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Budmilka_fr

Volkmar VS My life for the Hold

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Hi,

Small question here. I have Volkmar in play, and my opponent want to sacrifice one of his unit with My life for the hold :

 

Volkmar's text : If a unit would enter its owner’s discard pile or return to its owner’s hand from play, you may instead put it on the bottom of its owner’s deck.

My life for the hold : Action: Sacrifice a unit to cancel all damage dealt to your capital until the end of the turn

 

My opponent sacrifices his unit, but I choose to put it on the bottom of his deck with Volkmar's constant effect. The FAQ says about Sacrifice :

Sacrifice
Sacrifice means to put a card that you control into its owner’s discard pile. It cannot be cancelled or prevented by other effects.

 

So here is my question : if the unit goes on the bottom of it's owner's deck, does it mean it is not sacrificed, and so you cannot trigger the action of My life for the Hold ?

Another way : if sacrifice is absolute, the unit must be in the discard pile, and so Volkmar cannot trigger his effect ?

 

Thanks for your answers.

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Last way : my life for the hold is effective and volkmar can trigger his action.

The additional cost of my life for the hold has been paid and volkmar can put the sacrified card on the bottom of it's owner deck. Volkmar effect does not cancel nor prevent sacrifice he just "change the state of the card after it has been sacrified".

I am not saying that's the correct answer but I think it's another way to answer your question (And  I guess that's the good way)

 

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I don't know. I think the sacrifice cost isn't paid because the sacrificed unit never goes to the discard pile and goes on the bottom of the deck.

In your example, if the cost is paid, and the unit sacrificed goes in the discard pile, then it's too late for Volkmar to trigger his ability.

That's the way I see it, and I wasn't sure whether Volkmar's ability could be considered as something to "prevent" sacrifice.

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I got an answer from Lukas :

When a card is sacrificed it goes directly to the discard pile. It cannot be canceled or prevented by other effects, including Volkmar, unless the effect explicitly says it can be used with sacrificed units.

 

So Volkmar does prevent, and so cannot stop any sacrifice.

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First of, I have no idea what the proper use of this action would be. I'd say that the act of sacrificing is the intention of putting your unit in the discard pile from play. That means that My Life for the Hold should work as normal. Volkar then says that instead of going into the pile, that unit is on the bottom of your deck. I get that the confusion is coming from the rules text on sacrifice, but the actual sacrifice itself wasn't stopped, just the final destination of the unit card. But I haven't done enough digging for me to be confident that my answer is correct, so I hope others weigh in.

I'm going to ask another Volkar question in a separate thread so I don't derail this one.

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Budmilka_fr said:

 

I got an answer from Lukas :

When a card is sacrificed it goes directly to the discard pile. It cannot be canceled or prevented by other effects, including Volkmar, unless the effect explicitly says it can be used with sacrificed units.

 

So Volkmar does prevent, and so cannot stop any sacrifice.

 

 

This ruling makes no sense to me.  Volkmar directly states that units that would enter the discard pile go to the bottom instead.  Even if it goes "directly" there, I don't see how that prevents his effect from working.

Can you post your full question to him here, so I can see the full context of his response?

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I simply copy/pasted my first post in my mail to Lukas.

I'd say that Volkmar's ability does prevent sacrifice, because Sacrifice requires the unit to enter the discard pile, and with Volkmar, it just can't.

I didn't know Volkmar's ability was considered "preventing", that's why I asked.

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Entropy42 said:

 

Budmilka_fr said:

 

I got an answer from Lukas :

When a card is sacrificed it goes directly to the discard pile. It cannot be canceled or prevented by other effects, including Volkmar, unless the effect explicitly says it can be used with sacrificed units.

 

So Volkmar does prevent, and so cannot stop any sacrifice.

 

 

This ruling makes no sense to me.

 

Indeed. This would make Volkmar stop any sacrifice unit actions from woking and I think this is not what this card is intended to do.

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Budmilka_fr said:

I simply copy/pasted my first post in my mail to Lukas.

I'd say that Volkmar's ability does prevent sacrifice, because Sacrifice requires the unit to enter the discard pile, and with Volkmar, it just can't.

I didn't know Volkmar's ability was considered "preventing", that's why I asked.

When I read Sacrifice, I don't see it as requiring the unit to enter the discard pile, just telling you that is where it goes when you sacrifice it. 

Units that are destroyed also go to your discard pile, preventing them from entering the discard pile with Volkmar does not mean that they aren't destroyed, just that they aren't in your discard pile.   Why would it be any different with sacrifice?

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Sacrifice is absolute (cannot be canceled or prevented) while destroy is not.

And yes, a unit that would be destroyed but goes to the bottom of the deck with Volkmar is no longer destroyed. Still, you can do that because destroy can be canceled or prevented. That's why Volkmar's text says "if a unit would enter", so the unit gone back to the bottom have never entered the discard pile the same way as a destroyed unit.

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Sorry for my last answer, I quoted the wrong post.

Budmilka_fr said:

 

Sacrifice is absolute (cannot be canceled or prevented) while destroy is not.

And yes, a unit that would be destroyed but goes to the bottom of the deck with Volkmar is no longer destroyed. Still, you can do that because destroy can be canceled or prevented. That's why Volkmar's text says "if a unit would enter", so the unit gone back to the bottom have never entered the discard pile the same way as a destroyed unit.

 

 

So by this logic if you have Volkmar and your opponent is playing for example chaos, has Numberless Graves on the table and snipes multiple of your units with Sorcerer of Tzeentch, Warhounds, Plague Bomb etc. you would say he doesn't draw a single card, because although yours units left play ("were destroyed") they didn't finally end up in a discard pile?

I'm with Entropy here, Volkmar only changes unit's destination, not the means by which unit left play.

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Yes, in your example, these units leave play, but are not destroyed, so it won't trigger Numberless Graves.

Faq, p10 :

Destroy
Destroy means to put a card that is in play into it’s owner’s discard pile
.

Again, Volkmar says "would enter...instead", so it is not a change of destination. It changes the way the unit "dies".

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 but units can enter the discard pile by means that they werent destroyed like as a developement and discards from the hand so maybe when it enters is just to take all these ways into account not just if its destroyed.

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Budmilka_fr said:

Yes, in your example, these units leave play, but are not destroyed, so it won't trigger Numberless Graves.

Faq, p10 :

Destroy
Destroy means to put a card that is in play into it’s owner’s discard pile
.

Again, Volkmar says "would enter...instead", so it is not a change of destination. It changes the way the unit "dies".

If Volkmar prevented destroy/sacrfice, shouldn't his text be "if a unit would be destroyed/sacrificed, place it on the bottom of its owner's deck instead"?  That, to me, is a replacement effect that actually prevents the unit from being destroyed. 

I really can't believe that this card completely prevents units from being destroyed. 

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I have really many troubles with this rulling too.

 

There is no real definition of destruction in the rules just :

Hit Points: The amount of damage a unit can
take. If a unit has as many damage tokens as it has
hit points, that unit is destroyed and is placed in its
owner’s discard pile.

 

We can found for sacrifice :

Sacrifice
Any time a player is instructed to sacrifice a card, the card is placed in its owner’s discard pile. A sacrifice is absolute, and cannot be cancelled by other effects.

 

In the first case it's obvious that placing the unit into the discard pile is just a consequence of the destruction. (This does not at all define what is a destroyed unit, a unit is destroyed when it has as many damage token as hit point)

In the case of the sacrifice it's like Lukas considers that placing the card into the discard pile is a part of what is defining the sacrifice and not just only the consequence of the sacrifice. (but for me a unit is sacrificed when a card effect "tell me" to sacrifice a unit)

That really make no sense to me... Even reading en re-reading sacrifice text information...

 

I was really playing like :

Cause : Sacrifice / destroyed

Consequence : place card into discard pile.

That's not because you change the consequence by any way, that you cancel the cause and why I was playing like that :

"Last way : my life for the hold is effective and volkmar can trigger his action."

 

Can't talk about that, it makes me sad .... :P

 

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IMO, i think Volkmar didn't cancele or prevente sacrifice, it just change the direction. It make sense to me to explain it as from "sacrifice to discard pile" to "sacrifice to bottom of deck".

But if the official answer is Volkmar can't effect sacrifice, there is no chiose, I must accept it.

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Good news everyone.  I talked to Lukas about this, and he revisited his previous answer and changed his mind:

After much consideration I admit to have originally answered the question incorrectly. The rules about sacrificing not being able to be prevented or cancelled should not apply to the unit entering the discard pile, but only the unit being sacrificed. The result of the sacrifice is that the unit goes to the discard pile, but this is separate from the act of sacrificing itself. Volkmar will in fact work with a unit being sacrificed, and this does not invalidate the sacrifice. Likewise, Volkmar's ability will not invalidate a unit being destroyed. This will be cleared up in the next FAQ.

So Volkmar (and other things that change where a unit goes when destroyed/sacrificed) do not affect the destroy/sacrifice itself.

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