Called to Court, Drowned Fanatic

[dcdennis 39]

 I played a game today where I played Called to Court and won initiative, used it to put Drowned Fanatic into play, but when I tried to trigger his response for winning init my opponent disagreed that the timing worked out. In the interest of time I decided not to argue the point but think I was right that I should have been able to trigger it. 

Can I can a ruling please so I may pass this thread along either way?

[Bomb 66]

dh098017 said:

 I played a game today where I played Called to Court and won initiative, used it to put Drowned Fanatic into play, but when I tried to trigger his response for winning init my opponent disagreed that the timing worked out. In the interest of time I decided not to argue the point but think I was right that I should have been able to trigger it. 

Can I can a ruling please so I may pass this thread along either way?

The Drowned Fanatic has a Response that can be triggered during the Response window of the Plots Revealing framework action.  Therefore because he is in play during that Response window, he can then trigger his response.

Triggering responses to Framework Actions only require that the response opportunity exists at the same time as the card with the response being available.

Let's put it this way.  If you draw Make an Example through Jhogo's Response to winning a MIL challenge, are you not allowed to play it immediately afterward if you happened to win that MIL challenge by 8 or more?  Just because it wasn't in your hand when you won the MIL challenge, doesn't mean you can't trigger the Response.

Similarly, just because Drowned Fanatic wasn't in play when you revealed plots and won initiative, doesn't mean you can't use his response to winning initiative if he happens to have been put in play before the Response window opens up for revealing plots.

[dcdennis 39]

 i believe the confusion surrounded around when the response happens. even though it is a response to winning initiative, you dont trigger it until a few steps later, which is a tad confusing.

[Bomb 66]

dh098017 said:

 

 i believe the confusion surrounded around when the response happens. even though it is a response to winning initiative, you dont trigger it until a few steps later, which is a tad confusing.

 

 

Oh definitely.  This game has a ton of confusing **** in it with timing and what not.  Even Josh Staton is still learning the game. 

[ktom 598]

The thing to remember is that, as outlined in the FAQ describing framework action windows, you do all of the framework events before passives/Responses to any of them happen.

So, in the plot phase, you:

1. Reveal plot cards
2. Determine initiative
3. Winner of initiative names first player
4. "When revealed" plot effects

Before you do passives or Responses to any of those individual things.

 

It's easier to see in the Challenge phase, although it's the exact same principle. You:

1. Determine the winner of the challenge
2. Resolve claim effects
3. Award "unopposed"
4. Award "Renown"

Before you do passives or Responses to any of those individual things. This is why, for example, you cannot play "A Lannister Pays His Debts" for losing an intrigue challenge before the winner has a chance to pull it out of your hand for claim.

[Bolzano2 0]

So a Response does not have to be in your hand to be allowed to open a Response opportunity that stay open until Step 6).

[ktom 598]

Well, the way to say that would be "a Response does not have to be in your hand when a Response opportunity is created because all Response opportunities stay open from the time they are created until Step 6 of the action window."

But yeah. That's the right idea. (Saves and Cancels are different, of course.)

 

Once a Response opportunity is open, it stays open until the end of the action window. That's why you can Respond to things in any order (as outlined in the FAQ). You don't have to Respond or take advantage of the opportunities right away. In a lot of cases, you actually can't Respond right away - because other things (framework events, passives, etc.) take precedence over Responses.

Response effects do not have to be available when the response opportunity opens, only used before the response opportunity closes. This becomes really obvious when you look at cards like Ser Arys Oakheart. His Response can only be used when he is in play (and not blank). But he is Responding to coming into play. That's a pretty clear example of how "after a character comes into play" Responses do not have to be available and/or usable before the response opportunity is created, no?

 

[Bomb 66]

ktom said:

 

Well, the way to say that would be "a Response does not have to be in your hand when a Response opportunity is created because all Response opportunities stay open from the time they are created until Step 6 of the action window."

But yeah. That's the right idea. (Saves and Cancels are different, of course.)

 

Once a Response opportunity is open, it stays open until the end of the action window. That's why you can Respond to things in any order (as outlined in the FAQ). You don't have to Respond or take advantage of the opportunities right away. In a lot of cases, you actually can't Respond right away - because other things (framework events, passives, etc.) take precedence over Responses.

Response effects do not have to be available when the response opportunity opens, only used before the response opportunity closes. This becomes really obvious when you look at cards like Ser Arys Oakheart. His Response can only be used when he is in play (and not blank). But he is Responding to coming into play. That's a pretty clear example of how "after a character comes into play" Responses do not have to be available and/or usable before the response opportunity is created, no?

 

 

 

Speaking of Ser Arys Oakheart.  I would like to point out that if you were to put him into play with Called to Court, his response would only be triggered after all plots When Revealed effects finish.  It's an important example in timing since the opponent may choose to return an Ally to his hand and not put one into play with that same plot because the discard effect of Oakheart happens after the plots resolve completely.

[Bolzano2 0]

ktom said:

Once a Response opportunity is open, it stays open until the end of the action window. That's why you can Respond to things in any order (as outlined in the FAQ). You don't have to Respond or take advantage of the opportunities right away. In a lot of cases, you actually can't Respond right away - because other things (framework events, passives, etc.) take precedence over Responses.

I agree with you. Also, when a Response opportunity open, somehow its play restrictions have been checked (otherwise, it could not be open). So we know play restrictions are first checked when the Response opportunity opens, not excluding further checks when actually triggered.