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ddunkelmeister

Leaders in Horde

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So, certain characters possess powers/rules that allow them to improve the capabilities of those around them (ex: Vespid Strain Leaders, Guard commanders, etc) when part of a horde. Many times, it is advantageous for the PCs to eliminate these individuals to gain a better chance at victory.

How do you resolve this? Can your PCs single-out members of a horde? And if so, how do you balance that so that every combat doesn't begin with all of the enemy "horde commanders" getting sniped?

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After the PC rolls his Ballastic Skill and is succesfull have the GM roll a percentage roll and have the elite or leader be the smaller percentile.

Example would be, the players makes a standard shooting attack at a Nob in a horde of 20 boyz and rolls a successfull shot. The GM then decides that he has 40 percent chance of hitting the Nob because of the Boyz waving their arms and shooting in the sky to make noise or waving there choppas around. the GM rolls a 38 so the PC does hit the Nob. Were as if he rolled a 55 then the shot hit the horde even tho it was aimed at the Nob.

Thats just how I would prolly do it if I was the GM

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Another possibiity is to make the commander an Elite enemy with stats to match, using the horde as cover. Perhaps a percentage chance to hit him with massed fire. Alternatively, one to take out with sniping or hand to hand. There are some examples of this in the Final Sanction adventure.

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 This is one of the situations Called Shot was built for. As for shooting at a horde without the use of called shot and hoping fo rthe best, I'd say the Leader is safe until his horde breaks or dies, why not give him the benefit of the doubt so the players don't off him in one turn (Called Shot aside). Only exception would be blast weapons but even then I'd lean towards letting the Leader live because someone used the RPG equivalent of "Get Down, Sir!"

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Interrogator-Chaplain Regulus said:

Alternatively, you could treat it just like a called shot.  Instead of picking out a specific body part, you are aiming for a specific individual in a horde.

 

I like this, feels like tabletop.

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If your elite or master is far bigger than the horde around it will not be difficult to aim. Like a Biotitan in a horde of Termagant.

If the elite or master is same size than the horde around but significantly different like a genestealer in a human hybrid horde, then I apply - 20% BS.

if the elite opr master is same size but quite the same look or smaller than the horde around I give -20% and add horde magnitude. For example shooting at the leader of the Traitorious imperial comando with all the guys looking the same coming in a mag 20 horde then shot the leader will be at -40%. The players will also need to spot him first if the NPC had not make his presence known to the player (like firing his plasma pistol when all other are lasgun equiped).

 

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To jump on the leader you need to see him… So Hive tyrant or tyranid fighters or even carnifex are quite easy to spot in a hormagant horde but what about The ingenious chaos commando leader that look the same as all his budy because point out officer is giving ennemy a clear shot on command?

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Ok, how about this:

Leaders can be picked out from among the Horde, but these attacks suffer a penalty to the Attack roll equal to the bonus for the size of the Horde. The Leader's own size provides an additional modifier: It is hard to hit a Leader in a large group, and easier to hit a large Leader.

Area effect attacks such as Blast and Flame weapons cannot be directed at the leader.

-K

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How would you handle synapse creatures among  a horde of gaunts or rippers? If he dies first, would the horde break and run or fall in on itself? Or like a nob with an Ork horde will they start fighting among each other for control if the biggest ork dies?

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If the Synapse creature were killed the Tryanids would revert to Instinctive Behavior, but I'd don't think anything would abandon  combat to lurk…I'd say the KT would need to withdraw, or if the Tyranids broke and ran and were left be they'd lurk, otherwise they'd continue to eat Marines. Orks aren't going to give up a good fight to sort out who in charge. They'll beat the Marines to mush, then sort out who's da biggest.

I was going to comment on picking out the Leader in a Horde, but it bogs down in adding and subtracting modifiers. I think this is something FFG should have considered, meaning Leader/Horde Size differences. Could be they play tested it and they knew what to do because they knew what they meant, and we're all just gawp-mouthed fools because we don't get it.  Unless…you are shooting one or the other, and not both? Though a smart KT would direct their fire at both. Well, I know how I'd do it, but you'll get mum from me.

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Alekzanter said:

I was going to comment on picking out the Leader in a Horde, but it bogs down in adding and subtracting modifiers. I think this is something FFG should have considered, meaning Leader/Horde Size differences. Could be they play tested it and they knew what to do because they knew what they meant, and we're all just gawp-mouthed fools because we don't get it.  Unless…you are shooting one or the other, and not both? Though a smart KT would direct their fire at both. Well, I know how I'd do it, but you'll get mum from me.

 

I was toying around with this one myself trying to find something that wouldn't bog down - in the end I opted for treating it as a called shot where the penalty is equal to the current magnitude of the horde. 10 points of this penalty is ignored for every size category larger the creature is.

  • Chaos Arch-Heretic hiding in his Magnitude (30) throng would be -30 - picking him out is going to be tough
  • Tyranid Warrior hiding in Magnitude (30) Termagant Swarm would be a base of -30, but ignores 20 of that due to Enormous vs Normal, so -10 overall

As it's a Called Shot, only a single shot may be taken (no full-auto called shots), but I will allow missed shots to still hit the horde if the roll would have allowed it anyway (i.e. if firing with BS50 at the aforemention Arch-heretic, he'd be hit on a 20 or less, but the horde is still large enough for the normal +30 modifier, so rolls of 80 or less would still hit the horde). The downside to targetting the leader in this case would be that you have to engage the horde using single shots rather than automatic fire.

Also, being a called shot allows Dead Eye and Sharpshooter to apply, allowing you to half the base penalty or ignore it respectively - which makes the two Talents much more tempting (they always seemed a little lacking).

 

 

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Sort of related to the above, if you want your horde to actively disuuade sniping of leaders or even elites and masters adjacent to them you could create a horde trait for that purpose that some hordes might have. I did just this back when DW came out and have used it from time to time with pleasing results:

 

 

Defend the Master:
Bodyguards, the escorts of an ethereal, skull servitors, fanatical cultists, Tyranid beasts, and even heroic guardsmen might share this trait. They are expendable, and far less valuable than those they are supposed to protect. A horde with this trait may sacrifice one point of magnitude to negate a single hit on any adjacent ally that they serve or protect. 

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Vehem said:

Alekzanter said:

I was going to comment on picking out the Leader in a Horde, but it bogs down in adding and subtracting modifiers. I think this is something FFG should have considered, meaning Leader/Horde Size differences. Could be they play tested it and they knew what to do because they knew what they meant, and we're all just gawp-mouthed fools because we don't get it.  Unless…you are shooting one or the other, and not both? Though a smart KT would direct their fire at both. Well, I know how I'd do it, but you'll get mum from me.

 

 

I was toying around with this one myself trying to find something that wouldn't bog down - in the end I opted for treating it as a called shot where the penalty is equal to the current magnitude of the horde. 10 points of this penalty is ignored for every size category larger the creature is.

  • Chaos Arch-Heretic hiding in his Magnitude (30) throng would be -30 - picking him out is going to be tough
  • Tyranid Warrior hiding in Magnitude (30) Termagant Swarm would be a base of -30, but ignores 20 of that due to Enormous vs Normal, so -10 overall

As it's a Called Shot, only a single shot may be taken (no full-auto called shots), but I will allow missed shots to still hit the horde if the roll would have allowed it anyway (i.e. if firing with BS50 at the aforemention Arch-heretic, he'd be hit on a 20 or less, but the horde is still large enough for the normal +30 modifier, so rolls of 80 or less would still hit the horde). The downside to targetting the leader in this case would be that you have to engage the horde using single shots rather than automatic fire.

Also, being a called shot allows Dead Eye and Sharpshooter to apply, allowing you to half the base penalty or ignore it respectively - which makes the two Talents much more tempting (they always seemed a little lacking).

This is simple, yet elegant.

The same calculations could be used to allow these Leaders to avoid Blast and Flame weapons, providing a bonus to (otherwise crappy) Dodge Tests and allowing them to duck behind their mates for cover. Let's face it, NPC Leaders without Dodge could use the boost in survivability. Sneaky gits (those with Dodge) become a legitmiate challenge.

Now, imagine how difficult it might be to target the Genestealer lurking within a frothing Horde of Genestealer Cultists as it's running pell-mell through the corridors and braying for blood! -20 for being in the Horde, -20 for Running, -20 for Hard Target…

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