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Miloslav Warp Engines

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I suppose if you are trying to "balance" things then sure, I could see some changes being made.  Our group almost never deviates from RAW

 

Which leads to situations such as an Explorator using his verging-on-triple-digits Tech-Use skill to take over the ship and subvert the Rogue Trader's control of it. Each to their own, but I personally detest the idea of 'best in slot' components. The Miloslav, the teleportarium, murder-servitors, Sunsears, these are all components that stand out so far above other components in their class (Typically because of an oversight or lack of clarification in their rules) that the only reason for players to take something else is a conscious decision to make in-character choices regarding the component during the creation process.

Edited by Errant

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The point is that making quicker trips in the Warp is going to lead to more trips in the Warp.  They aren't going to sit around doing nothing with those 300 extra days, they are going to go off on their next trip.  That means more days traveling in the Warp.  Even discounting days spent traveling and adventuring in realspace, they are going to make more Warp trips than someone with a slower drive over the same years of time.  That will add up to additional days in the warp, which will lead to more possible encounters.  I know we as players and GMs tend to ignore time unless it is important to the plot but it becomes important when discussing the risk of using the Miloslav Warp Engine.

 

Example:  Damaris to Footfall:  If you assume that each ship takes 50 days of realspace time traveling to port and loading/unloading, then the Strelov Warp Ship takes 225 days per trip (175 in the Warp, with 35 possible encounters) and the Miloslav Warp Ship takes 138 days per trip (88 in the warp, with 30 possible encounters.  Over the course of 6.25 years the Strelov Warp Ship makes 10 trips and the Miloslav Warp ship makes 16 trips.  That means that the Strelov ship has 350 possible encounters, while the Miloslav Warp Ship has 480 possible encounters.  That is why I say that over the longer time (not distance) the Miloslav Warp Engine has more risk.  If you are only making 20 day Warp trips, the Miloslav Warp Ship can make 23 trips to the Strelov's 20 but will have 92 encounters to the Strelov's 80 encounters.  In both cases, the Miloslav Warp Ship has more possible encounters over the same length of time.  It will make more trips, but with the cost and time taken to build a ship many captain's will not risk it.

 

Unless you normally play out every warp encounter in the game, both trips were probably just quick dicerolls for the players,  I tend to roll up encounters and run the more intersting ones, which doing a quick discription of any that are not likely to be a serious threat.  If you do run every single encounter, then you are making life easier for yourself by reducing the number of Warp encounters you need to run per trip.  Either way, the ammount of time it takes to get somewhere is rarely critical.  I agree that they are superior on a RT ship, although I would call them risky on non RT ships due to the weaker crews.  These drives were tried out in the Imperium, and they were not widely used because of the risk factor.  Over a set number of years traveling back and forth in the Warp, a ship is actually going to have more encounters.  That means that a ship running goods from Scintilla to Port Wander is less likely to use the drives than a RT out in the Expanse.

 

Also, I noted that no one responded to the fact that Warpbane hull offers the same benifits and more without taking any more power or space.  This is an item that EVERY group I have ever run takes.  It is better than the Miloslav drive, for all that it costs 2SP.  It also halves Warp travel durations (Extra DoS), and it makes it much SAFER doing so.  There is also

 

As for 'Best in Slot', that is how 40k works.  There is always some component that is better for the same size/cost/troop space.  For some, like Teleportariums, I simply up the rarity because everyone wants them.  Sunsears are only better if you have the 2 Power and Space to spare.  Murder-Servitors are only good if you are going to get close for Hit and Runs, and imho there is a risk if the component becomes damaged of them running amok.  For others, there is a reason they are so common.  The 40k universe isn't ballanced in any way.  Astartes are better than Stormtroops who are better than Guardsmen who are better than Grots (probably). 

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As for 'Best in Slot', that is how 40k works.  There is always some component that is better for the same size/cost/troop space.  For some, like Teleportariums, I simply up the rarity because everyone wants them.  Sunsears are only better if you have the 2 Power and Space to spare.  Murder-Servitors are only good if you are going to get close for Hit and Runs, and imho there is a risk if the component becomes damaged of them running amok.  For others, there is a reason they are so common.  The 40k universe isn't ballanced in any way.  Astartes are better than Stormtroops who are better than Guardsmen who are better than Grots (probably). 

 

But that's just agreeing with my point; there are components that are, per RAW, significantly better than other components that perform the same nominal function for a given use of space and power if you don't house rule them. I don't think this should be the case; there should be a viable reason to take every weapon that exists. Instead, what we see is people grab the 'essential' supplemental components like warpsbane hull, miloslav, sunsears, teleportarium if the GM allows selecting archeotech without reliquary of mars, and so on and so forth, then add in anything else they can fit into the vessel. 

 

As for the Miloslav, each individual trip is still safer and faster than the Strelov. This means that although you may face more warp encounters over time, this is counterbalanced by your ability to get more things done. If you can deliver sixteen full loads of alien eggs to Malfi before they've molted while your rival Rogue Trader struggles to ship through ten before they've hatched into ten-foot-tall lizards that breathe fire, you will dominate the market.

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And why should murder servitors pick their critical hits?  They are mindless.  They don't perform well on the table top, even sans points-buy systems, and I don't see why they should dominate Rogue Trader.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, you could make rules requiring someone to go with them to guide them, or rules to..., or rules to....

 

And that's the crux of the problem.  They don't work logically, to me, RAW.

 

As for your arguments on the Milosalv, William Asher, Errant and Marwynn already said everything I could.  The Miloslav is better, and more importantly, it unravels all the published adventures.  Published equipment shouldn't do that to published adventures.  It makes no sense.

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I suppose if you are trying to "balance" things then sure, I could see some changes being made.  Our group almost never deviates from RAW

 

Which leads to situations such as an Explorator using his verging-on-triple-digits Tech-Use skill to take over the ship and subvert the Rogue Trader's control of it. Each to their own, but I personally detest the idea of 'best in slot' components. The Miloslav, the teleportarium, murder-servitors, Sunsears, these are all components that stand out so far above other components in their class (Typically because of an oversight or lack of clarification in their rules) that the only reason for players to take something else is a conscious decision to make in-character choices regarding the component during the creation process.

 

That is a fair point!  But I have no complaints about his activities Out of Game, that player is just doing what he always does.  I just need to step up my game to keep him on his toes!  

Edited by RogalDorn01

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The transports that run intersystem runs get normal warp engines.  They equip every exploratory ship with Miloslav, but the intersystem runs only use the normal warp engines so they lose less ships to warp accidents.  Every single ship gets a Warpbane Hull though, as soon as they obtain a ship they fit it with the Warpbane Hull.  Every new construction of any type gets a Warpbane Hull.  Imho the Warpbane Hull is much more of an issue.

 

Note that the published adventures are usually useless for timelines anyways.  They either drastically underestimate travel time or assume that PC Navigators are the same as NPC.  The PC Navigator with a 90 Warp Navigation, Warpbane Hull, and Good Charts will beat the NPC even without the Miloslav by a factor of 2-4 anyways.  In the trilogy they wrote, I had to override most of the travel times because they were completely rediculous.

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It seems to me that the Miroslav is more effective assuming you have a PC Navigator and he never ever misses a session.  In our game we will never have one because our lord captain was on a ship once that lost its' Gellar Field in the warp and only escaped due to some unusual interference, and because it was his backstory...

 

But consequently he refuses to do anything that could be construed as an unnecessary risk when it comes to the warp.  He gets scared...

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There's a great warp drive for that.  Hostile Acquisitions, I think.

 

Edit: if there's no cost to using the Miloslav, it will always be better for an exploration vessel or a warship. This is because of the strategic value of it's warp-speed.

 

If having increased morale losses and a lower base morale is insufficient cost for you, Errant, then level a normal speed penalty.  Interference from the warp drive reduces the Plasma Drive output, which makes Ahead Flank actions impossible and reduces tactical speed by two.

 

Suddenly nobody will want Miloslavs except for dedicated courier boats with Warpsbane hulls.

Edited by Annaamarth

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Annaamarth, if I nerf it that grossly I might as well just ban it.  I've taken away the x2 warp speed for now, but my players still buy it every time just for the power savings.  I can live with that.  They save power but the Warp is more dangerous, and still they take it every time.  Geez...

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Annaamarth, if I nerf it that grossly I might as well just ban it.  I've taken away the x2 warp speed for now, but my players still buy it every time just for the power savings.  I can live with that.  They save power but the Warp is more dangerous, and still they take it every time.  Geez...

 

This captures the essence of Rogue Trader. We've seen an uptick of 67% in Warp-related deaths everytime our fleet moves everywhere, but **** it we're saving money and all it's costing us is thousands of unimportant lives!

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I actually like the Miloslav because  of it's strategic strength, as opposed to the power savings.  The power savings are a nice benefit, but I feel like removing the speed just nullifies what it's supposed to be.

 

If you think that nerf is too strong, then you could reduce the strength of the nerf.  A minus two to tactical speed, unless silent running, and a small penalty to ahead flank.  A good tech-priest will still make your ship move like a bat out of hell, silent running is unaffected, but you're still paying a tactical cost for the strategic strength.

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We all like the Miloslav for its Warp speed.  That's the main reason its chosen.  I just wonder how much I need to change it before it isn't chosen every time.  Frankly, the best fix is it takes considerably more power and space.  I just don't know what the fair trade-off is.  Basically, at what point do people choose a Runecaster instead?

 

Which brings up another question...do a Runecaster and Miloslav in combination triple or quadruple warp speed?

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Which brings up another question...do a Runecaster and Miloslav in combination triple or quadruple warp speed?

 

Mixing xeno-tech intented for use in the webway, with an overclocked warp engine... What could go wrong?

I'd f### up really bad with a Navigator's mind trying to go 4x the normal travel time (imagine driving off-road at 200kmh by night with a16 wheeler, but hey! you are using a GPS and night vision googles).

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do a Runecaster and Miloslav in combination triple or quadruple warp speed?

The way I decided it, modifiers from Essential components happen first, then Supplementals, in descending order of speed increase. I had it flowcharted somewhere after my players decided to get every speed-modifying upgrade they could and build a time machine out of it.

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do a Runecaster and Miloslav in combination triple or quadruple warp speed?

The way I decided it, modifiers from Essential components happen first, then Supplementals, in descending order of speed increase. I had it flowcharted somewhere after my players decided to get every speed-modifying upgrade they could and build a time machine out of it.

 

 

They totally deserve a high-five for that. Mostly for hilarity and creativity.

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Planning session:

"We really want to play up the political and economic powers that a Rogue Trader's dynasty has! We want Spice and Wolf meets Horatio Hornblower!"

Two weeks later:

"So we built this ship that will reliably make any trip in between 1 and -10 weeks..."

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Planning session:

"We really want to play up the political and economic powers that a Rogue Trader's dynasty has! We want Spice and Wolf meets Horatio Hornblower!"

Two weeks later:

"So we built this ship that will reliably make any trip in between 1 and -10 weeks..."

 

Well, it'll allow you to charge a few fortunes simply for always delivering before time... or you get nothing, since nobody ordered anything yet :D

 

"Sir, there are merchants, selling us A few Megatons of Water in response to the... drought..." "We don't need Water, we're perfectly fine, how can there be a drought in this effin rain? Send them away." 

*A few weeks later*

"Someone send a request to get us some water!"

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I always got bad grades in algebra.
Do the parentheses go first, or division, and the math left to right?
What is order of operations ?
 
 
So for maximum spank:
 
Starchart Collection (-1d5+5Days Warp Travel Time, Min. 1 day), 
 
Skittish ('Between Stars' travel time cut by 1d5 weeks, min. 1), 
 
RuneCaster - gain a +20 bonus to all Navigation Tests. 
  Additionally, any journeys made using this Component take half their normal time. 
 
Miloslav Warp Engines: Reduce the duration of all warp travel times by half, 
  but roll on the Warp Travel Encounters every 3 days instead of every 5. 

 

 

what say you? which effect applies first to last ?

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Just to pitch in here, my players have actually never picked a Miloslav for the simple reason that in canon, its considered a cursed design. Yes it provides all the bonuses it does RAW, but they have never picked one up, even when I made it available to them. They thought simply having one would really hurt their relationships with the more orthodox members of the Expanse and the Imperium.

 

In other words, purity triumphs, heretics cry, Imperium prevails.

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  • Starchart Collection (-1d5+5Days Warp Travel Time, Min. 1 day), 
  • Skittish ('Between Stars' travel time cut by 1d5 weeks, min. 1), 
  • RuneCaster - gain a +20 bonus to all Navigation Tests.   Additionally, any journeys made using this Component take half their normal time. 
  • Miloslav Warp Engines: Reduce the duration of all warp travel times by half,   but roll on the Warp Travel Encounters every 3 days instead of every 5. 


modifiers from Essential components happen first, then Supplementals, in descending order of speed increase. 

 

so your order would be like:

  • miloslav, runecaster, skittish, starchart

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