while still forcing the Khopesh-attached character to take a wound in order to start the action?

[Surreal 0]

Yipe said:

I'm starting to get pretty confused (and a little worried) by all the unresolved rules questions that keep popping up - and it's less than 2 months until I'll be judging a Regional Championship!  Hopefully the FAQ will be updated soon.

Another question:

How does the Doorway interact with Khopesh of the Abyss?

Step 1e of "Action is Initiated" is to pay the cost.  Is wounding your own character considered part of the action's cost, or is that part of step 3 "Action is Executed"?

If it's part of step 1e, then would the Doorway be able to remove a target character while still forcing the Khopesh-attached character to take a wound in order to start the action?

I don't think so. Khopesh doesn't have cost anywhere. It doesn't use template do Y to do X. Whole effect (both take a wound) should fizzle if you bounce a character back. But I have to say that I don't understand why Khopesh doesn't say "wound this character to choose and wound a character". Would had been so much simpler. 

[Yipe 251]

Yes, I can see now by the wording on Khopesh that both characters receive wounds at the same time.

[Supa2 0]

I'm not so sure. If a card has multiple effects, you have to try to resolve all of them, even of some cannot be resolved.

(2.24) Multiple Effects
If a card has multiple effects, all effects
on the card are resolved, if possible,
independently of whether any other
effects of the card are successful
(following targeting restrictions as
normal), with the following important
exception: <blabla about "then">

If there was a "if able" at the end of the effect, then no character would be wounded if at least once of them was made an illegal target.

Certain card effects contain the text “if
able.” For these cards all normal rules
apply for choosing targets and triggering
effects, with one exception: If there is no
legal target during resolution, there is no
effect.

But that's not the case, so you have to resolve the effects at the maximum you can do, so wounding the remaining one if the other got bounced back thanks to the disrupt.

That's the same thing as "Lost in Madness" (Action: All characters in play go insane). Obviously, if there are characters with willpower or one tentacle in play, you resolve the effect as much as you can and all the characters without willpower and tentacles go insane. The effect doesn't fizzle. It would fizzle with a "if able" at the end.

[Surreal 0]

Supa said:

I'm not so sure. If a card has multiple effects, you have to try to resolve all of them, even of some cannot be resolved.

Khopesh doesn't have multiple effects. FAQ says under the question how Khopesh interacts with Invulnerability:

…Any card effect that seeks
to specifically wound a character with
Invulnerability cannot be triggered. Since
the attached character cannot legally be
wounded and it is a single effect that
seeks to wound both characters, the
entire effect fails.

I don't know why Khopesh is a single effect. Can't say anything else that FAQ says so.

[Supa2 0]

Nothing defines what's an "effect" is. There is barely something for "Multiple effects" (Some cards have effects that attempt to
do more than one thing). We know how to deal with them but not how to identify them. The multiple effects rule seems a good way to explain why "Lost in Madness" doesn't fizzle when there is a character that cannot go insane in play and if it works with LiM, there's no reason to treat the Kopesh differently.

[Supa2 0]

Except, of course, that a FAQ says it's a single effect. I don't know the rational behind it and it doesn't seem to come from rulebook.

[Surreal 0]

Supa said:

Except, of course, that a FAQ says it's a single effect. I don't know the rational behind it and it doesn't seem to come from rulebook.

I feel they just made a wording mistake with Khopesh totally working rules wise with Invulnerable characters. Then they tried to patch it with ruling in FAQ. The ruling just might not make sense and be rational rules wise. More elegant solution would had been to change wording on Khopesh to "Wound this character to choose and wound a character.

[Penfold3 0]

 The Khopesh has a number of effects on it, but the wounding is a single effect that deals 1 wound each to two characters. That single effect is either successful or unsuccessful. A card that cannot legally even attempt to have an effect resolve on it means the effect cannot be triggered at all which means the other character could not be wounded since it is the same effect that wounds them both.

If I have a double barrel shotgun any thing that stops me from firing the shotgun stops me from firing both barrels. A bullet proof vest however could still protect one of the people being shot but that is canceling the wound not stopping the pulling of the trigger.