Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Major Mishap

Luther

Recommended Posts

I'm just wondering if anybody still uses Luther as a walker of choice?  It's a pretty poor machine, with one close combat and one light-weight unlimited range weapon it's not any good for either and most of thetime only one weapon can be used.  Since the release of light walkers I've not fielded a Luther with the lights being cheaper and packing more punch.  So anybody still use them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Luther still has its role in the current state of the game. It's a good all-around walker. It can take on both infantry and walkers at either unlimited range or close combat. Sure, it's not the best at anti-walker, but it's pretty versatile. If you can spare the AP, sure, it might be good to take a Heinrich and a Ludwig and a Loth. But with just the Luther you get a little bit of each, which allows you a lot of flexibility during the battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I haven't played cerberus yet but i guess Luther schould be usefull in CC city battles, that's what it was designed to do ;) So if not in sscenaros, than maybe in some player-made maps it schould pay the cost;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Luther has some advantages over the light walkers.  While it costs more, consider these points:

The Hans is good against vehicles once it closes, but after its initial Scout Vehicle bonus, it only moves 2 and shoots 3 spaces.  Against infantry, its Granate Werfer is good against units in cover, but against a heavy infantry squad, it will only be attacking with 4 dice.  It is a big threat to vehicles once it closes, but your opponent will know that.

The Hermann is very weak against infantry, but carries a 6 space 1/3 attack against vehicles.  Again, your opponent knows that, and will act accordingly.  Expect a lot of interest from infantry if you field one.

The Heinrich gives equal anti-infantry capability to the Luther's 50mm gun, and is better against aircraft and light vehicles at long range.

All three light vehicles have two significant disadvantages to the Luther; they are all Armor 3, and they all have one fewer damage point.  To add another, the Luther has Self Repair.

The Luther can generate a 9 dice attack against infantry Armor 2 at range 4, and a 6 dice attack against infantry Armor 3.  Those attacks increase to 13 and 10 dice at range 1.  That's significantly better then the light walkers.

Against vehicles, the Hans has more short ranged power, and the Heinrich more long ranged power against light vehicles, but the Luther maintains long ranged capability through vehicle Armor 4, and anti-vehicle capability at range one against any vehicle, while also having anti-aircraft capability.

Charge only comes into play with the Kampfzange, but that should not be forgotten when considering what the Luther can do.

Compared to the other medium walkers, it is better against infantry than the Ludwig.  The Lothar gives better damage, but has to reload between attacks, which limits it to some degree.  The Loth generates even damage against just about every opponent, but is very range limited.

In conclusion, compared to the light walkers, the Luther is better against infantry, good against vehicles, harder to destroy, and has Self Repair and Charge.  Compared to the medium walkers, the Luther is a better anti-infantry unit, with Self Repair to keep it going, and Charge for when it's needed.

If your opponent uses a lot of infantry, the Luther becomes a very definite possibility.  Against a balanced foe, it still retains good functionality if it's used well.  The more terrain on the table, the better the Luther is as a walker choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charge is a really poor skill for a walker, if it were fast, I would field it more often. And in comparison to the mickey which is its closest allied counter part, it gets way over shadowed, the only advantage is unlimited range, and unli-range is only good in open maps. You can field a mickey on open maps, or closequarter maps and it will still be effective.

Think of it this way, just from looking at the Luther's stat cards it might seem like it's a great jack-of-all trades unit, but the reality is, if you field it in an open area, he is great with his one range, but his charge and his Kamplagze would suck balls, since setting him back is the ideal tactic, if the opponent reaches him fine, take a claw to the face, great. But in CQB, his lack of open LOS, and his poor maneuverability becomes a problem, even with charge. Why? he can never catch up to infantry units, and most allied units (well the ones often fielded anyways) can more or less destroy him instantly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tried him last night, jack of all trades master of none comes to mined.  Totally outgunned by anything he faced should he step out from cover and had zero chance of contacting and would have to chance without standing in the open and putting himself in range of allied bazooka's.  That loss of a square movement for charging has crucified this and the Loth, they can't charge without first coming under sustained fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In theory I love the unit, in practice however I find it gets destroyed fairly easy unless fielded on terrain heavy maps. If that happens however then the U range it has is also auto-countered.

What disturbs me the most with the unit is that the scrooge self-repair ability: WIth a single die and just a 33% chance of self-repairing per own turn it seems it is under-powered. I would rather see some of the following alternatives instead for how self-repair of it could work:

  1. Roll 2 dice for each damage instead of 1.
  2. Roll just 1 die per damage, but do it at end of every players turn and not just your own.
  3. Roll 1 but let the miss count as a hit and the hit as a miss, giving it 66% of succeeding (which still isn't that high for an ability you are supposed to have. Say you have 3 damage and roll 3 dice, in average you would during that turn manage to self repair 2 hp.) This could sound overpowered, and maybe is, but Iäm not sure given the other drawbacks the unit has and given it's not hard to kill of an armor 4 medium walker.

I often field the unit but question my choice every time I do as it has never performed as well as I hoped for. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uhh, no thank you. The mickey's a powerhouse as it is right now, and doing that to both luther and the mickey just make them both juggernauts in the field, more so the mickey...

 

Just give the luther fast, or make his weapon ignore cover, or add damage output, or make it cheaper, but not change self-repair to that.. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see the Luther as designed to dominate anything.  I don't see anything in DUST that dominates, which is one of the things I like about the game.

Charge is not as powerful as it used to be, but it makes more sense now; why would a unit be able to consistently move faster only sometimes, but not always?  Assault I can understand as a one time extra effort it takes time to recover from, but being able to move three when charging, but two other times, makes no sense.  It also left open the cheese idea of charging out of range units for movement.  I'm glad for the change.

The Luther is good against infantry, and very good if it can maneuver to use the Kampfzange as well as the 50mm and MG44.  Infantry can kill it, just as infantry can kill any medium walker, which is harder than killing a light walker.  Self Repair makes the Luther slightly more survivable, but not invulnerable.

The Luther gains functionality as the size of the battle grows.  In a small battle, having a bigger long ranged threat from the Lothar or Ludwig is more worth the points, as infantry can be used to deal with infantry.  Only in very congested terrain, where no walkers might be a functional choice, could the Luther be a better choice than the others.  You would retain some long ranged capability, while improving your short ranged anti-infantry capability.

In a larger battle, the Luther's ability to threaten walkers, while giving better and longer ranged anti-infantry attacks, can be much more important.

It isn't an automatic choice over other walkers, but it can be a very functional choice if used well within its capabilities.

The Mickey is faster and more maneuverable, but loses out on range and the ability to damage anything heavier than itself, and will not be as effective against aircraft.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gimp said:

I don't see the Luther as designed to dominate anything.  I don't see anything in DUST that dominates, which is one of the things I like about the game.

Charge is not as powerful as it used to be, but it makes more sense now; why would a unit be able to consistently move faster only sometimes, but not always?  Assault I can understand as a one time extra effort it takes time to recover from, but being able to move three when charging, but two other times, makes no sense.  It also left open the cheese idea of charging out of range units for movement.  I'm glad for the change.

The Luther is good against infantry, and very good if it can maneuver to use the Kampfzange as well as the 50mm and MG44.  Infantry can kill it, just as infantry can kill any medium walker, which is harder than killing a light walker.  Self Repair makes the Luther slightly more survivable, but not invulnerable.

The Luther gains functionality as the size of the battle grows.  In a small battle, having a bigger long ranged threat from the Lothar or Ludwig is more worth the points, as infantry can be used to deal with infantry.  Only in very congested terrain, where no walkers might be a functional choice, could the Luther be a better choice than the others.  You would retain some long ranged capability, while improving your short ranged anti-infantry capability.

In a larger battle, the Luther's ability to threaten walkers, while giving better and longer ranged anti-infantry attacks, can be much more important.

It isn't an automatic choice over other walkers, but it can be a very functional choice if used well within its capabilities.

The Mickey is faster and more maneuverable, but loses out on range and the ability to damage anything heavier than itself, and will not be as effective against aircraft.

 

I disagree about the dominate thing, lots of dust models dominate over a specific class example:

Mickey dominates infantry. Ludwig dominates Mickey, Tank Busters dominate Ludwig, Zombies dominate Tank Busters and the list goes on...

 

Maybe you misunderstood what I meant by dominate. Probably my fault for using such an extreme word. The luther is good against infantry, you said it yourself, that is what I meant. The problem is this, the luther is great against recon boys, the gunners, to an extent bot hunters, and death dealers, almost all of which can damage him, but most of the time he will kill them before getting killed. Notice that the units mentioned above are almost never used in games, with the preferance of BBQ squads, hellboys, grim reapers, and tank busters which, save for the grims, can insta-kill the Luther up close. On an open area (without covers), sure Luther slaughters them all, but in a CQB area, ****, the Luther becomes a waste of space because of it's lack of maneuverability, even with charge, sure you can dish-out 4 die against them, cool, an average of 1 hit per roll.

The mickey on the other hand rolls 16 dice on a full unit at range 4, and 9 dice on armour 3, still at range 4. Sure the Luther rolls 9 dice on armour 3 cool, but it has to be base-to-base, and the opponent had to be stupid enough to stay 1 square away from the Luther.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dominate definitely carries different meanings for the two of us.  Dominate suggests no chance for the dominated to me, yet every pairing you mention is far from a sure thing.

Having the ability to eliminate a unit, when that unit has a reasonable chance of eliminating you instead, is not what I would call domination.

All of the walkers have problems against infantry in close terrain.  That's been a problem for armor since the first time it appeared on the battlefield.  If that were not the case, I would have far less interest in DUST.  Hell Boys have a 55% chance to kill any medium or light walker in the game at range one with normal attacks, but that isn't domination, that's simply part of DUST's overall level of lethality.

The Luther can do reasonably against other walkers, especially the light walkers.  It can do well against infantry when used well.  No walker will do well waddling up to a squad of Hell Boys in close terrain without the right support.

The Mickey can do as well as the Luther against vehicles, but only within range 5.  The Luther gets an advantage beyond that range.

The Mickey can roll 16 diace against Armor 2 infantry at range 4, but that means it is in range of the infantry, as well.  The Luther can damage the infantry while staying outside their threat range, so even doing less damage before it closes to finish a target, it gains an advantage if used properly.

I'm not worried about the specifics of which is better, as either one is a good walker if used well.  A simple consideration is that the Axis player does not have access to the Mickey to use as an Allied player does, so they can use the Luther for similar tasks, but they will have to use it differently.

The Mickey has advanatages, and the Luther has advantages.  Both are quite capable, but both have to be used smart, or either one can be a waste of points.

I find it humorous that you list units as not showing up in games that I have seen players use to quite good effect in highly competitive games.  Death Dealers and Hell Boys are great, but they also cost more.  Simpler units can be well worth their points when you use them well.

One of DUST's strengths for me is that all of the units can work, but you have to use them well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gimp said:

Dominate definitely carries different meanings for the two of us.  Dominate suggests no chance for the dominated to me, yet every pairing you mention is far from a sure thing.

Having the ability to eliminate a unit, when that unit has a reasonable chance of eliminating you instead, is not what I would call domination.

 

So what would you call it then? Just a topic of interest.

Gimp said:

All of the walkers have problems against infantry in close terrain. That's been a problem for armor since the first time it appeared on the battlefield. If that were not the case, I would have far less interest in DUST. Hell Boys have a 55% chance to kill any medium or light walker in the game at range one with normal attacks, but that isn't domination, that's simply part of DUST's overall level of lethality.

I'd disagree. Do you really conisder the Sturm, ReconG, BattG, and BotHunters anti-tank capabilities as major threats? Range 2 and 3 that can't kill on a hit is hardly a threat. Sure they can insta-kill, at terrible odds, and you can gang up on a walker, but that is besides the point. Only a moron will let a range 2 and 3 kill his mickey if he has a maximum potential damage of 16 at range 4. The lazer gren also works at range 4, but it's odds aren't different from the units mentioned above. Also worth mentioning that the mickey can move faster then all the units stated above, save for the sturm.

The real threats are the Zombies, Apes, and Heavy Lazers. Not all as you have mentioed above.

Gimp said:

The Luther can do reasonably against other walkers, especially the light walkers. It can do well against infantry when used well. No walker will do well waddling up to a squad of Hell Boys in close terrain without the right support.

Oh ok, rolling an average of 2 die on a light walker is reasonable to you. Right, I can kill a light walker on the second turn provided he is stupid enough to stay at range 1. That sounds reasonable. At range 2 I could insta-kill a light walker with a 16 pt unit.

 

Gimp said:

The Mickey can do as well as the Luther against vehicles, but only within range 5. The Luther gets an advantage beyond that range.

The Mickey is not an anti tank. The luther is not an anti-tank. The mickey is an anti-personel that can kill things. The Luther is supposed to be an anti-personel with a little bit of anti-tank. Yes the Luther is unli-range that is it's advantage, no one here is debating with you on that. The real issue is it is useless on a CQB area.

Gimp said:

The Mickey can roll 16 diace against Armor 2 infantry at range 4, but that means it is in range of the infantry, as well. The Luther can damage the infantry while staying outside their threat range, so even doing less damage before it closes to finish a target, it gains an advantage if used properly.


 

The mickey has a range of 4, but with fast it can move 2 and attack. Threat range 6. Also worth mentioning, Bazookas, Panzerfaust, and Panzershreks have a range of 2 and 3. The only axis unit with range 4 the lazers. Not all as you claimed.

Gimp said:

I find it humorous that you list units as not showing up in games that I have seen players use to quite good effect in highly competitive games. Death Dealers and Hell Boys are great, but they also cost more. Simpler units can be well worth their points when you use them well.

The only time that I have seen those units in action is when:

1. The player could not afford to purchase any other unit

2. The player wanted to field something that could consume AP points he didn't use up.

Do you know why? If you want to win a competitive game you don't put in units that are ok, you put in units that are awesome.

 

Gimp said:

One of DUST's strengths for me is that all of the units can work, but you have to use them well.

See here is what you are doing you are stating the obvious, yes you can win with crappy units if you play well. That is a given. But it won't change the fact that the Luther has sub-par stats. Nobody here said it can't win games. Everyone agrees that is has crappy stats, and it does. If you think it has great awesome stats, then good for you, give yourself a pat on the back you see things at a different angle from everyone else. Can we drop it now?


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Easy there, jowisu. No need to be so confrontational, we're just discussing the pros and cons of a unit here...

I certainly don't agree with your opinion that only units that can dish out a bucketfull of damage dice are good units that deserve to be fielded. Recon squads are great, bazookas do kill walkers, and keep in mind that infantry has a way of sneaking its way to get close to their target, so even if the walker has much better range, it'll still end up under the sights of a panzerfaust again and again.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loophole Master said:

Easy there, jowisu. No need to be so confrontational, we're just discussing the pros and cons of a unit here...

I certainly don't agree with your opinion that only units that can dish out a bucketfull of damage dice are good units that deserve to be fielded. Recon squads are great, bazookas do kill walkers, and keep in mind that infantry has a way of sneaking its way to get close to their target, so even if the walker has much better range, it'll still end up under the sights of a panzerfaust again and again.

 

 

Exactly, and since when did the pros and cons of a unit ever factor in good playing is all I am saying.

Loophole Master said:

I certainly don't agree with your opinion that only units that can dish out a bucketfull of damage dice are good units that deserve to be fielded. Recon squads are great, bazookas do kill walkers, and keep in mind that infantry has a way of sneaking its way to get close to their target, so even if the walker has much better range, it'll still end up under the sights of a panzerfaust again and again.

 

Ok , at some extent I do agree. I do field recon grens/boys and ect.... To get ourselves on the same page, what I meant to really say is that they are rarely used, or rather most people would rather use other units then to use them. The units I mentioned above become fillers so to say.

 

Ah but before we continue, with the advent of the russian helicopter... I am sure we can all agree that the Luther will see more play due to it's anti-aircraft capabilities. But still a bit to expensive AP wise, my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, with the value of AA now coming into play, the Luther is indeed the best jack of all trades in the game.

- Anti-infantry? Check

- Anti-walker? Check

- Good range? Check

- Good CC? Check

- Anti-aircraft? Check

- Tough? Check

Really, is there any other unit that does all that for a reasonable price?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loophole Master said:

Yes, with the value of AA now coming into play, the Luther is indeed the best jack of all trades in the game.

- Anti-infantry? Check

- Anti-walker? Check

- Good range? Check

- Good CC? Check

- Anti-aircraft? Check

- Tough? Check

Really, is there any other unit that does all that for a reasonable price?

It is yet to be seen. I dunno loopy, the 35 AP is still a bit steep for me to consider. But I will field it to see.

 

Actually with this new anti-air role, I hope it will become really effective in that one area, instead of being sub-par in all areas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, as always, it is not your best anti-aircraft option, that would be the affordable Heinrich.

I think the point of the Luther is to use him in a region of the board where you don't know what your opponent will throw at you. WIth the Luther you have a fighting chance, whatever comes your way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...