jumping into buildings

[Dieter2 0]

 we had this issue come up in a recent game.

my axis unit was standing outside of the entrance to the building. the entrance inside of the building is un-occupied.

Can an ally infantry unit with jump ability simply jump over my axis infantry, directly into the building?
I was unable to find anything conclusive in the rules. It seems unlikely, but I would like to get some feedback either way.

 

Thanks. 

[Loophole Master 2]

I'd say they can. They can jump over your squad outside the building, and they can jump over it inside the building, so it would be a bit too fiddly to say they can't jump over them going from one to the other.

[Major Mishap 33]

Yeah. I'm afraid this is another unrealistic rule that you have to try and forget about

[Dieter2 0]

 so it is possible to jump INSIDE of a building, if both infantry units are inside the same building?

we had just assumed that this was not possible once they entered a structure.
Don't they bang their noggins? I guess that's what the helmets are for then...

[Loophole Master 2]

Nothing in the rules say that jumping is impossible inside buildings.

[Dieter2 0]

 thanks for the help and clarification

y'all rock

[Jiltedtoo 1]

Dieter said:

my axis unit was standing outside of the entrance to the building. the entrance inside of the building is un-occupied.

Can an ally infantry unit with jump ability simply jump over my axis infantry, directly into the building?
I was unable to find anything conclusive in the rules. It seems unlikely, but I would like to get some feedback either way.

 

No per, Cerberus page 14, "A unit with the Jump skill cannot enter a building by jumping"

[Loophole Master 2]

Well spotted, sir!

There's your answer, and a nice one it is.

[Dakkon426 0]

 Ok then once we are inside can we jump from and indoor square to a second indoor square?

[Loophole Master 2]

I can't find anything against it.

[Jiltedtoo 1]

Yeah, I am really starting to brush up on my rules.

I cannot find anywhere either where the rules state Jump cannot be used inside a structure.

May have to be added to the FAQ for clarification.

[Loophole Master 2]

Well, there isn't really any clarification needed. If the rules don't say jump is forbidden inside buildings, then that's it. In the undying words of Lord Vader: "There is no conflict."

[Gimp2 0]

Actually, there can be some confusion, though the rules are clear as written.  All of the current Jump infantry have a Movement of 2, but nothing says Jump is the only reason they have it.

Jump allows you to go over obstacles and enemy infantry, though obstacles currently only cause issues for vehicles.  Outside of those constraints, a unit with Jump and Movement 2 simply moves faster than other units.  Arguably, they are only using Jump when needed to clear obstacles, or get a boost of speed along the ground.

With that, a Jump capable unit can move into and through a building using their full movement, but could not do so if they had to jump over an enemy unit to enter or leave (I include leaving the building because Cerberus specifies the rules for entering also apply to leaving). 

Jumping an enemy unit while inside a building might seem a bit strange, as buildings could have very low ceilings where that would be hard to see as workable, but it could be considered to be moving low and jetting through alternate routes through the building, including stairwells normal troops couldn't use, instead of physically going 'over' the enemy unit.

I don't mind the limitation on Jumping into a building, but would not have had issues if they had allowed it, nor thought it strange.  With the obvious ground scale for DUST, there would be plenty of room in a space for a unit to Jump over an enemy unit and keep moving on into or out of a building. 

We're using 1:48th scale models in a game where rifles shoot four spaces.  Even a conservative ground scale would give each square a width of at least 50 meters for that, so a five man squad would have half a football field to Jump around the five man enemy squad that might be there.

[Loophole Master 2]

Gimp said:

All of the current Jump infantry have a Movement of 2, but nothing says Jump is the only reason they have it.

Jump allows you to go over obstacles and enemy infantry, though obstacles currently only cause issues for vehicles.  Outside of those constraints, a unit with Jump and Movement 2 simply moves faster than other units.  Arguably, they are only using Jump when needed to clear obstacles, or get a boost of speed along the ground.

That line of thought is only bound to create confusion. Game mechanics-wise, Jump has absolutely nothing to do with Move 2. Jump doesn't make you go faster, it only allows you to ignore obstacles. Being unable to Jump doesn't affect your Move rating in any way.

[felkor 74]

I didn't realize this whole no jumping in or out of building rule.  For some of the "get to this objective square to win" scenarios, they aren't quite so broken now as there are more options to hold up these units.

[Gimp2 0]

Loophole Master said:

 

Gimp said:

All of the current Jump infantry have a Movement of 2, but nothing says Jump is the only reason they have it.

 

Jump allows you to go over obstacles and enemy infantry, though obstacles currently only cause issues for vehicles.  Outside of those constraints, a unit with Jump and Movement 2 simply moves faster than other units.  Arguably, they are only using Jump when needed to clear obstacles, or get a boost of speed along the ground.

 

That line of thought is only bound to create confusion. Game mechanics-wise, Jump has absolutely nothing to do with Move 2. Jump doesn't make you go faster, it only allows you to ignore obstacles. Being unable to Jump doesn't affect your Move rating in any way.

 

 

That was my point.  Some people already think of Jump as why they have Move 2, but that isn't the case within the rules. 

They are Move 2 units, with a separate special ability that lets them Jump obstacles and enemy units.  The only restrictions on using Jump are impassable spaces, enemy vehicles, and entering or leaving a building.  If there is nothing at the building's entrance they need to Jump, they can enter or leave at Move 2.  Within a building, there is nothing currently stopping them from using Jump beyond the normal constraints.

Their jump packs might be why they can move faster, but they don't use them just to Jump.

[chaosvt 0]

i disagree. The section talking about using jump to enter a building is trying to emphasize the fact that you must enter from the ground floor and not floors 2 or 3. The restriction to jumping prevents units from going up and into a floor 2 or floor 3 window. It does not mean you cannot go through a squad blocking the door or window on floor 1. 

[Major Mishap 33]

chaosvt said:

i disagree. The section talking about using jump to enter a building is trying to emphasize the fact that you must enter from the ground floor and not floors 2 or 3. The restriction to jumping prevents units from going up and into a floor 2 or floor 3 window. It does not mean you cannot go through a squad blocking the door or window on floor 1. 

Don't agree there.  All the can and can't do's are listed independently in seperate sentences under the Entering A Structure heading, so all rules for entering are contained here and its not just about entering on the ground floor, that is only just one of the criteria.

[Gimp2 0]

As it is written, the restriction on Jumping an enemy unit to enter or exit a building is the only real explanation for the rule.  It is specified that you cannot enter or leave a building from a floor other than the first, and no unit can pass through a space with an enemy unit, except by using Jump to go past them.

Since the Move of the Jump capable units is independent of the Jump skill, they can use Move 2 at any time.

Since all units have to enter the building on the ground floor, Jump does not apply there, either.

It is only when considering the ability to Jump an enemy unit in conjunction with entering or leaving a building that the restriction makes sense.  The restriction can only apply when an enemy unit blocks the entrance to a building, and the Jump capable unit wants to get past them.

[ktj1138 0]

I thought I read on an earlier post a few months back that while yes, an infantry unit with Jump could not jump onto the top of a building (unstable, or slipper roof being the cause), it was possible for them to jump off of the building if they were already on the roof. Does else anybody remember that clarification and discussion? I can't seem to find it on the board anymore.

[Gian2 0]

Its in the Operation Cerberus rulebook

[Gimp2 0]

ktj1138 said:

I thought I read on an earlier post a few months back that while yes, an infantry unit with Jump could not jump onto the top of a building (unstable, or slipper roof being the cause), it was possible for them to jump off of the building if they were already on the roof. Does else anybody remember that clarification and discussion? I can't seem to find it on the board anymore.

No official clarification.  It was simply discussion between forum members based on the wording, with logical arguments to support the idea.

Operation Cerberus restricts landing on a roof because of the slippery surfaces and possibility of going through the roof instead of it supporting the weight.  Jumping off of the roof was not restricted, and the roof would have to be viable for them to be starting a Jump from there.

[mgentile7 0]

I think this is case of waht is parctical. If for example you mean jumping over your unit into a building with a low wall then yes. However if its a full single story or two story wall with windows, etc how would that be practical? Having grown up with the avalon hill games that forced you to buy 3-4 games before understand all of the complex rules im happy to see DT is not like that right now. Like At-43 the rules are simple, quick and makes sense. The rest you can fill in with common sense and good sportsmanship. Just my humble opinion.