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jpomz

Which books are the crunchy ones, rather then modules?

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I think I have them all, but not too sure. I've got the radicals handbook, core rulebook, inquisitors handbook, book of judgement, ascension, daemon hunter, disciples of the dark gods, and blood of martyrs. Am I missing any?

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jpomz said:

I think I have them all, but not too sure. I've got the radicals handbook, core rulebook, inquisitors handbook, book of judgement, ascension, daemon hunter, disciples of the dark gods, and blood of martyrs. Am I missing any?


 

A question on the side: was is meant with "crunchy"? I am not a native speaker, the adjective is one I would apply to i.e. cornflakes.  I heared it used like "rules heavy". Is this the meaning?

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Morangias said:

 

"Crunch" - rules and rules-related aspects of the game.

"Fluff" - info on setting, characters etc., basically anything that doesn't tie into game rules directly.

 

 

Terms which I personally detest, because they contain the implication that the background is essentially unimportant and exists more to fill up space than for any other purpose, while the rules are the "solid" part of the equation. I could understand their use within the often tournament-obsessed wargaming community... but when they made the jump to RPGs, a tiny part of me died in despair...

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

 

. . .  a tiny part of me died in despair...

 

 

I had one of those moments when I overheard two teenagers at a con looking at a dice booth. Their only RPG expereince was 4E....

Teen #1 "Look at these! Character builder (loaded) dice."

Teen #2 "What are those for?"

Teen #1 "So you can roll an 18 in all your stats."

Teen #2 "Why do you need an 18 in all your stats? You only need two high stats, none of the others matter."

Needless to say a cold shiver went down my spine. I think I saw an adventurer shed a single tear out of the corner of his eye.

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Thank you guys, very helpful. Also, I'd rather own the crunchie bits rather then the fluffy ones first because i know alot of the fluff, and it's harder to come up with balanced crunch for me.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Morangias said:

 

"Crunch" - rules and rules-related aspects of the game.

"Fluff" - info on setting, characters etc., basically anything that doesn't tie into game rules directly.

 

 

Terms which I personally detest, because they contain the implication that the background is essentially unimportant and exists more to fill up space than for any other purpose, while the rules are the "solid" part of the equation. I could understand their use within the often tournament-obsessed wargaming community... but when they made the jump to RPGs, a tiny part of me died in despair...

 

Why not reading/writing novels instead?

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Terms which I personally detest, because they contain the implication that the background is essentially unimportant and exists more to fill up space than for any other purpose, while the rules are the "solid" part of the equation. I could understand their use within the often tournament-obsessed wargaming community... but when they made the jump to RPGs, a tiny part of me died in despair...

Wow... Little pieces of you die very easily. I hope there's lots of you?

 

Aaanyway, you're both jumping to conclusions and having a total WRONGBADFUN moment. I mean, really? Despair? Over a different playstyle? Or rather, just the perception of it? That sounds kind of unhealthy, I think.

Know what I did earlier this week? I went out and bought every last crunchy book in the 40K lines that I didn't already have. Crunchy ones specifically. Not because the rules tend to be front and centre, or even very much involved when we play. I do love skirmish games and crawlers, but I also play both skirmish games (40K) and crawlers (Descent mostly), so I neither need nor want it in my RPGs. But I digress. The reason I went out and bought all the rulebooks I didn't have, is that the 40K RPG line is a very crunchy system(s), but also one that has seen some minor, but significant tweaks across the lines, and one that is full of weird gaps. Moreover, it's now scattered across something approaching 20 different rulebooks.

All of that, combined with some terribly, terribly planned and forced vacation time, convinced me that I should simply get a hold of the entirety of the so-far published rules and write the entire enormous mess into a single, eventually coherent, fully interlinked and referenced rules compendium. And of course, there's the two further and far from insignificant advantages that I can fully integrate our fairly extensive houserules, and translate the whole thing into the local language while I'm at it.

So you see, there are perfectly innocuous - if slightly demented - reasons a good little drama queen RP'er might go looking for crunch.

But even if there wasn't, you're still kind of doing the IamcentreofuniverseandallthatisrightandtrueinthisworldandeveryonemustdoasIdo thing. And that's both kind of a silly waste of your time, and also not terribly nice to other people. At least not when they're respectful enough to not criticise you for the kind of fun you have, however wrong they think you're having it.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Morangias said:

 

"Crunch" - rules and rules-related aspects of the game.

"Fluff" - info on setting, characters etc., basically anything that doesn't tie into game rules directly.

 

 

Terms which I personally detest, because they contain the implication that the background is essentially unimportant and exists more to fill up space than for any other purpose, while the rules are the "solid" part of the equation. I could understand their use within the often tournament-obsessed wargaming community... but when they made the jump to RPGs, a tiny part of me died in despair...

 

I totally agree N0-1_H3r3.

Although i use the terms myself, i agree with you they seem to denigrate the most important part of any game - the background/setting.  The rules are nice but really not even neccessary.

To quote the great Gary Gygax, 

'The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.'

And

'A DM (GM) only rolls the dice because of the noise they make.'

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H.B.M.C. said:

 

Kain McDogal said:

So buying 40K RPG Books is no fun anymore.



How do you even begin to imply that from what I said? serio.gif

BYE

 

 

 

Because if every freelancer thinks that Fluff should beat Crunch and send in his manuscripts with this motive there is no more reason for me to invest any money in future 40K RPG-publications.

As I've written somewhere else there is already enough Fluff available in form of novels and other background material, the only thing missing to play an 40K RPG were rules. In my opinion there wasn't even any need to bring in a detailed view of the Callixis Sector, the Koronus Expanse or the Jericho Reach, because if I spin a story as a GM with an epic theme there is always the risk that this will be killed by a future publication. If  an Inquisitor uses Exterminatus on a specific Planet in my story it is very problematic if a future sourcebook reveals, that this planet is in fact the secret base of an inquisitional Ordo and some Alternate Carreers are based on the premise that this planet still exists. Background material shouldn't be to detailed and Fluff and Crunch should at least be balanced 50/50.

Of course there are unique RPG-Settings like Cthulhutech, Heavy Gear or Jovian Chronicles which need a lot of introduction, because there isn't any other source available, but this is not the case with W40K which is next to Star Wars one of the most documented SF-Settings around.

In know there are many people here who think differently and it's a matter of taste which approach someone prefers, but it's a matter of fact that an W40K RPG-Book costs at least 30,-€  and a novel only costs me 5,-€ apart from this there is a lot of Fluff on the net for free.

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Kain McDogal said:

the only thing missing to play an 40K RPG were rules

'The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.'  - (The Great) Gary Gygax.

 

Kain McDogal said:

Background material shouldn't be to detailed

 

*Stunned silence*

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Luddite said:

 

 

 

'The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.'  - (The Great) Gary Gygax.

 

 

 

 

 

So they don't need any RPG-Books for a richly illustrated SF/Fantasy-Setting like W40K!

 

 

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Kain McDogal said:

So they don't need any RPG-Books for a richly illustrated SF/Fantasy-Setting like W40K!

 

I don't think anyone would argue that RPG books are a necessity by any stretch of the imagination.

They're a luxury, something that's nice to have, but far from something that people need.

But that doesn't mean that they're not something that people want or would like to have, and just because people don't hold the same values as you with regards to what material is worthwhile and what isn't, doesn't make their opinions any less valid.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Kain McDogal said:

So they don't need any RPG-Books for a richly illustrated SF/Fantasy-Setting like W40K!

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone would argue that RPG books are a necessity by any stretch of the imagination.

They're a luxury, something that's nice to have, but far from something that people need.

But that doesn't mean that they're not something that people want or would like to have, and just because people don't hold the same values as you with regards to what material is worthwhile and what isn't, doesn't make their opinions any less valid.

 

Agreed.

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