EoD (Edge of Darkness) Enemies are too Hard...? Opinions please.

Jeans_Stealer · March 16, 2012

Customary start. My questions relate to the enemies your players will face.

+++++SPOILERS++++++
Basically... the enemies. Are these really enemies a lvl 1 can face? A group of 5-6 could certainly do it, but 4? Humm. The enforcers (with which fighting is not recommended) need 8 points inflicting to cause 1 wound, and prim weapons don't stand a chance. I assume that these guys, who in one salvo can cleanse a PC from the face of the game, are meant to be a 'attack only in small numbers' kind of opponent? My players will want man-stoppers to take them down, and the game doesn't really give lee-way for man-stoppers - there's simply no-one around who has them! I don't really want to break that to the PCs, and I rather like the 'enforcers' the way they are without nerfing them... but I suppose I could make Man-stoppers available? (And mono weapons, for that matter.)

Now, the rest I don't mind, except for The Bodysnatchers: are they too hard? Is their natural weapon supposed to NOT be a natural weapon? I’m treating their full move as 4, and their attacks as a primitive natural weapon, and it takes a weight of modern weapons-fire to bring them down. Now I've had bad experiences with armoured opponents in the past, but for level 1's is this about right?

I’m just... curious. It’s my first campaign that seems to be going well, and these opponents seem a challenge, I just want other's opinions. How did you change EoD, if at all? Did you feel the opposition was TOO much of a challenge?

Saldre · March 16, 2012

Hey hey!

I am going to say no- not at all. In fact, things are actually a bit too weak!

Granted, my players didn't fight the Enforcers, you'd be surprised at what they can get at the right if they work together.

By himself, the assassin was able to afford a mono-great weapon. He's been one-shoting almost everything since then.

Now the body snatchers, without a doubt, need a boost and not a nerf. The humonculie too... My players ended destroying these guys.

Now keep in mind its a Roll-playing game as well, so depending on how lucky they are the monsters may be easier or harder.

There are several ways you can handle this, depending on your players- from the Chirurgeon sending out better, improved models as the nights and days go on, or simply upgrading them from the start but giving them directives to kidnap not kill and retreat if they meet too much resistance.

As for the enforcers- Luntz' blades and minions can even the tide of battle if the players find themselves in too deep with these guys. But truth be told, unless the players really screw up- or you feel deviously evil, they should not encounter the entire army of Enforcers: most of these guys are too busy defending the Enforcer headquarters and they will retreat with Mordan if things at the Alms House go bad.

Edit- to answer your questions: if I were to play again, I would make the monsters stronger. And stress the passage of time too- my players managed to finish it in a day and a half, but that was my fault: I let them do too much in a single day.

Jeans_Stealer · March 19, 2012

so, they're not hard enough? (the body snatchers?) huh.

So you didn't have to give the PCs access to man stoppers or mono-edging? I know they can pick up some awesome stuff from a dead Moran, or an enforcer who's dead...

I basically have an autogunner assassin, a psyker with an auto pistol, an adept with a stub-pistol and mono sword and a techpriest with a steelburner. they all had to gang up on one and it took a full auto burst at point blank to smoke him - my concerns are if they face four of them (as proposed in the notes) alongside a plainclothes enforcer. can they inflict the 56 wounds necessary? well... they only really have to inflict 28-30 before the heretek creations fall back I suppose, and the gangers can intervene... So 1d10+5 CC damage (modern) is not too much for 4x lvl 2 PC's to take? some of them only have 8 wounds... I think I'm worried because I don't have 4 killers, I have 4 role-players who are all a bit down on certain capabilities.

If they come accross enforcers they couldn't hurt them with primitive weapons if they tried, they need mono or gunfire, and getting 8 from 1D10+2 can be difficult sometimes. They've been talking about getting man-stoppers but their worried it's not available (which it's not.)

Next question... torches. wtf? so... bonuses to perception / awareness tests, or simply 'you can see this far?'

Darth Smeg · March 19, 2012

Then fudge it!

In my experience I constantly underestimate my players capabilities, and they tend to wipe the opposition out without breaking a sweat.

But if you're worried about the opposite problem, my advice is: don't!

You can simply cheat if they appear to be in too much trouble. After all, the players don't know how many wounds the bad guys have, so at a dramatically appropriate moment (when the players have taken a sound beating, and appear to be losing), have the bad guys flee. Who cares if they still had lots of wounds on paper, the truth is what you say it is

And if all else fails, that's why the PCs have Fate Points. They exist to be used and burnt after all, and you can always cook up an excuse to hand out more if the PCs are approaching 0 and death

Jeans_Stealer · March 20, 2012

You know... That's all very true.

...but my first DMing experience was a lesson in entering a death-spin wearing paper aeroplanes as a parachute. If anyone has to burn a fate point in the second session of EoD I'm simply wondering what is going on, and what the DM has been doing to players.

I agree I can 'fudge it' but I'd rather it was just 'right' to begin with. Underestimating my players... yeah agreed. I simply won't know what they're capable of until I throw it at them. Still, a bodysnatcher with an advanced natural weapon is a one-shot character killer at 1D10 + 5, surely?

Anyway this question again... torches. wtf? so... bonuses to perception / awareness tests, or simply 'you can see this far?'

Darth Smeg · March 20, 2012

1D10+5 is not so bad. It will do 10-11 pts of damage on average, from which you subtract the targets TB (usually 3-4) and AP from armour worn (again, 3-4 for readily available armours). So a successful hit may well cause around 2-5 Wounds in actual damage. Again, on average.

Melee fighters have an option of Parrying, and combat oriented characters will probably have Dodge. Both allow a test to completely negate all damage.

As even the most puny starting characters will have around 8 Wounds, and can survive a few pts of Critical damage, you will most likely NOT see one-shots here. You might see some pain and punishment, but it should be manageable.

As for torches, check out the section on Lighting on p216. Darkness imposes penalties on observation tests, and movement, and a torch will cancel these penalties within its radius of effect.

Jeans_Stealer · March 20, 2012

Ah so if it comes down to who the thing goes for, make sure they've got armour on. 5 wounds is pretty bad if it gets 2 hits in (unlikely) but in EoD obviously you want them to be ready for the final fight against The Chieurgeon, so I may stick with Natural weapon (primitive) for the Bodysnatchers.

Humm. Not AS bad as I thought I suppose, but still... 1 auto-rifle toting fighter, an autopistol toting psyker, a mono-sword/stub-revolver wielding adept and a steel-burner wielding techpriest... Humm. I must be thinking too small, They likely can handle it. I made such a mess of my first campaign that I don't trust what I pit them against any more.

Ah so lighting. Dang. That clears it up I suppose, if the DM assigns a distance to lamps, globes and torch beams, then those areas are bright, and everything else is darkness, depending on the lighting anyway - this covers the penalties in combat too. However, if you're using a torch, it can only really light up the area you're pointing it at, right? or 45degress or something like that?

New question... firing into Combat, by being in combat too. By my reading, autopistols can be fired full auto at an opponent you and someone else outnumber 2-to-1, with a -20 modifier for not hitting your own dude, and a +10 for outnumbering, +20 for full auto. depending on what kind of DM you are... decides whether or not they'll shoot their friend by accident.

Darth Smeg · March 20, 2012

This game is all about modifiers. And they can add up fairly quickly. But there also some limitations to be aware of, some which are added in the Errata (read it!) others that are handled through Rules Questions to the developers, answered here on the forums.

To clear up a few of those right away: The bonuses for outnumbering opponents only apply to melee attacks. You get no bonuses for shooting at someone just because someone else is also shooting at him (p198/199 specifies WS tests)

Shooting into a melee, where you are trying to hit the bad guy and at the same time avoiding hitting your friends, is Hard (-20 to BS). Worse, if you miss or use auto-fire there is a chance you will hit your friends instead.(see p196).

If you're in melee yourself, you may only fire Pistol weapons (no rifles, etc), and you may only fire single shots. Range modifers do not apply (ie, no +30 for Point Blank even if you are closer than 3 m).

So if the bodysnatcher is on you, waving his nasty arms around, it's single-shots only with the autopistol, with no bonus/penalty to the BS test. (You're not shooting INTO the melee, you're close enough to avoid hitting your friends).

Your autogun-toting Acolyte would want to lay down Full Auto fire against the approaching enemy, which at Close range (<45m) would be a BS+30 test. (remember to apply penalites too: If the Snatchers are running they are harder to hit, darkness similarly give penalties to hit. Once the snatchers engange his allies in melee, he might change to making Aimed Single Shots, which at Close range would be BS+20. This cancels the penalty for shooting into melee, but the chance to hit your friend is still there.

As for the torches, remember you need a hand to hold them in, which means no Basic weapons or two-weapon combos.

Darth Smeg · March 20, 2012

Just thought I'd point out that by the DH rules, Auto Fire is a killer.

A semi-profficient shooter with 35 BS will on average score 2-3 hits with Full Auto Bursts at Close Range (<45m with an Autogun) with every attack. Each of these will do 1d10+3 damage, which averages at 8-9. Reduce for average TB at 3, and you're still dealing between 10 and 18 DMG to an unarmoured target, every round.

Some rounds you'll miss, others you will hit with more hits, but on average you're still dealing significant damage.

The maths:

Full Auto (+20) at Close Range (+10) with BS 35 = 65. Of 10 Attacks you mill miss 3, and hit with 7. The 7 hits will with a flat distribution of results score 0,1,2,3...6 Degrees of Success, each adding 1 Hit to the 1 granted by the "Simple" success of the test.

(Not quite true for 10 Attacks, but for values over 30 you should see pretty flat distributions across the range of possible results. I'll assume even distribution for simplicitys sake)

Ie your 10 Attacks will result in:

3 misses
1 hit with 1 shot
1 hit with 2 shots
1 hit with 3 shots
1 hit with 4 shots
1 hit with 5 shots
1 hit with 6 shots
1 hit with 7 shots

This adds up to 28 hits, over 10 Attacks.

Now watch your bad guys blown to pieces as your Acolytes start wielding 2 Autopistols and blast away at full auto

Jeans_Stealer · March 21, 2012

This game is all about modifiers. And they can add up fairly quickly. But there also some limitations to be aware of, some which are added in the Errata (read it!) others that are handled through Rules Questions to the developers, answered here on the forums.

- Have read the Errata. I read it repeatedly and routinely as it clears up a lot of stuff that i miss. My Players don't...

To clear up a few of those right away: The bonuses for outnumbering opponents only apply to melee attacks. You get no bonuses for shooting at someone just because someone else is also shooting at him (p198/199 specifies WS tests)

- agreed, checked, covered. Thank you!

Shooting into a melee, where you are trying to hit the bad guy and at the same time avoiding hitting your friends, is Hard (-20 to BS). Worse, if you miss or use auto-fire there is a chance you will hit your friends instead.(see p196).

-I'm really starting to agree with this, I'm seeing so much Auto-fire in CC I don't like it. This will change for me.

If you're in melee yourself, you may only fire Pistol weapons (no rifles, etc), and you may only fire single shots. Range modifers do not apply (ie, no +30 for Point Blank even if you are closer than 3 m).

- agreed, i confirmed this 'pistol only' with the book. The single shot thing though... I dunno, I can see people seeing that a full action blasting away is what they want to do. They'll likely hit their mates instead. i knew about the modifiers though, which is something. Full actions such as defensive stance or guarded attack... surely full autobursts require (potentially) less concentration than those actions.

So if the bodysnatcher is on you, waving his nasty arms around, it's single-shots only with the autopistol, with no bonus/penalty to the BS test. (You're not shooting INTO the melee, you're close enough to avoid hitting your friends).

-hey if this player wants to blaze away, let him hit his friend, he should realise the danger! agreed though, no bonus (the full-auto bonus only, if I continue to allow auto in combat. I may have to do so just so that the psyker feels useful.)

Your autogun-toting Acolyte would want to lay down Full Auto fire against the approaching enemy, which at Close range (<45m) would be a BS+30 test. (remember to apply penalites too: If the Snatchers are running they are harder to hit, darkness similarly give penalties to hit. Once the snatchers engange his allies in melee, he might change to making Aimed Single Shots, which at Close range would be BS+20. This cancels the penalty for shooting into melee, but the chance to hit your friend is still there.

-bodysnatchers can't run strange as it is! the darkness though... they only engaged their opponents inside the glow-globe's radius, so no darkness penalties so far, but I remember the -30(BS) or -20(WS) etc.

As for the torches, remember you need a hand to hold them in, which means no Basic weapons or two-weapon combos.

isn't it -20 for using a basic weapon in one hand? (pg127) but I agree about the other stuff. I suppose the torches 'see 45deg in front of you up to 12 metres' is up to the DM then. Globes are easier, 360 degree clarity!

New question... grenade maximum range? 4x (3xSB)? I'm not sure, can't find anything on it.

Also... hell yes, Auto IS a character killer. it kills NPCs and enemies in seconds, I need to make it more deadly to PCs! I feel that if I want to give an NPC an autogun who may use it on the PCs, and I'm not sure if they can take it, I replace it with a lasrifle as a rule of thumb.

What i've learned thus far: Some rules clarifications, and that I need to make auto in combat bad. also, Bodysnatchers and armour-toting mercs are not as bad as I had been led to believe...

Jeans_Stealer · March 21, 2012