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How to kill Space Marines?

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Alright, you are a planetary governor who is planning to rebel against the Imperium. Specifically against the most recent tithe which has been increased significantly. Meeting it would mean your productive yet habitable world will be ruined and your people turned to virtual slaves. Since your population is on your side, you know that the Imperium can’t send an assassin to solve the problem as the next governor would just continue the rebellion. Sending an army or simply bombarding your from space would wreck the economy which would also not please the administratum.

So the most likely strategy used by the Imperium is to send Space Marines to bring you back into compliance. After 10,000 years, you are well aware of their tactics. They will hit your command centres, your planetary void shields, your AA batteries and missile silos and your power plants and try to make a bloody example while simultaneously destroying your means of successfully continuing your defiance.

You have almost 10 billion people which means you can easily raise 50 million troops with air assets and armour as needed from your own factories. You will likely face up to 500 space marines from a single chapter as multiple chapter assaults are rare and chapters only rarely use all their companies...

 

So how do you plan to defeat the Space Marines?

  • Surround each of these targets with a million men and fight a battle of attrition when the Space Marines come knocking?
  • Have these targets zeroed in by your own artillery and fire on them (preferably after having built your own assets to withstand your own guns) thereby killing the Space Marines who just landed there?
  • Create specialist Space Marine hunter teams with suitable weaponry (krak launchers, melta weapons etc.) just like WWII armies created tank hunter teams and seed thousands of them around the likely targets?
  • Instead of raising 50 million cannon fodder, raise just a million power armoured, bolt weapon armed soldiers (a la Sisters of Battle) and show the Space Marines how its done? Or maybe just a million carapace armoured soldiers with hellguns….
  • Bury them under your own dead and hope they suffocate after their air supply runs out?


In short, what would be the best way to withstand a planetary assault by Space Marines?
 

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ranoncles said:

Alright, you are a planetary governor who is planning to rebel against the Imperium. Specifically against the most recent tithe which has been increased significantly. Meeting it would mean your productive yet habitable world will be ruined and your people turned to virtual slaves. Since your population is on your side, you know that the Imperium can’t send an assassin to solve the problem as the next governor would just continue the rebellion. Sending an army or simply bombarding your from space would wreck the economy which would also not please the administratum.

So the most likely strategy used by the Imperium is to send Space Marines to bring you back into compliance. After 10,000 years, you are well aware of their tactics. They will hit your command centres, your planetary void shields, your AA batteries and missile silos and your power plants and try to make a bloody example while simultaneously destroying your means of successfully continuing your defiance.

You have almost 10 billion people which means you can easily raise 50 million troops with air assets and armour as needed from your own factories. You will likely face up to 500 space marines from a single chapter as multiple chapter assaults are rare and chapters only rarely use all their companies...

 

So how do you plan to defeat the Space Marines?

  • Surround each of these targets with a million men and fight a battle of attrition when the Space Marines come knocking?
  • Have these targets zeroed in by your own artillery and fire on them (preferably after having built your own assets to withstand your own guns) thereby killing the Space Marines who just landed there?
  • Create specialist Space Marine hunter teams with suitable weaponry (krak launchers, melta weapons etc.) just like WWII armies created tank hunter teams and seed thousands of them around the likely targets?
  • Instead of raising 50 million cannon fodder, raise just a million power armoured, bolt weapon armed soldiers (a la Sisters of Battle) and show the Space Marines how its done? Or maybe just a million carapace armoured soldiers with hellguns….
  • Bury them under your own dead and hope they suffocate after their air supply runs out?


In short, what would be the best way to withstand a planetary assault by Space Marines?
 

If I was a planetary governor with allthis stuff that you've mentioned this is how I would put up my plan to face the Imperial retribution in regards to the Space Marines. Now of course I would also make plans to face the massed Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard invasion that would follow the Space Marines' failure and so I would need to have that in mind as well.

First I'd plan from the fact that any bases on the surface or that were built by Imperials would be known by the Space Marines and thus become targets for their attacks. Thus if possible I would build new underground facilitations and perhaps try to move or replace the equipment in the bases that I would know would be targeted for destruction, to the new bases that can be more easily defended and which the Imperials hopefully don't already have the blueprints to.

I'd see what persons are really necessary to keep these things running and either make sure there are several replacements ready or arrange for lookalikes to confuse the Space Mariens to where the real target is. This very, very much goes for me and I wouldn't want to wait for the Space Marines without at least a dozen if not a hundred lookalikes that can drive around in fancy cars, conduct inspections, hold speeches etc. to confuse the Imperials to my location and make an assassination attempt all the less likely to succeed.

In terms of soldiers I would, with an Imperial Guard invasion in mind, put at least 2 billion people under arms and involve the rest of the population in the war effort because if we're going to make it, it will be through a total war. In regards to the Space Mariens I would probably just raise a few millions, maybe 10 or so, of anti-Space Marine troops. You might be a bit wondering why I would have so many soldiers but I must remind you that my troops will probably be moving around on the ground while the Space Marines will be able to strike pretty much where they want from orbit. If you've only got 1 million the odds are that they would be to few and in the wrong place to do anything when the Space Marines struck and then withdrew.

As to actual equipment and preperations that I would make is that I would make sure to have both Void Shields to protect myself from orbital bombardment and a massive anti-air and anti-space defenses ready. The Marines will be most vulnerable when they are coming down and so would also potential Imperial Guardsmen be and everyone that I can blow to hell in space or in the atmosphere would be an advantage to me and I could also possibly deny them the use of air support and make extraction a fair bit more annoying for them. Otherwise heavy weaponry is probably also important to have in amble supply as well as an air foce of my own to take on the enemy air power, allow me to make rapid redeployments regarding the Space Marines at least, and also give my men air support.

Now, my main plan would thus be this: with an extensive radar system I would be able to know where the enemy orbital ships are, when they launch drop pods or Thunderhawks for deployment, and with an extensive anti-air and anti-space set of defenses I hope that I might be able to take down one or two of these and thus kill some of the Marines before they can even reach the ground. The Void-shields would ensure that my stuff on the ground wouldn't simply be transformed into a giant crater by the Astartes' ships. Now when the enemy deploys they will be engaged by local defenses which they will no doubt overcome without much problem, but while they do so and with my radar system and air-power, I would be able to bring in my anti-Space Marine troops as well as overwhelming ammount of regular troops with heavy equipment. By this time the Astartes will likely have destroyed their targets but with a solid anti-air system I would recon that their extraction won't be so easy and that could give my time to surround and overwhelm the enemy.

After this has happened a few times I would hope those Space Marines would've learn their lesson and bugger off.

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Being able to produce weapons and armor...let alone power armour! for your troops requires having the factories on your side. And it requires having the Adeptus Mechanicus on your side, especially if the factories are keyed to produce something else. Only the AdMech can adjust a factory designed to make field radios into one that makes bolters.

The Adeptus Mechanicus will not be on your side in this.

Make sure you import what you need, because the AdMech will likely hole up in the factories with their Skitarii, or sabotage them once they realize you plan to turn them against the Imperium.

I think your best option will be to overwhelm with numbers. You won't have a million-strong guard with power armour. That stuff does not just sit around and it will be held by an Imperial asset, not a local asset. You won't be able to overcome Land Raiders with your own tanks, or Thunderhawks with Vulture gunships. You have to saturate them.

And don't discount the Imperial response. The Arbites and IG garrison on-planet will not just go gently. An assassin may kill the governor and ensure his replacement, but it will cost the rebellion time, and the assassin can also target other assets like your military leaders. Inquisitorial assets will sow discord in your underbelly and recruit from it. At least part of your population will rise up against you, because they know they're dead if they don't.

 

 

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Stopped reading at "well aware of their tactics."

That line alone is wrong on so many levels.

Of all the trillions of humans in the galaxy I'd say only about 0.0000001% of those alive at any one point a few thousand years after the heresy even knows them as anything other than a myth. Even less have actually met them and survived whatever horror led them to the meeting.

Even Imperial Governors are not likely to know much more than the common rabble. Such as, they really do exist but who, what, and where they really are is still a mystery. The likelyhood anyone outside of warmasters or Lord Generals leading billions of men in massive crusades knowing anything about their specific tactics is so rediculously low its laughable.

The Governor might know "rumours" his subjects have told concerning them over the years of how their assaults are unstoppable, or their armour is impregnable, or their weapons the most devestating. At best, if he thought these warriors would actually attack his forces he'd try to get as many big guns as he can to shoot at them in the hopes of killing them. He, nor his generals, wouldn't comprehend the effects of space marine warfare. Maneuver, distraction, precise applications of force, and specific objective driven engagements for instance. If they did, they'd probably use those tactics with their own forces.

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herichimo said:

Stopped reading at "well aware of their tactics."

That line alone is wrong on so many levels.

Of all the trillions of humans in the galaxy I'd say only about 0.0000001% of those alive at any one point a few thousand years after the heresy even knows them as anything other than a myth. Even less have actually met them and survived whatever horror led them to the meeting.

Even Imperial Governors are not likely to know much more than the common rabble. Such as, they really do exist but who, what, and where they really are is still a mystery. The likelyhood anyone outside of warmasters or Lord Generals leading billions of men in massive crusades knowing anything about their specific tactics is so rediculously low its laughable.

The Governor might know "rumours" his subjects have told concerning them over the years of how their assaults are unstoppable, or their armour is impregnable, or their weapons the most devestating. At best, if he thought these warriors would actually attack his forces he'd try to get as many big guns as he can to shoot at them in the hopes of killing them. He, nor his generals, wouldn't comprehend the effects of space marine warfare. Maneuver, distraction, precise applications of force, and specific objective driven engagements for instance. If they did, they'd probably use those tactics with their own forces.

 

Well, I suppose we'll have to disagree then. While many commoners may not know more than what you suggest, the common lore skills regarding war would provide ample information about Space Marine tactics to those with a military background. IG commanders would have extensive knowledge about SM's and their habit of ignoring comprehensive combined battle plans and executing lightning raids on high value targets. And that's ignoring the wealth of historical writings etc. which would likely be available to peers and nobles such as the campaigns of Macharius etc. At the very least, planetary defences would be configured to defend against both conventional invasions and visits by Traitor warbands....So I'd expect there would be a reasonable amount of knowledge floating around, even if only from survivors from other planets sacked by SM's.....YMMV.

 

 

 

 

 

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Interesting thread, but not worth starting an argument over. It basically comes down to this. You are both right. Some people might not have read the Codex, and some might have. Those people that have read it will have a significant insight into how the Astartes persecute a war.

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Hi,

I'm here to make a point.

Yes military leader knows about SM warfare, or think so...

Yes SM are schock troops falling from the sky with glorious anger and fury, they use drop pod and aircraft, they've got power armour and holy bolter, ...

Yes that is known.

But what tactics use the Raven Guard or any specific chapter is not.

More if they theoricaly know SM warfare they didn't about SM themself. My popint is you all know what is an eathquake, but only those who survive one know what it truly is.

All know what a nuclear bomb can make, everybody have seen picture but only a few know exactly what it is to be near one, and have the bad luck to survive.

To know something isn't be prepared or aware of what it truly is.

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If one assumes that the defending governor has some knowledge of SM tactics, I'd say the principle way to defeat/impede a full scale, chapter sized invasion would be as follows:-

1. Create a command structure with extensive redundancies. Each link in the chain of command is going to be attacked by the Marines, so create a net of command rather than a chain. Commanding officers and HQs will become high value targets, so plan accordingly, with multiple commanders , each able to act independently as communications collapse.

2. Go low tech for comms. Use runners to pass along heavily encrypted messages, not radio or electronic communication networks. In fact assume that all high tech communication networks will be both priority targets and that all comms will be interceptable, and plan accordingly.

3. Equip squads with at least two heavy or special weapons. Plasma, heavy las or Krak missiles.

4. Distribute strategic level weapons (nukes) as if they were candy to your armed forces, and advise them that they have carte blanche to use them. .

5. Assume that you - the Governor - are a walking dead man, and plan accordingly. You could try body doubles, a la Saddam Hussein, but as the chapter will presumably have access to powerful Librarians able to track you by your psychic profile, they'll probably locate you whatever you do. Therefore use yourself as bait to draw large concentrations of marines to you, and attack them there (with nukes - see below.) Ensure that your war can continue after your death.

6. Use suicide tactics. Draw marines strike squads to you, and detonate nukes under them. In fact, stop viewing your strategic assets (most powerful wepaons, command structures, cities etc) as assets, and instead view them as bait. 

6. As has already been mentioned, utilise subterranean facilities where possible to negate Astartes airbourne strike capacity. As the Astartes can teleport in, though, they probably aren't as advantageous as they appear, but you can at least control the nature of the ground upon which the combat takes place.

7. Build up a powerful airforce. It probably won't be able to stop the Astartes landing or getting through, but it might be able to prevent them escaping again. (If you're very lucky.)

8. Invest in orbital weapons platforms. They won't stop the battle barges, but they'll slow them down and inflict casualties. 

9. Invest in "second strike" planet-to-orbit weapons like defence lasers and missile silos. HIde them as best you can, and use them to cripple orbiting Astartes vessles, trapping the marines on the surface after they've landed. 

10. Avoid investing in any technologies that could actually destroy the planet. The Marines will take them off you and use them against you. (As the Carcharadons did on Badab with the hive-sinks.)

11. Hire xenos mercs. Some of them, like the Kroot, can be useful against the Astartes, and are unlikely to try and overthrow you after the war ends.    

12. Avoid expensive defence monitors. They'll not be much use, to be honest. They'll be hugely expensive and they'll be rapidly disabled by marine ships, which wil massively outclass them.     

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13.  Scam some allies. The Ad Mech, Ecclesiarchy, Arbites and the like won't raise arms against the Astartes... unless they're convinced something is wrong. "Fabricator! The Astartes are here to steal relics they believe belong to their chapter!" "Cardinal! The Astartes are here because they believe your preaching is Heresy and they're going to wipe us out because of it!" - Your Governor cannot do this without the direct aid of the more powerful factions of the Imperium backing them up... so they'll need to work out some way to get them on side.

 

Besides, having the characters come up against an enraged fabricator of the local forge and finding that against this half machine thing they need to use diplomacy, cause it can remotely shut down power armour (or the like, have fun with the tech-arcana that an angry high ranking ad mech NPC can bring to the table), is awesome. When weapons are useless, even Astartes have to talk people down.

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I have actually, through the course of my convoluted life, had to come up with workable plans of this nature. While this specific scenario is a new one the same rules do apply.

 

OVERVIEW:

-You are the leader of the world who is about to incur the wrath of the Imperium and the forces of Him on Earth. You have reason to believe His retribution will be spearheaded by the Astartes. Your planet has a population in the mid billions. Your planet has only recently seceded from the Imperium.

 

 

ASSUMPTIONS:

-The planet is largely habitable with relatively few natural choke points and/or areas normally impassible (excessive mountain ranges, gigantic bogs, etc...).

-The planet is self sufficient. All resources required are either able to be grown/mined/fabricated locally, or significant stocks (years or more) already exist.

-The population of the world is on your side, as well as the majority are agnostic and/or otherwise not faithful to Him on Earth.

-The planet possesses significant travel infrastructure; roads, rails and the like. At least the equivalent to 1950's Earth.

-The planet possesses significant production capacity, though not likely anything near a true Forge World (see complications), enough that it can produce it's own arms and fortifications (which likely do not exist yet) and continue to supply them during a conflict. Additionally, this production capacity exist WITHOUT a significant Adeptus Mechanicus presence, unlikely, but not totally unheard of in the Imperium.

-The planet's population already enjoys a higher than normal wide spread technology level, higher than normal for the Imperium. EX: The average person has access too and already knows how to use AT LEAST as much, and as many different types, of technology as the average 1950's American citizen.

-The planet's secession has already been fully successful and the succession was relatively bloodless, leving the vast majority of the infrastructure and production capacity intact.

-The government of the planet (You) has come into possession of an authentic copy of the Codex Astartes, perhaps as a relic from seized from the Ecclesiarchy, and have studied it throughly. You are well aware of the capabilities of the average Astartes as well as their normal modes of combat.

-You have an unknown quantity of time before the Imperial reply arrives. But it will likely be at least six months, if not a year or two, before an effective response can be assembled.

 

 

 

COMPLICATIONS:

-Space forces: Your planet has next to no chance of preventing the Astartes from achieving total space superiority. It is highly unlikely your planet possessed the space docks needed to build ships of the line. The same goes for any armed orbital station your world possesses. Even on the unlikely chance your world is heavily defended from orbit, the defenses and ships are most likely geared to ward off pirates and minor raids (see below), While Astartes ships are purpose built for situations like the ones will encounter in your system.

-It is highly unlikely your world will have significant production (Forge World level) or already be powerfully defended. Any world important to require the upkeep these defenses would require would almost certainly already have a significant Imperial presence, precluding the successful secession of the world with infrastructure and production capacity intact.

-If your world is a normal Imperial world, it likely has an entrenched nobility/other ruling class. They will be very resistant to any major change, and will likely pose a serious problem to the changes required to fend off Him on Earth's response to your secession. They will likely insist on being in charge of several vital areas (generals, ship captains, defense planners) even if there are obviously better qualified persons to fill those slots. (If you think for a moment that just ignoring the upper tiers of society is a possibility, you have obviously never dealt with real world aristo's, much less the those Imperial society produces)

-You must accept that whatever you try, the Astartes will very likely be better at it. Siege warfare, mobile battles, space combat, even straight up fistfights. Those in charge of the chapter are centuries, possibly tens of centuries, old and have encountered situations which your planners likely not even DREAMED of.

-No matter what you do, no matter what happens, no matter what you try to secure victory, the infrastructure of your world MUST remain intact. Otherwise what is the point of even trying to resist?

-You do not know which chapter will respond first. Different chapters fight in different ways, and different leaders in the same chapter even more so. The best information you will have access to can only be read as a rough guide as to what will happen when the invasion does come. If you spend all your resources to set up defenses to resist a protracted siege and protect your leadership, all of that effort is waisted if the Astartes simply blow up your power stations, torch your farmlands and then leave to let your population starve to death in the dark.

-You likely have no nukes. Sorry, but 40k downplays nuclear power, atomic weapons essentially do not exist, and the use of the few that do, for any reason, is heavily frowned upon.

-Shelling your own troops and/or tons of high explosives to be detonated under fighting positions as soon as the Astartes land is a horrible idea. There is NO faster way to get your troops to turn on you than doing this, and there is no way to keep this secret if you do it on the large scale required for it to be effective. Remember, it could be months or even years before the Astartes' response comes. If you want to win you have to keep moral up and (more importantly) the troop's loyalty to you if you wish to have a chance to win.

 

 

 

Strategies:

-Quantity has a quality all it's own: The battle is going to be brutal, it is going to be bloody, and your only real advantage over the Astartes are your numbers, both in bodies and equipment. Make sure you have excessive amounts of both.

-Mass conscription, but well trained and well treated: As a caveat to the last point, not only do you need large numbers, but they need to be well treated. You must keep the moral and loyalty of your forces up until the Astartes arrive, otherwise your forces will just walk off  the field before the first shot is fired.

-Spread everything out: Give the Astartes more important targets around your planet than they have battle groups to deploy. Whichever targets they hit first will (hopefully) let you know which parts of the codex the commander is employing against you, as well as how closely the chapter is following the codex. Possession of that information may allow you to plan a counter strategy.

-Place equipment in caches ahead of time: If the population is against you this is a recipe for disaster, but it will ensure that no matter how hard your supplies get hit you will always have resources to fall back on.

-Plan on losing: As backwards as this sounds, it's true. Anything the Astartes want to take or destroy on your world, no matter how well you defend it, they will. So plan accordingly, ensure that strongholds have escape routes, ensure that no one area is vital to your entire defense.

-Fortify everything: Power stations and supply stations should be within fortresses, cities should be liberally sprinkled with fortifications towns should be walled if possible. Everything you defend is one more thing they need to expend resources to take.

-Make them come to you: With the Astartes in possession of total space superiority, any significant reply you make from any staging point will possibly come under bombardment. Any movement you make will either have to be underground (impossible in the large scale) or small enough as not to be worth attacking from orbit.

-Cross train your troops: Combat losses will be overwhelmingly disproportionate and favoring the Astartes. Your units committed to combat will likely be destroyed in short order. In order for you to continue fighting you need your troops to be able to form ad hoc units as well as to be used to serving under different leaders at the drop of a hat. Without training like this your formations will cease to be combat effective almost instantly upon engagement, as well as you will have no control over an area the Astartes have already been.

-Build fortifications that mean nothing, but tell everyone how important they are: Build a massive fortress at the intersection of two important highways (that you don't plan on using for strategic redeployment of forces) and defend it to the death. Build a huge fortification on a polar tundra, staff it with a hundred thousand of your best trained and best equipped troops, make it the headquarters for your royal guard, call it impregnable, make it the center of your government shown around the world with huge amounts of pomp and ceremony... And then simply don't be there. Even if the Astartes' losses taking these useless fortification are limited to ammo and stress fatigue on their equipment, you are still able to afford whatever losses you suffer defending these useless locations, they can't.

 

 

 

There you have it. This might not allow you to win, you might not even survive, but you can sure as hell bet you are going to make the Astartes PAY for setting foot on your world.

-Dabat

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DJSunhammer said:

Interesting thread, but not worth starting an argument over. It basically comes down to this. You are both right. Some people might not have read the Codex, and some might have. Those people that have read it will have a significant insight into how the Astartes persecute a war.

Not to mention a hightened fear of reprisal from the Adeptus Arbrites for owning a proscribed text.

But hey, its AWWWRIIGHT!!!

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I got the impression that it was the Imperial Guard that did most of the fighting done in the Imperium and that the Space Marines are used for very very specialized assaults/missions.

Wouldn't it be more likely that Arbiter might put a stop to it first?  Either by enlisting the aid of those still loyal to the Emperor or any Rogue Trader and his troops to re-take the planet in the name of the Emperor?

 

Having failed that the Inquisition could view the leaders as Heretics and send in the assassins - after the first charismatic valiant Leaders are made examples of, who would be stupid enough to stand up next?

 

Okay, that didn't work.  Wouldn't the question then become do we really still nead this planet or would this planet be put to better use by having the planet destroyed?  Exterminatus is the ultimate threat and warning to take  heed of the Imperium.

 

Let's say that they have to retake the planet: Imperial Guard.  When that doesn't work, more Imperial Guard this time supported by the Space Marines (as special forces).

 

Space Marines are just too valuable and rare a commodity to throw into a meat grinder.

 

As for understanding  Space Marines and how they fight? Um, um...  Okay no one outside their chapter's would know their combat doctrine.  Most of the fiction I have read for the Warhammer 40K universe place space marines as more myth than fiction for planets that have been loyal for centuries.  Heck most of the population of this universe are a superstious lot and are un-educated past their immedaite lifestyles.  Space Marines are considered to be "death angels" and for many could literally think of space marines as such.

 

Literature/data slates/etc... would be rare and may not be very accurate

 

If this was a Forge World wouldn't Adaptus Mechanicus use their own soldiers and Titans?

 

In my opinion, your view of the 40k universe is differebt from the published material to date to my knowledge.  Not saying you can't have it your way but it doesn't quite fit the 40k vibe, but hey it's your game.

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Ok, there's a lot of people who think that you are a dead man walking if the Space Marines would show up in your system. I don't think that the Space Marines are THAT powerful but I agree that a Space Marine Chapter, or half a Chapter, would be able to smash a generic rebel world into splinters and then let the Imperial Guard come and mob up the disorganized and demoralized masses of enemy soliders and civilians, even if I think that a well prepered world would have at least a fighting chance to make the Space Marines take enough losses to withdraw.

 

Darck Child said:

I got the impression that it was the Imperial Guard that did most of the fighting done in the Imperium and that the Space Marines are used for very very specialized assaults/missions.

That's kind of how I understood it as well.

 

Darck Child said:

Wouldn't it be more likely that Arbiter might put a stop to it first?  Either by enlisting the aid of those still loyal to the Emperor or any Rogue Trader and his troops to re-take the planet in the name of the Emperor?

Yeah the Adeptus Terra would be the first line of resistance for any separatists but they could be overwhelmed with numbers if the entire planet want to go their own way. Specifically if the PDF has joined the rebels.

 Darck Child said:

Having failed that the Inquisition could view the leaders as Heretics and send in the assassins - after the first charismatic valiant Leaders are made examples of, who would be stupid enough to stand up next?

Sounds like a workable plan.

 Darck Child said:

Okay, that didn't work.  Wouldn't the question then become do we really still nead this planet or would this planet be put to better use by having the planet destroyed?  Exterminatus is the ultimate threat and warning to take  heed of the Imperium.

I don't think the Imperium would blow up a planet just yet. I my mind GW's fluff has been far to generous with Exterminatus for rather trivial reasons for me to really buy it. Both considering that an Exterminatus destroyes a planet entirely thus making it impossible to reconquer and thus weakening the Imperium in the long run as well as with the limited lines of communication between planets and Exterminatus might actually go pretty unnoticed.

I would say that unless they really, really, really MUST destroy the planet to prevent some horrific greater damage the Imperium will get itself ready to re-take it.

But maybe that's just me.

 Darck Child said:

Let's say that they have to retake the planet: Imperial Guard.  When that doesn't work, more Imperial Guard this time supported by the Space Marines (as special forces).

I agree although the Space Marines can arrive early to begin softing up the opposition for the main IG attack.

 Darck Child said:

Space Marines are just too valuable and rare a commodity to throw into a meat grinder.

While true that Space Marines are not to be thrown away it would also be a waste to not use them. To kick the crap out of a rebel planet and so bring it back into the Emperor's fold don't sound like much of a waste or a meat grinder to me though.

 Darck Child said:

As for understanding  Space Marines and how they fight? Um, um...  Okay no one outside their chapter's would know their combat doctrine.  Most of the fiction I have read for the Warhammer 40K universe place space marines as more myth than fiction for planets that have been loyal for centuries.  Heck most of the population of this universe are a superstious lot and are un-educated past their immedaite lifestyles.  Space Marines are considered to be "death angels" and for many could literally think of space marines as such.

I agree.

 Darck Child said:

Literature/data slates/etc... would be rare and may not be very accurate

I agree again.

 Darck Child said:

If this was a Forge World wouldn't Adaptus Mechanicus use their own soldiers and Titans?

Probably. They wouldn't want some "random idiots" to go around and destroying valuable equipment and holy objects of reverence for them.

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I think the original poster missed an important point that is mentioned many times throughout the books. The psychological effect on a human being of a transhuman (space marine) killing, butchering, maiming other humans is significant. You could take an army of Chuck Norrises and they're still only human. A Space Marine can pop a human skull without effort.

The other part where this all falls apart is, what Space Marine chapter, no matter how barbaric or wild, would be stupid enough to fight an army of millions with artillery, powered armor, heavy weapons, etc. ? I've got the answer. None. Space Marines aren't designed for fighting line wars, not even really when they were hundreds of thousands strong. They WILL find the enemy leadership and they will kill them. You are underestimating an ultimately elite special forces team that is faster, smarter, stronger and better armed than any army.

Last point?

A drop-pod with a Dreadnought in it.

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i think this thread was a request for aid, not the opening salvo of a debate...perhaps instead of slamming the concept, which is sound, why not just help out?  The op wants to know how a well-equipped, well-informed planet could defend itself against space marine assault....this shouldn't be a debate on the merits of said proposition....

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Zappiel said:

i think this thread was a request for aid, not the opening salvo of a debate...perhaps instead of slamming the concept, which is sound, why not just help out?  The op wants to know how a well-equipped, well-informed planet could defend itself against space marine assault....this shouldn't be a debate on the merits of said proposition....

 

I'm intresred to hear your thoughts?

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Look I'm all for taking your own spin of the Warhammer 40K universe.  From the original question posed by ranoncles he/she has already answered it himself/herself.  It's a numbers game. No matter how good or well equiped the Space Marines are they will eventuallly be overwhelmed specially in a straight up fight.

 

The time period is questionable for the level of tech and free thinking this planet has from brief knowldge of this setting stems from before the Emperor sat on his golden throne.  If that's the case the Space Marines didn't have the same restrictions as presented in current setting.

Considering that most of the fluff I have read usually has an introduction that looks a lot like this:

"For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor has sat immobile in the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of Mankind by the will of the gods and the master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lod of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls die every day, for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten.
Human blood and human flesh - the stuff of which the Imperium is made. To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of those times. It is a universe you can live in today - if you dare - for this is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort or hope. If you want to take part in the adventure then prepare yourself now. Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods. But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed... In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."


Also, I get from the "fluff" that most planets have a single focus and usually dependent on others for their continued ability to produce. This dependancy usually stems on food, natural resources, etc...  "This" planet ranocles proposes seems too good to be true - self-sustaining, high tech, and very liberal and opened minded population.  Which goes against the current settings.

ranocles never actually stated what this planet actually produced because whatever they do produce is going to become a pivotal point on how the Imperium is goint to try to take it back in such a way that doesn't damage the end product or the way to make said product.

Maybe if the planet has a habbit of being cut off from the Imperium by warp storms and that why the tithe is unusually high due to the fact that whatever they produce must be delivered, if not on a regular time table then whenever the time permits between storms.

I can envision a radical/heretical Governor that would take the stance that ranocles wants. But in the Grim Dark future the people just aren't that nice - while it could happen, I... I... just don't see it.  There are bound to be individuals, or power groups that once they learned what the planetary Govenor plans wouldn't stand for it let alone the whole population.

Let's be clear about this this Governor and the ENTIRE POPULATION is about to say no the THE Emperor and his agents...  It's called Heresy in the Grim Dark future.  And if the WHOLE planet has been "corrupted" then as I said in my earlier post - exterminatus is one very possible outcome to this problem.  No resource would be so important enough to allow something like this to spread to other planets.

What did the Governor do the agents of the Adaptus Administratum after he/she learns that the planetary tithes are now unreasonable?

With no further contact with the agents of the Adaptus Administratum and no tithes, the next agents that most likely to show up would be from the Adaptus Arbites.

No tithes, no contacts from the agents of the Adaptus Administratum or Arbites would then escalate things to the Inquistion, Imperial Guard or the Space Marines. One of them or a combination of all three, take your pick.

If you want to give the planet more time you could do it in order: Inquistion, then Imperial Guard, and then the Space Marines.

When the Inquisiton gets involved the assassinations of key people would be the most likely course of action - depending on the Inquisitor the final verdict could be Exterminatus. Or maybe bring in the Imperial Guard.

For the moment let's skip both the Inquistion and the Imperial Guard and focus on the Space Marines. They will arrive by ship/fortress. What does "this" planet have for an Orbital defenses or planet to orbit defenses?  Has the Governor seized/duped/bought any pirates or Rogue Traders? The reason I mentioned earlier warp storms that could be a reason why the ship/fortress couldn't remain in orbit to support any Space Marine invaison. Mostly likelybefore they send in the marines they would scan the planet for key targets and probably key drop zones for resupply or evac.  Then drop pods and thunder hawks are launched...

So going back to the original question how would you prep for such an attack?  If were talking Grim Dark here then not much. Depending on what they produce, the planet may not have the ability to produce weaponry or fortifications to defend themselves past whatever they have for a Planetary Defense Force.  The PDF equipment could be limited or even out of date.  The ability to convert the factories to a produce stuff for war may not be an option...

Unless the factories and cities/hives/etc.. are underground or underwater planetary bombardment prior to sending in the Marines IS going to happen.  While they won't target the factories or the "product", they are going to bombard the civilian population in attempts to break the moral of the citizens.

As long as the population are armed with more than primitive weapons and the Marines are cut off from getting resupply and no way of the planet - the Marines will lose eventually...

There are really too many "if's" here in this equation...

As for the Governor and the PDF understanding Space Marine Doctrine, I severly doubt it.

Additional things to make things difficult for the invaiding force: alliances with pirates with space ships or allied Rogue Traders, renegade Space Marines, unsanctioned Pykers or sorcerer, xenos, an artifact, alliance to the Dark Gods/Chaos or whatever else you can think of.

When the Space Marines fail as you are setting them up for, what's next?  It's highly unlikely this planet will go unpunnished. The second Imperial forces to arrive will do one of two things send in enough forces to capture the planet at all costs or destroy it...

 

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Based on my assumptions and with the outcome that planet can not hold out against the might of the Imperium for long wouldn't be better to have a ruined planet and enslaved population then having nothing?

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I'm more than curious to know where the planet is located?

How often does the Empire collect it tithe?

What method did the Governor use to declare his/her planet's independance?

 

All this would also help the comminity give better answers to the original question.  The response from Terra could be anwhere from hours to never.

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Zappiel said:

i think this thread was a request for aid, not the opening salvo of a debate...perhaps instead of slamming the concept, which is sound, why not just help out?  The op wants to know how a well-equipped, well-informed planet could defend itself against space marine assault....this shouldn't be a debate on the merits of said proposition....

I don't think anything is served by all of us putting on our Mary Sue fanclub badges and playing yes-men to OP's question.

Of course it should be a debate on the merits of said proposition, because the proposition is trying to keep freaking Space Marines from invading your planet! Because there are very few merits to that situation, and even a single Chapter is capable of bringing an entire industrialized world of billions to its knees. Because Space Marines.

That said, I've got to run shortly, so I'll just leave my opinion on the matter as such. Dabat pretty much nailed the issue with his exhaustive post, detailing all the variables that need to be tallied when planning to make any effort of defending your world against Space Marines.. or rather, Imperial Reprisal in general (it's a little presumptuous to expect it to be Space Marines, and only Space Marines).

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 I think the effect of the SM's naval battlegroup is underestimated. Using BFG (Since RT doesn't specifically address SM vessels); Transporting half a chapter (5 Companies) would require 1 Battlebarge (A not insignificant Battleship in BFG), 2 Strike cruisers and their assorted escorts (Normally between 6-10 Frigates/Destroyers). This is a force that even Karrad Vaul (A major Chaos lord from RT) could not easily stop based on stats given in the "Fallen Suns" supplement. Furthermore; The Battle barge carries it's own Exterminatus weapon array above and beyond it's Massive firepower (Which is specifically designed primarily for Orbital bombardment BTW)! It is this Naval force that serves as the SM's answer to massed "Human wave" type attacks. A single Strike cruiser (A light cruiser class vessel) could easily Obliterate whole Battalions using the rules found in Battlefleet koronus! The good news is that if the fleet can't get there neither can the Space Marines or for that matter most  Imperial forces so a "convenient" warp storm would be your friend here but would also cut you off from the rest of the Galaxy. An alternate method might be not to fight the Astartes at all! The Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes are not required to participate in any battle! They are requested by appropriate authority and choose whether or not to participate. If your governor could convince the SM Chapter master or Battleforce commander that a small faction of heretical administratum officials were trying to force an otherwise "Loyalist" world into heresy the Marines might choose to "Sit this one out" or (best case) conduct their own 'Investigation' into this Administratum edict. Before anyone flames me: If you read the 40k fluff, all of this is well within the Chapter master's purview (And is even a likely response from either the Raven guard or the Ultramarines given their histories!)! If the best case scenario were to play out your Governor might find Himself fighting alongside of the Astartes rather than against them!cool.gif

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That's only going to work if the Space Marine your governor is a complete idiot. Like, the Space Marine they give special foam Bolt rounds too, because they're actually concerned he might hurt somebody.

And just how is the Governor going to explain his entire planet being in revolt as being the fault of renegade Administratum officials, WHEN HIS ENTIRE PLANET IS IN REVOLT? At that point, a lot of Space Marines aren't going to care, as you're still revolting against the rightful rule of Him on Earth, breaching the Pax Imperium. One way or another, you deserve only ignominious death.

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Blood Pact said:

That's only going to work if the Space Marine your governor is a complete idiot. Like, the Space Marine they give special foam Bolt rounds too, because they're actually concerned he might hurt somebody.

And just how is the Governor going to explain his entire planet being in revolt as being the fault of renegade Administratum officials, WHEN HIS ENTIRE PLANET IS IN REVOLT? At that point, a lot of Space Marines aren't going to care, as you're still revolting against the rightful rule of Him on Earth, breaching the Pax Imperium. One way or another, you deserve only ignominious death.

Actually, being Governor of a world that has rebelled around you is arguably worse for your long-term survival - leading your world into a state of secession marks you as a traitor, which is grounds for execution when they catch you, which will likely be towards the end of the rebellion (giving you opportunities to escape retribution). Being the last loyal man on a world of traitors... when you used to be in charge, that's a crime and will invariably result in the Adeptus Arbites (who are just as concerned with watching the ruling class as the horde of menials below) judging you guilty of "failure to perform one's Throne-given duty"... and executing you immediately before taking charge themselves and instituting Martial Law until such a time as peace has been restored and the Emperor's Just and Righteous Rule can be re-established.

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