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Skowza

GG = NPE

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Just saw the new Dagos spoiled, and I gotta say it...

Playing against GG decks is about as much fun as playing against hyper-kneel. A total NPE; this is getting ridiculous.  In fact, you could Treaty Lanni kneel with GG and run Rich Lands and a Keep for even more Noble crests and a silly amount of draw/reveal cards from the two Houses that do it best.

Its making location-hate an absolute auto-include, and some Houses just can't do that very well (yea, I know theres a bit of unreliable neutral location control).  Does anyone else find it odd that designers have given Martell an entirely new buildstyle with just a few cards?  Is that a new theme of sorts?  Will each House get a whole new buildstyle?  Targ Knight builds?  Will they throw Stark a bunch of trait manipulation?
I don't even expect responses to this post, I'm just venting, my apologies but I'm still clicking the publish button.
 

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 This is going to be a complete Noob question but I simply Dont Get the outrage behind GG. Maybe its because nither I nor anyone in my meta (of 3 other people) run it but I hoenstly dont see the big deal, before the new Myrcella came out I didnt consider it's cost really Worth it since the rest of the Martell Nobels are just to dang valuable/expensive to put back to hand. Can someone please explain to me why its caused such an NPE for so many people? Is there some sort of combo with it that I'm just not seeing? Its not like Greyjoy got it!

p.s. where did you see the spoiler?

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A lot of the location hate that is available just isn't effective against a Ghaston Grey deck.  Anything that requires challenge wins before you can trigger is going to be hard to pull off, catching them without gold when there is a chance your card in shadows is a pyro is unlikely and even if you get through the play restrictions of the location hate events you then have HCiT to deal with.  Blanking can work but but not consistently and good old Maester of Lemonwood is probably loitering around should you have the cheek to actually use a Frozen Solid.  Newly Made Lord is the biggest issue for GG from the location hate corner.  At least Targ burn and Aegons Hill rip its face off.

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DerBarchen said:

Can someone please explain to me why its caused such an NPE for so many people? Is there some sort of combo with it that I'm just not seeing? Its not like Greyjoy got it!

p.s. where did you see the spoiler?

If no one in your meta runs it, try it out for yourself to see how powerful it is.  Try 3x Myrcella, 3x Edric. 3x GG, other Martell Nobles, 3x Game of Cyvasse, 3x VB for weenie removal if you want...  Flea Bottom makes Myrcella free every Round which gives you a huge adantage in the income department because you can probably return at least one 2+ cost character to your opponent's hand every Round.  He/She has to overextend on challenges or else you'll just bounce the attacking character(s) and the challenge fizzles.  Martell (especially Summer) can generate tones of income because they don't need to run many locations that aren't discounts so the build is in no way expensive.  Since your opponent probably isn't going to have many characters in play, all you need to do is get out a few weenies to be your core army; Refugees and Lost Spearman will suffice.  For even more control you could run First Snow and Search and Detain.  Your opponent won't even be able to Valar the characters that matter since they won't be in play much.  And btw, I'm not actually the one playing against it, I'm the one playing it.
Its funny that you mention GJ didnt get it, because the build itself is almost like a different kind of choke.

The spoiler is on AGOTCards.

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~Anyone that signs up today for the angry mob will receive a free pitch fork with the purchase of a torch.

Seriously though, GG is a bit strong.  It doesn't need to be banned, and putting it on the restricted list wouldn't do much.  I'd prefer a nice errata that says something like Challenges:  Return a Martell noble character you own and control to your hand to choose and opponent's character with an equal or lower gold cost.  Return that character to its owner's hand.  You could even give it a limit of once per phase.

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Sigh. Again? 

NPE? Probably. But so are a lot of competitve builds, and always have been (Lanni Kneel, GJ Choke, Wildlings - especially out of Martell or Stark, Maesters, über-Berics)... You've always had to specifically tech against them, even if it means running cards you otherwise wouldn't. 

I think the funniest thing with GG seems to be that the whining vs. teching -ratio has been completely different than with previous strong techs... Instead of people increasingly running more stuff that would work against it, people just look at the cards that would work against it and go "Nah". With Wildlings the talk of NPE didn't occur before it had won at least a few Tourneys (there were Wildlings at GenCon, but didn't win... I think the first Wildling wins were around Black Friday, Stahleck, French Nationals). Before the expirements prove it, it's just a hypothesis... :)

Anybody else remember how Wildlings completely made any/all challenge-based effects completely unplayable a little over a year ago? Ugh.

For reference, the kind of cards I would expect to increase in popularity with GG being so hated are:

Quickly off the top of my head, stuff that is NOT location control or challenge-based that will work against GG: Burning Bridges, Trigger Cancel in GJ, Pre-challenge kill/burn, Confession/Aegon's Hill, temporary blanking - Meera/Nightmares...

And different kinds of location control that will work on GG and is not challenge-based: Pyromancer's Apprentice, Salladhor Saan, Newly Made Lord, Warlock of Qarth, Climbing Spikes, Frozen Solid, Freezing Rain, Litany of Fire... Most of those (except for Litany of Fire and Frozen Solid) can be run OOH in one way or another.

Now, I'd be the first to admit that location control options (compared to attachments and characters) are still a bit lackluster in many houses (Stark and GJ being the largest exceptions), and I'd gladly see many houses get some more options on that front... preferably something house specific and thematic instead of boring neutrals. I guess the funniest kicker here is that the House with the worst in-house location control in the game is... Martell (Lanni at least has Location kneeling and Chella). That cracks me up. 

EDIT: And Deathjester26 has the right of it, regarding stuff that could/should be done to it. Maybe having to kneel GG to use it would be a nice additional cost (and widen the amount of effects that will work on it).

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Deathjester26 said:

~Anyone that signs up today for the angry mob will receive a free pitch fork with the purchase of a torch.

 

ooh, ooh, pick me, I want a pitchfork!

 

on a serious note- what does NPE stand for?

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Mighty Jim said:

Deathjester26 said:

 

~Anyone that signs up today for the angry mob will receive a free pitch fork with the purchase of a torch.

 

 

 

ooh, ooh, pick me, I want a pitchfork!

 

on a serious note- what does NPE stand for?

 

Negative Play Experience, I guess?

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Skowza said:

DerBarchen said:

 

Can someone please explain to me why its caused such an NPE for so many people? Is there some sort of combo with it that I'm just not seeing? Its not like Greyjoy got it!

p.s. where did you see the spoiler?

 

 

He/She has to overextend on challenges or else you'll just bounce the attacking character(s) and the challenge fizzles.  Martell (especially Summer) can generate tones of income because they don't need to run many locations that aren't discounts so the build is in no way expensive.

The spoiler is on AGOTCards.

Ah, I see your point, it Is pretty ridiculous with Myrcella/Flea Bottom. Just for clarification a card you sent back to your opponent's hand that he declares as an attacker/defender is no longer participating aye? I ask because for a moment I thought that it was similar to removing a character's icons mid challange, ie that it had no effect.

That said I think I agree with WWDrakey, it seems like there are Enough, if not a lot, of control to mitigate how power full this is. Aegon's hill probably being the meanest (and its not even that bad to run OOH, sure its Expensive but its utility goes far beyond GG counter) This type of deck doesnt seem to be much more NPE than GJ uber milll (especially with the cards in the last few packs we got) or Hyper-Kneel. I dont think it should be mitigated by another cost to trigger, but maybe just more Cost, as in just make it 3 or 4 gold?

Also, AGOTCards is still down for me, is it region based now or something?

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WWDrakey said:

 

I think the funniest thing with GG seems to be that the whining vs. teching -ratio has been completely different than with previous strong techs... Instead of people increasingly running more stuff that would work against it, people just look at the cards that would work against it and go "Nah". With Wildlings the talk of NPE didn't occur before it had won at least a few Tourneys (there were Wildlings at GenCon, but didn't win... I think the first Wildling wins were around Black Friday, Stahleck, French Nationals). Before the expirements prove it, it's just a hypothesis... :)

 

 

Hey, what did you expect ? It's MARTELL after all ! All their cards deserve to be IMMEDIATELY restricted and/or banned  gui%C3%B1o.gif !

To the pitchforks ! Let us finish this once and for all ! BURN ALL MARTELL HOUSE CARDS !

Burn is, by the way, quite effective against the GG nonsense. Myrcella is so ... fragile.

 

 

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 I honestly think this is getting kinda out of hand. There are quite a few cheap Martell nobles now. Have any of you play against this deck? I'm not talking about a Martell deck that throws it in as an afterthought, I'm talking about deck that centers around this. It has 3x paper shield, he calls it thinking, to protect GG and its nigh impossible to actually get a challenge through against them. My Sally was discarded as soon as he came out with discenssion. Granted that was luck of the draw on that one, but still. Unless I'm playing Targ burn or Stark for the Frozen Solid/Freezing Rain, it is going to be a ***** to try and fight off that deck.

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Why don't we just wait and see ? Give Martell players a chance to prove that this is as broken as people seem to believe. If they indeed dominate the tournament scene during the next months, okay, do something about it.

But I do not believe they will.

Yes, it seems to be quite strong. But it looses against a lot of popular decks out there: Stark Siege (Fear of Winter, Frozen Solid, Meera Reed and a HORDE of cheap + powerful characters) , Greyjoy Winter (ever tried to replay your nobles round after round with a negative income gui%C3%B1o.gif?), Targ Burn. 

Greyjoy Winter is the INCARNATION of a NPE. They do not return your characters to your hand, but prevent you from ever playing them ! I have not  heard of any protests lately against this ugly deck ? 

I am also quite sure that Lannister Shadows hyperkneel is stronger than GG and also locks your characters down , but where are the pitchfork carriers here ?

There are people in my meta who really do not like to play against Greyjoy Winter and complain if it is brought to casual play. Fine, so we do not play those decks in casual matches. But everybody accepts that they are a viable option for tournament decks and in preparation for a tournament, has to deal with their existance.

Why can't we just treat Martell and their GG in the same way ? Why must this house always have their cards errata'ed or restricted before they even get a chance to be put to the test?

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Staton said:

 I honestly think this is getting kinda out of hand. There are quite a few cheap Martell nobles now. Have any of you play against this deck? I'm not talking about a Martell deck that throws it in as an afterthought, I'm talking about deck that centers around this. It has 3x paper shield, he calls it thinking, to protect GG and its nigh impossible to actually get a challenge through against them. My Sally was discarded as soon as he came out with discenssion. Granted that was luck of the draw on that one, but still. Unless I'm playing Targ burn or Stark for the Frozen Solid/Freezing Rain, it is going to be a ***** to try and fight off that deck.

Staton said:

 I honestly think this is getting kinda out of hand. There are quite a few cheap Martell nobles now. Have any of you play against this deck? I'm not talking about a Martell deck that throws it in as an afterthought, I'm talking about deck that centers around this. It has 3x paper shield, he calls it thinking, to protect GG and its nigh impossible to actually get a challenge through against them. My Sally was discarded as soon as he came out with discenssion. Granted that was luck of the draw on that one, but still. Unless I'm playing Targ burn or Stark for the Frozen Solid/Freezing Rain, it is going to be a ***** to try and fight off that deck.

You left out almost any GJ deck, since nothing Martell has will work against Newly Made Lord. And trigger cancel hurts like hell, when your nobles just end up in your hand without any benefit. So... the deck ends up being quite 50/50, I think. Targ, GJ and Stark don't have much problem, but it sure makes life painful for Bara and non-GG Martell (still think this is bloody funny). Lanni should be able to keep up due to draw, somehow, but it might be close.  

Oh, I do agree that the location is bloody painful, had to construct a heavily GG-reliant deck and see how it rolls due to all of the fuss... Trying Bara Knights against that made me think that I really-really-really can't rely on Direct Assault as the only location control anymore. Although, the Lanni Iron Throne and Martell & Targ Tourney Grounds have had me thinking the same thing anyways. And GJ has taken me behind the shed so many times lately that I've lost count. *Shrug* Seems that extremely powerful and cheap unique locations are the new shiny, and Bara wasn't given any. Well, any new ones (Massey's Hook). 

Now, would 2-3x Salladhor + 2-3x Fiery Kiss work? Hmm...

EDIT: Looks like Aegon beat me to it. I have to agree with everything that he says... Especially about the GJ stuff, now THAT if something is totally silly. 

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 While I do agree that GJ does match up well against it, its still not something that I see as a valid argument. I feel like there should be a good (if subpar compared to the in house options) neutral answer to a location.I shouldn't have to pick one of the three houses if I want to be able to compete. That's just not balanced, IMO. 

Now the thing that I don't mind about GJ Choke is that its a cohesive deck that took time and effort to perfect and still requires quite a bit of correct play to make it work. So if I get beat by it, I know its because I was out played. GG is one card. It takes no effort to fit into a deck and almost no thought to play. I bounce my guy to bounce your best guy. 

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 i say everyone here who thinkks gg is  so uber powerful and cannot be beat should play that deck instead of complaining about it. if it really is that strong, you can have a deck with which you will never lose. that is what we are all hoping our next build will be.

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 But that's why we are complaining about the deck. I don't care if its super strong and broken, as long as I can play answers to that deck without having to choose a certain counter deck or certain house. Maybe you are OK with that, but I am not. Which is why I bring up my concerns. However, how about we just use your approach for every card or deck that pops up. How about we unban and unrestrict every card. I mean the cards aren't broken if EVERYONE uses them, right?

Also at what point did anyone say that GG couldn't be beat? No one is saying that! I hate how no one here ever bothers to read a god **** thing. Oh more noobs QQ'ing about some card that I personally don't feel is too strong. So I'm just going to assume they think it can't be beat and needs to be banned. What a bunch of scrubs. Well how about you read my arguments and then try and address my individual points. Or better yet how about I use this deck against a Baratheon deck you have. Then after the game I'll say "GG baddie. Too easy."

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HoyaLawya said:

 

 i say everyone here who thinkks gg is  so uber powerful and cannot be beat should play that deck instead of complaining about it. if it really is that strong, you can have a deck with which you will never lose. that is what we are all hoping our next build will be.

 

 

Is it? I don't want to play the flavor of the month. I want to build my own deck, and I want to have fun doing so. GG decks seem very boring to me. I don't care if it's effective, I want something more engaging. (Similar to Staton's sentiment above).

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A deck built purely to abuse Ghaston Grey is by no means unbeatable, it is however very difficult for most houses to effectively handle it. 


The location control that is readily available to all houses will not work on Ghaston Grey, any suggestion that Price of War, Condemned by the Council or Pyromancers Apprentice have even the remotest chance to deal with it are laughable.  You might be allowed to win the miliary challenge that you need to win before you can play Price of War but you can be **** sure that the War Crest you needed wasn't in the challenge at the end.  Win an intrigue challenge against Martell that has Ghaston Grey in full swing, HAHA.  If you beat that then you have for sure He Calls it Thinking to deal with and potentially Paper Shield as well.  If the card in shadows has a chance of being a Pyro then I have gold ready for it or HCiT in hand. 


The biggest location haters are Newly Made Lord since it cannot be stopped which makes Greyjoy a tougher fight, then Sala but with Vary's, Dissension and VB you are looking at one use only.  Frozen Solid can slow you down if you went first and can't respond with a Maester of Lemonwood until next turn.


 


This deck is too easy to build, too easy to play and too hard for most houses to deal with, certainly in any consistent way.  If all your options here are for handling this are to play it or play the deck it cannot beat then that destroys what I think is one of the most varied environments of any card game I have played.  GG is NOT unbeatable however, in my opinion the path the beating it is one that will lead to a very dull environment and overall damage peoples experience of the game.

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 Yeah a character swarm deck that doesn't rely on any one character does extremely well against GG, but again, I don't want to have to play a certain deck or build. I feel like if everything is balanced there should be in house or neutral answers that I can use in any house or build and be fine. I understand that I have to use answers to GG, but when all the answers are house specific or too ineffective to deal with the issue then its a problem.

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Sure the deck is a sumbitch to play against, but how is it going to win?  Is the deck planning on waiting until a late Too the Spears turn?  Or what other win push are people seeing?  True this screws up a rush deck something fierce, but what of a control build?

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