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peterstepon

How would you conquer the Jericho reach?

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I would pull a Kryptman and capture and then place a bunch of Genestealers on worlds near the Hadex Anomaly and draw Dagon into a perpetual war against the limitless forces of the Stigmartus.

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No no no, you have this stuff all wrong.  You're thinking about things like logistics and alliances and weapons and armies and--no no no.  There is a much simpler solution to all of this and it kills two birds with one stone:

 

You all need to think with PORTALS.  Open one on the incoming Tyranid Hive Fleet, open the other on the Chaos front lines.  Everybody wins!

 

I now gladly await a bolter to the face.  It was entirely worth it.

 

(In seriousness, the only way I believe the Imperium to make progress is to get two of their enemies to fight each other in total war.  The engineering for this scenario would require a good deal of resources but would be a significant boon.)

Edited by Zaukodar

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No no no, you have this stuff all wrong.  You're thinking about things like logistics and alliances and weapons and armies and--no no no.  There is a much simpler solution to all of this and it kills two birds with one stone:

 

You all need to think with PORTALS.  Open one on the incoming Tyranid Hive Fleet, open the other on the Chaos front lines.  Everybody wins!

 

I now gladly await a bolter to the face.  It was entirely worth it.

 

(In seriousness, the only way I believe the Imperium to make progress is to get two of their enemies to fight each other in total war.  The engineering for this scenario would require a good deal of resources but would be a significant boon.)

 

They tried that already: Inquisitor kryptman tricked a hive fleet into attacking an ork held systhem. And there was great rejoycing... untill they noted that instead of wiping each other out both sides got stronger during the conflict:

 

When orks win they get bigger, tougher and meaner (kinda like a biological promotion)

And when the hive fleet absorbed the genetic material it also got stronger...

que escalating biological arms race/infinite loop, untill one side wins and the imperium gets hit by a either a waaaagh full of ogryn size orks or a hive fleet full of nidzillas. Whoever wins, we loose, indeed.

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just about everything against chaos really.

 

Necrons are already pretty much anti chaos.

Eldar are still sore over that whole slaanesh thing, so they hate chaos.

Orks fight for themselves and dont need other gods since they have gork and mork.

'Nids seem very much uncoruptable by chaos (only thing i found in the fluf was a carnifex with nurgle's rot)

Tau are very hard to lure away from the ethereals and know better than to trust chaos

 

Wow looks like the humans are the only ones (still) dumb enough to fall for chaos...

Edited by Robin Graves

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just about everything against chaos really.

 

Necrons are already pretty much anti chaos.

Eldar are still sore over that whole slaanesh thing, so they hate chaos.

Orks fight for themselves and dont need other gods since they have gork and mork.

'Nids seem very much uncoruptable by chaos (only thing i found in the fluf was a carnifex with nurgle's rot)

Tau are very hard to lure away from the ethereals and know better than to trust chaos

 

Wow looks like the humans are the only ones (still) dumb enough to fall for chaos...

Think in one of the Ragnar Blackmane books there was a chunk of 'Nid ship or something that was part of a space hulk that got partially corrupted by the warp. Not exactly typical circumstances, though.

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Why not join chaos (ARRGH! My Imperium supporting part of the brain rebels against me. How could I!)? Armies of psykers, super strong mutants and chaos marines which are hell more dangerous. Not including daemons and other nasties. Imperium of man (with chaos) could destroy the orks (I don't know about that), the eldar, the tau (they deserve it), the nids, an other enemies of man. And guess what, no need to wage mass war against chaos!

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No no no, you have this stuff all wrong.  You're thinking about things like logistics and alliances and weapons and armies and--no no no.  There is a much simpler solution to all of this and it kills two birds with one stone:

 

You all need to think with PORTALS.  Open one on the incoming Tyranid Hive Fleet, open the other on the Chaos front lines.  Everybody wins!

 

I now gladly await a bolter to the face.  It was entirely worth it.

 

(In seriousness, the only way I believe the Imperium to make progress is to get two of their enemies to fight each other in total war.  The engineering for this scenario would require a good deal of resources but would be a significant boon.)

 

They tried that already: Inquisitor kryptman tricked a hive fleet into attacking an ork held systhem. And there was great rejoycing... untill they noted that instead of wiping each other out both sides got stronger during the conflict:

 

When orks win they get bigger, tougher and meaner (kinda like a biological promotion)

And when the hive fleet absorbed the genetic material it also got stronger...

que escalating biological arms race/infinite loop, untill one side wins and the imperium gets hit by a either a waaaagh full of ogryn size orks or a hive fleet full of nidzillas. Whoever wins, we loose, indeed.

 

 

Also as of the 7e Ork codex Ghazgkull has amassed the largest Waaagh!!! since the Ullanor crusade and is heading to Octarius to kill some 'nids...

 

this is going to end wonderfully!

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Ah good, because I was getting a bit tired of him always trying to stomp Armageddon.

 

Also his actions were prompted when Gork and Mork directly intervened and saved him for Yarrick and Helbrecht who were on his ass. And they told him to go to Octarius and make da biggest Waaagh!!! and a whole bunch of Orky stuff.

 

Plot advancement in 40k? EGADS!

Edited by Lord Master Igneus

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Well failbaddon kinda made an impact on the Cadian gate. But yeah not much happens.

Unlike in warhammer! Great scott I don't know if you care about warhammer fantasy but GW has rebooted the End Times

and all hell has broken loose:

 

Nagash is back and half the special characters from the undead armies have joined him.

Kislev is flat out GONE.

and that's just book one!

The empire's capitol of Altdorf has fallen to a chaos army!

Thats like if Abadon nuked Terra!

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My own recommendations for taking care of the reach:

 

1) Make peace with Tau (or at most non-aggression pact) which trades removing all hostile forces in the area for a cessation of their direct expansion.  I believe they would be up for it, and it frees up resources better used elsewhere.

2) Redirect all resources freed up from the battle with the Tau, as well as all new resources coming in, into the Tyranids.  Stop their advances, and wipe them clean from the area of space.  Losses will occur, heavy losses, in the Acheros salient as it is deprived of support.  Have them do their best, and perform a fighting withdrawal as they go, retreating towards the iron collar.

3) Once the Tyranids are defeated, utilize all available resources to reclaim the Acheros salient.  By now, there are almost certainly new enemies in play.  Engage with them only as much as is necessary to achieve the end of purging the Acheros salient completely.

4) Cleanse any remaining enemies, such as the Necrons, Eldar, or Orks, which arose during your previous campaigns.

5) Rinse and repeat, as we all know peace will not last in the conquered areas.

6) Betray the Tau and return in force, wiping them out.

 

It's all about reducing the number of fronts, and as the Tau front can be eliminated without military action, and with nothing more than words and common sense, that *has* to be the first one to go.  After that, all efforts are on the Tyranids, because they eliminate all value from worlds they claim.  There is definitely a chance the Tyranids, even with the efforts of two salients worth of resources and whatever reinforcements you can muster, won't be defeated, or won't be defeated in time, and the enemies in the Acheros salient will prove victorious entirely.  That is a risk that must be taken, though, as this must be reduced from a 3 front to a one front war to have any realistic chance at victory, especially within the kind of time necessary to deal with other impending threats.  Not a perfect plan or a risk free one, but that would be mine.  Unfortunately, that is the kind of decision that would need to be made by the military commanders of the salient, and could not be done by a kill team.

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Peace with the Tau... peace with the Tau...

 

Always peace with Tau. NO Peace with 'frikkin backstabbers!

 

Otherwise a really good idea. Good work. Apart from peace with the Tau. Hate the Xenos. Burn the Xenos. Slaughter the Xenos.

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At least you can make peace with the Tau...

 

We tried it with orks, and they got offended and beat us up.

We tried it with the Eldar, and they called us monkeys, so we shot them.

We tried it with these brightly colored eldar, and they laughed at us and dissapeared.

We tried it with the spiky eldar and they killed, tortured and enslaved half my regiment.

We tried it with the necrons and they shot us.

We tried it with the Alpha Legion and they said "sure" and then shot us in the back.

 

And we certainly are not gonna try it with the tyrannids!

Edited by Robin Graves

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Peace with the Tau... peace with the Tau...

 

Always peace with Tau. NO Peace with 'frikkin backstabbers!

 

Otherwise a really good idea. Good work. Apart from peace with the Tau. Hate the Xenos. Burn the Xenos. Slaughter the Xenos.

Don't think of it as peace with the Tau.

Think of it as letting Tau and Tyranids kill each other better. And then getting the resources that would have been stalemated in combat against the Tau available to kill Tyranids.

 

Remember, a world that is lost to Tyranids is permanently gone forever. A world that is lost to the Tau can be retaken.

The Tyranids are an active threat to everyone. The Tau only persist because the Imperium has had higher priorities get in the way - namely the Tyranids. Remember, the first Hive Fleet incursions caused the Imperium forces to outright withdraw from the areas they were engaging the Tau with. Establishing a ceasefire/temporary truce with the Tau where both sides hold in place in order to better kill the Tyranids isn't as big a deal or redirection of forces as that were.

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Remember the words of the Emperor:

Do not ask why you should kill the Alien

ask yourself instead

Why should you not kill the Alien?

 

Making peace with the Tau is like making peace with Chaos or the Eldar. They'll sign anything and it will mean **** to them.

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Remember the words of the Emperor:

Do not ask why you should kill the Alien

ask yourself instead

Why should you not kill the Alien?

 

Making peace with the Tau is like making peace with Chaos or the Eldar. They'll sign anything and it will mean **** to them.

 

But in this case, there is a clear and definite answer to that question. 

Why should you not kill the Alien? 

- Because resources spent killing Tau are resources *not* spent killing Tyrannids, and while the Tau inflict damage on the psyche and mental indoctrination of the worlds they inhabit that may take generations to undo, the Tyrannids remove all hope of ever deriving value from that world in the future.

- Because by not killing the Tau, you effectively limit the mobility of those in the Acheros salient.  By leaving a force inhabiting those worlds which will actively seek to defend them, you prevent having to defend those worlds as well as all other claimed territory, which makes it harder for your opponents in the Acheros salient to stretch your resources thin and then strike at your vulnerable points.

- Because there are enemies out there in the outer reaches, and by having at least one force at least partially between you and them, you increase the number of enemies that they face, and potentially buy yourself time to deal with your existing enemies before having to engage them fully.

- Because the number of fronts in your war must be reduced to increase your odds of victory, and the Tau, unlike the Tyranids or the forces of Chaos, are actually open to such an agreement.  They are the only force present in the Reach from which the above benefits can be gleaned.

- Finally, because they will still be there to kill later.  Since their goal is colonization, if your goal is the extermination of all Xenos, not killing them today does not deprive you of the opportunity to kill them later.  Like the Dread Pirate Roberts, there is always tomorrow in which to kill them.  And who knows?  The accord may be much longer lasting, and the day you get around to killing them, far further in the future than we anticipate.

 

Sure, they are filthy Xenos, but as previously mentioned, they are the only Xenos force that would actually be potentially open to such accords, and the Grimdark universe is an ultra hostile one where absolutely everyone is trying to kill you.  Having one fewer enemy and one more ally (that is to say, one ally), no matter how nebulous or untrustworthy they may be, would be an inconceivably large improvement in the overall galactic situation for humans.  The Tau certainly aren't going to find any allies, partners, non aggression pacts, whatever you may ascribe to it, amongst the Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, or Eldar.  We're kinda their only option, too.  To be heretically honest, too, if their culture did infuse itself into parts of the Imperium along the way, that wouldn't be the worst fate that could befall mankind.  They're kinda also fighting themselves, and if they could be taught a little bit less "survival at all costs" (feeding into chaos) and a bit more "the greater good", well, that might be a victory in and of itself.

Edited by Dr. Quinn
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Remember the words of the Emperor:

Do not ask why you should kill the Alien

ask yourself instead

Why should you not kill the Alien?

 

Making peace with the Tau is like making peace with Chaos or the Eldar. They'll sign anything and it will mean **** to them.

You're looking at it all wrong.

You're not making peace with the Tau. You're allowing the Tau to fight something that they want to fight more than they want to fight the Imperium, which is a greater threat to the Imperium and one that you would still have to fight if the Tau weren't around. Not fighting the Imperium so that both can fight the Tyranids is in the interest of the Tau - if they get a deal, they're not going to doublecross the Imperium until after the Tyranids have been dealt with.

The Tau are a lesser threat than either Chaos or the Eldar, and while xenos, they are not a race that will against against their own apparent interests. Their trickery is more on a tactical than a strategic level. They might not give all their reasons for wanting something but once they agree to something like a truce to fight the Tyranids, they're going to stick to their word until the Tyranids are dealt with. They (perhaps foolishly) see the Imperium as a lesser threat than the Tyranids - and in large part that's because the Imperium has never been able to free up the resources to properly deal with the Tau once and for all - and that in and of itself is mostly because of the Tyranids.

 

 

As for the question "why should you not kill the alien", in this specific instance of "why should you not kill the Tau", the answer is so that (a) the Tau can kill the Tyranids/vice versa, and (b) you can use most of the resources that would be used against the Tau against the Tyranids (most because you still want to engage in counterinsurgency operations and better secure the worlds that were on the tau front, and slowly build a force to jump the Tau once the Tyranids are done).

Remember - there is absolutely nothing in the Creed or Truth against allowing xenos to kill xenos to their hearts content - if they're busy killing each other and grinding away at each other's forces and resources, that frees up the Imperium to deal with xenos that aren't busy killing each other first, and weakens both so that the victor can more easily be cleaned up by the Imperium.

 

A world lost to or held by the Tau can ultimately be reclaimed for the Imperium. A world lost to the Tyranids is permanently gone for everyone. Who would you rather risk loosing a world to in order to prevent the other from taking one?

 

 

While it is true, that once the Tyranids are done, the Tau will likely want to resume operations against the Imperium/the Imperium's interests, they won't actually do so until after the Tyranids are done and the Tau will likely want to take some additional time to regroup and rebuild their forces that were engaged with the Tau before even considering actively re-engaging the Imperium.

That window of time between finishing the Tyranids and before the Tau are finished rebuilding from the Tyranids is when the Imperium should strike the Tau.

It is also quite possible that the Imperium's forces along the Tau fronts will be able to jump the Tau before they find out the Tyranids are done - because with the end of the Tyranids, Astrotelepathic communications from the Tyranids hunters will be possible.

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Remember the words of the Emperor:

Do not ask why you should kill the Alien

ask yourself instead

Why should you not kill the Alien?

 

Making peace with the Tau is like making peace with Chaos or the Eldar. They'll sign anything and it will mean **** to them.

 

True words from a true Emperor's supporter. And I agree on both accounts. The Tau will use the 'peace' to infilrate the higher echeleons of Imperial society turning more good men to believing the Tau cause. While some say 'whats-its-name' is paranoid I believe he has the right idea. More troubles come from Human Tau supporters than the actual Tau in some cases.

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Remember the words of the Emperor:

Do not ask why you should kill the Alien

ask yourself instead

Why should you not kill the Alien?

 

Making peace with the Tau is like making peace with Chaos or the Eldar. They'll sign anything and it will mean **** to them.

 

True words from a true Emperor's supporter. And I agree on both accounts. The Tau will use the 'peace' to infilrate the higher echeleons of Imperial society turning more good men to believing the Tau cause. While some say 'whats-its-name' is paranoid I believe he has the right idea. More troubles come from Human Tau supporters than the actual Tau in some cases.

 

In a vacuum, sure, obliterate the Tau without mercy or restraint. On the other hand ... I'd rather have to deal with Tau infiltrators and potential insurgencies years down the line if that means stopping the Tyranids now.

Cutting a "for the duration of Tyranid hostilities" deal, and possibly extending it to cover the duration of suppressing primary Chaos elements in the Reach, with the Tau really is the lesser evil when compared to letting the Tyranids rampage further and the threat of Chaos.

 

 

Also, putting the Tau and the Eldar in the same category as Chaos isn't really all that fair or accurate. Sure, the Tau and the Eldar are tricksy bastards who will exploit any loophole that exists, and have their own agendas ... but the Tau are, in the grand scheme of things, a relatively minor regional power that continues to survive only because they're a low priority for the Imperium when compared to the Tyranids, Necrons, and Chaos - worlds held by the Tau will still be there when the Imperium gets around to crushing them. The Eldar never put all, or even most of their cards on the table, but they're incredibly opposed to Chaos, and while they're contemptuous of humans, and generally arrogant bastards, they're not going to sacrifice planetary populations for kicks and giggles ... and the while they're ruthless enough where if obtaining their end objective requires lots of human deaths, they won't hesitate, they won't go out of their way to do damage to human interests unless it is required by their plan or one of their plans.

The Imperium can find common ground with both the Tau and the Eldar in certain, specific areas - usually involving Chaos, Necrons, Orks, and/or Tyranids.

 

 

Ebongrave is so bloody paranoid that he's actively damaging Imperial interests in the Reach - and creating fertile ground for Tau, or even Chaos, plots to gain local support. I'd say quietly assassinate him - make it look like natural causes, if possible, get someone more reasonable in charge, cut a deal with the Tau to stop shooting at each other and refocus against the Tyranid threat, and send in a lot of Arbites, Missionaries, and an Inquisitorial liason mission under moderates to counter Tau covert activities.

Ebongrave is a sledgehammer, and is maniacally focused and tunnelvisioned on the Tau, to the exclusion of the wider strategic picture. Unfortunately, the problem is more complicated than a sledgehammer can address, especially when the wider picture is taken into account, specifically the arrival of the Tyranids. Before the Tyranids showed up, Ebongrave's flaws were not that detrimental to long term Imperial interests in regaining the Reach overall.

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A sledgehammer is still deadly is it not?

Yes ... but it's not always the right tool for the job; there aren't that many uses one can be put to, and none that require much delicacy or finesse. And in this case, Ebongrave is the wrong man for the job. He's better suited to a post requiring less mental flexibility. He'd probably do well against Orks or Tyranids, but he's the wrong person for his job in the present climate. Even before the Tyranids showed up, Ebongrave wasn't really the right person, it was just that his flaws could usually be worked around or bypassed, and when they couldn't, they weren't likely to stand in the way of the Imperium retaking and holding the Jericho Reach - they were just going to make it take longer and require a much longer period of time to pacify the worlds in his area of operations, and leave them more prone to rebellion/rebellious influences in the future.

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I have a plan that would help ensure that the Tau are in no position to betray us if we were to grant them the honor of being our meat-shields.

 

Step 1: Send a Deathwatch team to one of the planets controlled by Chaos, disguised as members of a traitor legion.  

 

Step 2: 'Acquire' a ship from the chaos controlled planet by whatever means deemed necessary (Killing the current heretical owners is advised)

 

Step 3: Gather a warband of the foul heretics together and get them on the ship. Since the Deathwatch team should be baring the colors of chaos and are space marines, getting fools to follow them should be rather easy.

 

Step 4: Take stolen ship and new found warband to a Tau planet. Recommend lowering the Gellar Field in certain parts of the ship in order to pick up free demons without having to make any pacts or anything (If those parts of the ship happened to have some insane heretical cultists in them at the time, who cares?)

 

Step 5: Arrive at Tau planet and proceed to crash the ship into it. If possible, teleport or escape pod out of the ship before hitting the ground. 

 

Step 6: During the chaos (pun intended) of the surviving heretics and demons going and saying hello to the local Tau population, have the still chaos disguised Deathwatch team go and kill as many Ethereals as they possible can in as horrific a fashion as they can imagine. If you can, board cast it over the Tau networks.  You're not just trying to remove the leaders of the Tau, but your also trying to install in them a completely justified sense of hatred of all things chaos. Have fun and be creative.

 

(Step 7 onwards assumes that either all or most of the Etherals are dead)

 

Step 7: While the Tau are short on leaders and in complete disarray at the horrible death of their leaders, have the Imperium call them up to discuss terms for a cease fire/alliance. Any remaining leaders will therefore be to preoccupied with making nice with the Imperium to reign in their forces properly in the aftermath of the chaos attack. 

 

Step 8: Wait for a faction of the Tau's military to go and bombard the **** out of a Chaos held world (Leave the data of which planet the ship came from to be discovered) to avenge their dead Etherals.

 

Step 9: Elements of the forces of Chaos will no doubt take offense to the fact that  xenos sucker punched them at random and thus gather warbands together to launch retaliation for the assault.

 

Outcome: The Imperium no longer has to fight the Tau. Warbands of heretics that would otherwise be assaulting the servants of the Emperor will now be attacking the Tau.

 

The Tau are going to be to busy tying up their resources fighting both the forces of chaos and the Tyranids from both without and within to be able to focus their efforts on winning over Imperial hearts and minds.

 

The warbands of the dark gods attacking the tau are now in the path of the Tyranids, giving the **** bugs something else to chew on that isn't loyal Imperials.

 

We've effectively removed a war front, weakened the enemy on another and can now focus our efforts where we need to.  

 

In fact, if we knock off all the Etherals we could even give the Tau Empire a large **** you by assisting the Tau in their hour of need and twisting their beliefs to mean that serving the Emperor of Mankind as a second class vessel is for the Greater Good.

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A plan that deals with the Tau without allying them? Yes please! This plan only has one flaw though, don't forget to invade the Tau while they are fighting. Don't get too close as to enter a battle of Tau and Chaos but close enough to threaten the capital. The Tau will probably be worried and offer peace. However get a couple of Space Marine companies waiting to invade the weakened capital if the Tau disagree to Imperial demands. Make those demands so tough that they will weaken the tau but lenient enough to make them agree. Wait till the peace treaty takes effect then invade anyway. You will face a weakened Tau force, weakened both by the war against Chaos and the demands of the treaty. In this way we exploit the ability to make peace with the Tau and then crush them!

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