Question on draw cap

[Testacleas 0]

As our play group understands it any draw effect durring the draw phase does not count durring the draw cap.  Is this true?  If not which draw engines don't count twards draw cap if any? (Kings of Summer, the knights agenda, the book title, ect.)

[Staton 1]

 all cards that allow you to draw extra cards count towards the draw cap. So Kings of Summer, The Knights Agenda, etc all count towards the draw cap. The one exception being the Master of Laws title in multiplayer.

[Testacleas 0]

Thanks.  I don't try asking dumb questions but a lot of "correct in this way" things come up in my play group.

[Staton 1]

 Hey no problem. We've all been there at some point. Feel free to ask any and all questions

[ktom 598]

The thing to keep in mind is that if you get to draw extra cards, no matter when or how, because of something written on a card, it counts toward your draw cap. So, you know, pretty much everything.

(That's why the title doesn't count; title effects are technically rule effects, not card effects.)

[doulos2k 26]

 What if an agenda effect causes you to draw less cards? Are you now able to draw more cards through card effects (to a total of 5)? Or is the draw cap language such that you can draw no more than 3 cards outside of the draw phase through card effects?

Also, is the opposite true. If, somehow, a person is able to draw more than three cards PRIOR to the draw phase… must they limit themselves to three in this case or would they just have to limit their draw during the draw phase?

I'm not even sure that second scenario is possible (though it wouldn't surprise me).

[ktom 598]

The draw cap is not "a total of 5 card" over the course of a round.

The draw cap is "3 cards, not including the 2 you usually get during the draw phase." (So no, it is not possible to draw more than 3 cards before the draw phase because the game cuts you off at 3, then yo get the usual draw.)

Also, because it is "3 extra cards," if something lowers the number of cards you get in the draw phase to less than 2, you cannot "make it up" later and to get to a total of 5 by drawing more than 3 extra cards.

[doulos2k 26]

Excellent - just what I was hoping you'd say! :-)

[Bomb 66]

doulos2k said:

 What if an agenda effect causes you to draw less cards? Are you now able to draw more cards through card effects (to a total of 5)? Or is the draw cap language such that you can draw no more than 3 cards outside of the draw phase through card effects?

Also, is the opposite true. If, somehow, a person is able to draw more than three cards PRIOR to the draw phase… must they limit themselves to three in this case or would they just have to limit their draw during the draw phase?

I'm not even sure that second scenario is possible (though it wouldn't surprise me).

I hope I am understanding your questions, so bear with me.

The normal Draw Phase mechanic(draw 2 cards) does not count toward your draw cap.  If something reduces this(like Kings of Summer agenda while it is winter), it does not increase your draw cap for the round to 4.

Any card that allows you to draw cards will count toward your draw cap, inside and outside of the Draw phase.  Just because it is the Draw Phase does not mean draw effects will ignore the draw cap.

So, if you have hit your draw cap of 3 before the Draw Phase, you will still be able to draw 2 cards for the normal Draw Phase framework mechanic.  You just will not be able to draw anymore cards the remainder of the round.

So, your normal draw cap each round is 3.
This can be modified by Dolorious Edd(can increase your draw cap) and Rotten Bastard(basically reduces your draw cap by 1). 
The Draw phase mechanic has each player draw 2 cards and this does not count toward the draw cap.
The Kings of Summer agenda modifies the Draw phase mechanic by reducing that draw to 1 card if it is Winter.  This does not increase your draw cap by 1 with other drawing effects with cards in play.
The Master of Laws title allows you to draw 1 additional card by modifying the Draw phase mechanic and does not count toward the draw cap.
The draw cap is reset between each round.  So, let's just say your draw cap is reset to 0 at the end of each round(end of Taxation phase framework).

Any other way you can draw cards will count toward the draw cap.

Did that confuse you more?

[Bomb 66]

ktom is better at simplifying the explanation.

[sabrefox 0]

And thus usually quicker too, at least in my experience. {chuckle}

[doulos2k 26]

 Haha! Your explanation is sound, as well - thanks Bomb. I was pretty sure that the draw cap language limited card draw to three cards beyond the standard 2 "within the draw phase." With more effects and pre-plot shenanigans happening along with TLS and TFtE and other stuff that people come up with, I wanted to be sure I understood this correctly.

Essentially, you can NEVER draw more than three cards outside the draw phase without some other effect (like Dolorous Edd) that actually increases your draw cap. Within the draw phase, anything that increases your draw (except Master of Laws) impacts your draw cap, but anything that decreases your draw has no effect on the cap.

[ktom 598]

doulos2k said:

Within the draw phase, anything that increases your draw (except Master of Laws) impacts your draw cap, but anything that decreases your draw has no effect on the cap.

This is correct.

The thing to keep in mind is that Master of Laws does not impact the draw cap because it is not considered a card effect - and only card effects factor into the draw cap. On the other hand, an agenda like Knights of the Realm or Kings of Summer are card effects, so their "draw" effects impact the cap.

[Ikaros 0]

 Well, you can kinda "draw" more than 3 cards using effects that do not specifically says "draw".

For example, Oberyn's Guile: "Response: After you lose a challenge, reveal the top card of your deck, then add it to your hand."

This effect lets you obtain more than 3 cards, because it does not say "draw", but "add to hand".

[ktom 598]

Ikaros said:

Well, you can kinda "draw" more than 3 cards using effects that do not specifically says "draw".

For example, Oberyn's Guile: "Response: After you lose a challenge, reveal the top card of your deck, then add it to your hand."

This effect lets you obtain more than 3 cards, because it does not say "draw", but "add to hand".

This example is simply a reiteration of the definition of the "draw cap," which only applies to effects that specifically use the word "draw." Cards can be placed in your hand without being "drawn." So please don't confuse this without being able to "draw" more than 3 cards or think that somehow, you are able to draw more than 3. That's not what this example is about.

[Ikaros 0]

 Yes, I put quotation marks on "draw" because these effects are not considered "drawing". But their final result is more or less the same. So I think that it could be a useful information to highlight.

[ZeCapitan 0]

Staton said:

 Hey no problem. We've all been there at some point. Feel free to ask any and all questions

Uhh… you're wrong… don't ask him questions. To quote the official FAQ, page 7, "Cards drawn through an effect that modifies the framework draw (such as the benefit from the Kings of Summer agenda) do not count against the cap of 3 additional cards." Literally uses the example you were wondering about, and both these guys are incorrect. That being said, you still cannot draw past the 3 additional card cap if you lose a card in your framework draw. Hope this helps.

[Bomb 66]

ZeCapitan said:

 

 

Uhh… you're wrong… don't ask him questions. To quote the official FAQ, page 7, "Cards drawn through an effect that modifies the framework draw (such as the benefit from the Kings of Summer agenda) do not count against the cap of 3 additional cards." Literally uses the example you were wondering about, and both these guys are incorrect. That being said, you still cannot draw past the 3 additional card cap if you lose a card in your framework draw. Hope this helps.

 

 

I do not know which official FAQ you are reading, but that is incorrectly quoted from it.  The correct quote from the official FAQ on page 7(copied and pasted):

"Cards drawn through an effect that modifies
the framework draw (such as the benefit of the
Kings of Summer agenda) do count against the
cap of 3 additional cards."

I don't recommend you come on these forums and suggest that any members NOT ask specific members questions just because you believe they are incorrect on any topic.  That is just rude.

[ktom 598]

~ Well, asking Staton to answer your questions can be a hit-or-miss proposition. 

Of course, in this case, Staton hit the right answer. As Bomb point out, the poster has misquoted the current FAQ. 

[radiskull 39]

ZeCapitan said:

Staton said:

 

 Hey no problem. We've all been there at some point. Feel free to ask any and all questions

 

 

Uhh… you're wrong… don't ask him questions. To quote the official FAQ, page 7, "Cards drawn through an effect that modifies the framework draw (such as the benefit from the Kings of Summer agenda) do not count against the cap of 3 additional cards." Literally uses the example you were wondering about, and both these guys are incorrect. That being said, you still cannot draw past the 3 additional card cap if you lose a card in your framework draw. Hope this helps.

~You seriously want to use your only post on these forums to attempt to correct ktom?

(since you're new here, just know that preceding text with a '~' means that the line is meant to be taken as light-hearted sarcasm.)

[Fieras 0]

Edit: Redundant post is redundant.

Deleted my comment.