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Organizational structures?

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I made a search by the forum and did not see any post about company or platoon structure for Allies nor Axis troops. I think it could be cool, as a mid/long term project, to have (at least an approximation to) one such list as a reference for current and future players (and buyers).

What I'd like is not an army list based on playability-competition but both on "fluff" or common sense and economy ("real" one). I think it could be a kind of a guide for players to get a logically-looking force and get to play historically looking scenarios/campaigns. And yes I know it may be kind of a paradox...

Do you get my point? Could we have a TOE based on what one can buy and which looks good in the terms I've posted?

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 Sounds like a good Idea, I was looking to the turret numbers on my Axis walker to go along with the real number that were used in WWII but I have not really found to much info on the numbering system beyond a wall of text on Facebook that I  have yet to finish comprehending. But I would like to try to blend all of my squads together into some sort of Kampfgruppe.

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I'm think they may come in Dust warfare. Something needs to fill the book!

However army structures become more important in unit activation games and as far as I know DW will be army activation (for reasons beyond my comprehension).

Generally the points values seem to work well. Only a few of the units appear to not worth taking (most are priced really well) . 

However with all activation games you can get a significant advantage by have long card decks.  Thus you can break the game buy fielding lots and lots of very cheap infanttry and then having elites at the bottom of your deck.

Underpowered units include

LIGHT ASSAULT WALKER ''HONEY''

LIGHT PANZER WALKER ''HERMANN''

MEDIUM PANZER WALKER ''LUTHER''

AXIS GORILLAS (Without Marcus)

 

 

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I don't see DUST breaking with a larger number of small units for an activation edge.  While an activation edge can help sometimes, the weaker units are not getting you the same strength or concentration in attacks as an equivalent point value of stronger units.

Three observer squads can generate 6 attack dice versus Armor 2 at 2 dice per activation.  Recon squads generate 7 or 8 attack dice, and add anti-tank capability (that can also increase their attack dice).  Against Armor 3, three 13F squads generate one more dice than the Recon Boys not counting the UGL's, but still miss out on that capability for a stronger strike.

The observers get more power out of cover, but with two additional units for the same points, finding cover in range to be effective can be more difficult.

You're trading a decreased amount of firepower and anti-tank capability with greater problems concentrating their firepower for an activation edge and improved use of cover. 

It can help against weaker players, but the better the player, the more the lost capabilities will come back to haunt you.  That activation edge can drop fairly quickly if you try to use the observers in combat, and you lose more if you don't use them.

For the original idea on thie thread, there are advantages and disadvantages to army lists. 

A structured TO&E can give people a nice core concept for tactics, but it can also be very limiting.  While there were a lot of organized force battles, individual battles on the scale of DUST also found many units fighting while mixed with elements of other units working for the same objectives.  If play became restricted to a specifiec TO&E, it would make the simulation less effective, and game play less interesting.

A structured TO&E can give players a nice core for building forces, but it is also no better than the tactical sense of the person who creates the TO&E.  I'm an ex-soldier, and some of the TO&E's I've seen developed for wargames are laughable.  A TO&E is supposed to make sense for maintaining a unit, with the understanding that units may be seconded out for combat units where the garrison TO&E is different.  An example would be a battalion versus a battalion combat team.  In garrison, an infantry battalion is all infantry, but a battalion combat team pairs infantry with armor normally, with either 2:1 infantry to armor for an infantry combat team, and 1:2 for an armor combat team.  TO&E's are for logistics, and combat teams are for missions.

If a game TO&E doesn't address how the units are used, it becomes a problem instead of an aid.  If it addresses the issue, but does it poorly, it becomes an even greater problem. 

DUST gives players great flexibility in how they field their armies.  That's a great strength, because it lets players find out what works, instead of someone who may be a far less capable player decreeing how they should work.

 

Aelfwine, That's a good find.  I hadn't seen that good a representation of German unit markings online before, and it saves typing it in from my books.  Thanks.

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 I think FFG should illustrate what an appropriately balanced Company, as well as Battalion looks like. That way we an see how rare some of the units should be. Such as jump squads, and how much of a real force they really represent. 

 

With my IG army in 40k I try to keep an appropriate balance going for my themed Battle Company. 

 

Well, for every TOE you almost always have an M-TOE. So each collector can put their own flair into their organization. 

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 Well you guys need to remember that DT is not a big battle of armies game like W40K, it's more like a spec-ops units meet a spec-ops unit. Yea, they have some armor units and normal soldiers taken away from normal armies but still it's more ASCOM heroes + their cannon fodder VS blutekreutz + their CS. SSU will use NKWD units so still, we don't see normal army units i guess..

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It is nice to have a historical basis for these units to add some personality to them. And of course, purely organic TOEs, MTOES and my big toe will not suffice and nor did they back then. I think it makes sense to apply some small unit tactics as exemplified by 6AD at Muehlhausen, where Combat Commands A & B were broken down down into three task forces each. CCA was tank heavy and CCB was infantry heavy. Mix and match was played dividing up organic units to fill functioning supporting requirements. In more open terrain one might wish to use a faster moving, armor heavy unit, while in town fighting would require more infantry. Two examples of the six task forces are listed below:

CCA: TF 15

15th Tank Battalion (-1 M4 Company)

Armored Infantry Company

Tank Destroyer Platoon

Armored Engineer Platoon

212th Armored Field Artillery Battalion

 

or

 

CCB: TF 50

50th Armored Infantry Battalion (-1 Company)

Medium Tank Company

Tank Destroyer Platoon

Armored Engineer Platoon

231st Armored Field Artillery Battalion

 

Yes, this is still heavy for Dust Tactics, but maybe not for Dust Warfare. We will have to wait and see. But the point is working down to manageable levels for individual and team play which have some personality but still function in the within the framework of the game, while allowing players to have a variety of unit names and histories to draw upon.

There are so many WW II units available that everyone should be able to have their own claim to fame. And of course, it is supposed to be 1947 or later which should add some flexibility to assembling some fun units.

Personally, I am partial to 1AD as I spent 11 straight years with them and had the pleasure to be able to interview, in an official capacity, many WW II veteran's of the divsion during that time. So, it is nice to have names to go with vehicles and figures.

 

 

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