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Three heretic questions about Our Beloved Emperor

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dracopticon said:

Hello all.

 

Before you reach for your blessed bolters, hear me out! And this kind of inquiry perhaps are not best answered here, but I trust in you, my fellow Deathwatchers and your knowledge, so here goes: I started to delve into possible answers to some questions I have had for a time, which is -

1. "Do The Emperor Really Protect - and if so, how?". What I mean is kind of game mechanically - how would it work, and also storywise how could one weave it into the actions of the player characters? I've read the Horus Heresy four initial books from Black Library and also read almost all the Gaunt's Ghosts books where a certain commissar gets a lot of faith blooming in his breast, sort of.

2. Many times you read about the heretics and Chaos Marines and such, hollering "Death to the false Emperor!". What do they mean? When looking around on the net for the answer to my first question (above), I came across another thread on this and one guys answer sounded interesting to me (quote below):

"Personally I believe there are two entities; The Emperor and the God-Emperor.

The Emperor is the physical remains of the great warlord who conquered the galaxy, and by his sheer force of will and psychic might is powering the Astronomican and keeping the Imperial Webway gate sealed.

The God-Emperor on the other hand is a god. A warp entity formed by the untold trillions of humans who worship it. It is a ruthless and tyrannical god, and is so because that is the environment from which it was born. The Ecclesiarchy dictate and regulate the Imperial Cult and thus the worship of Trillions across the galaxy, thus the God-Emperor acts just how the Ecclesiarchy wants it to act. It is this entity, the God-Emperor, who 'rewards' and 'protects' some of its followers via divine intervention, (the Imperial Saints for example), not the smouldering corpse upon the Golden Throne.

The two may or may not be linked..." 

Here's the link to that thread: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23610&page=2

3. If there exists two Emperors, one physical almost undead thing sitting on the Golden Throne, and another warp-dwelling God-Emperor, does that mean to the Chaos worshipers and/or atleast the Chaos Marines he is the real Emperor, so that could be the reason of the phrase "Death to the false Emperor!"?

 

As I understand it, there is only one Emperor. The God-Emperor and the Emperor are the same entity. There are simply multiply beliefs concerning him. It's most noticable in the differences between the Imperial Creed and the [multiple] beliefs of the various Astartes Chapters. If you want something generic; the common people see the Emperor as the God-Emperor, a protector. The Astartes see him as their father and master, above their Primarchs of course.

He only became the God-Emperor because he had no choice in the matter. The Cult that gave birth to the current Imperial Creed [and the Ministorum] was spreading rapidly in the Great Crusade, despite the fact that it was against the law to worship any gods in the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy didn't come into power until after the Horus Heresy, around M33 [or something like that.] It only exist because the Emperor knew the common people would need a center of faith, something to believe in, or the Imperium would fall.

The interesting part about the Emperor is that he isn't a god, not in the same way that the Eldar have gods, or the worshipers of Chaos have gods. He is extremely powerful, and before the Heresy he was naturally immortal [i'm assuming.] As he is now, he is certainly god-like, gifted and cursed with huge perspective and power, but even with ten thousand years worth of psyker souls to absorb, he isn't warp born. And the consumption of so many psykers is a two edged sword. On one hand, there is more to his intelligence, more of him, to watch the Imperium, but he isn't a cohesive whole. His will is starting to fragment. And when it finally fragments he will cease to exist, daemons will pour through the Golden Throne, his protection of the Imperium will fall etc etc.

There are rumors that he might ascend to become a true god as well, purely a being of the warp. I think that is in old, old lore though. Look up the Starchild in a 40k wiki. I recommend Lexicanum.

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igotsmeakabob!! said:

I'm just saying that the Emperor, as a guy, was a terrible person.

 

Nice speech, heretic. Any last words? gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

Alex

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DJSunhammer said:

The interesting part about the Emperor is that he isn't a god, not in the same way that the Eldar have gods, or the worshipers of Chaos have gods. He is extremely powerful, and before the Heresy he was naturally immortal [i'm assuming.] As he is now, he is certainly god-like, gifted and cursed with huge perspective and power, but even with ten thousand years worth of psyker souls to absorb, he isn't warp born. And the consumption of so many psykers is a two edged sword. On one hand, there is more to his intelligence, more of him, to watch the Imperium, but he isn't a cohesive whole. His will is starting to fragment. And when it finally fragments he will cease to exist, daemons will pour through the Golden Throne, his protection of the Imperium will fall etc etc.

 
He's already sort of a being of the warp. Here's the relevant bit from Lexicanum:

"[T]he Emperor's birth, while a natural process, was actually the result of a scheme created by the wisest and most powerful of living humans at that time; the conclave of shamans. These men, termed 'shamans' by their society, were powerful psykers with great experience of the Warp. Finding their souls - and those of humanity - endangered by the growing perils of the Warp-gods, these psykers decided to pool their power into one human, a being they called 'the New Man'. Already having gained the power to reincarnate themselves (upon death, the shamans' souls would transfer to the Warp, accumulating power enough to reincarnate as human) the shamans entered a suicide-pact. Thousands of them poisoned themselves and sped their souls to the warp at the same time. Presumably pooling their soul-energy and using their reincarnation ability, they brought about the birth of their New Man - the Emperor - one year later."

The only weird thing is that this references psykers on Terra prior to like 8000 BC, where psykers apparently only came into being in great numbers in human space at the outset of the Age of Strife. Though perhaps this just refers to quantity, not existence at all. 

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Kshatriya said:

DJSunhammer said:

 

The only weird thing is that this references psykers on Terra prior to like 8000 BC, where psykers apparently only came into being in great numbers in human space at the outset of the Age of Strife. Though perhaps this just refers to quantity, not existence at all. 

Well, the Shamans had a set number of them. When that number started to decline, they made the effort to combine their essence just to maintain the power they had for humanities future.

The psykers are mentioned as being a mutation all over the place.

So, I think that although the two groups both draw power from the warp, they are different.

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igotsmeakabob!! said:

I'm just saying that the Emperor, as a guy, was a terrible person. He was the savior of mankind and the herald of its legacy in the stars, he was the force behind the pioneering of the technology that allowed for humanity to take its place as the most powerful Empire in the galaxy, he sired the Primarchs, and he was an *******. One of my favorite stories of him is, I think it was called The Last Church, in Tales of the Horus Heresy. Brilliant story. And really shows him for who he was supposed to be. A brilliant, courageous, and ruthless individual whose dream was to see Mankind as the sole ruler of the stars. He was Super Manifest Destiny Man, arguably with a little White Man's Burden thrown in on a galactic level.

I could be wrong about the practical misogyny.

 

Exactly! In Legion you get the idea that the consortium (some sort of quasi über beings group) painted the emperor as a bloodthirsty bastard. Someone they tried to recruit but failed because he wanted to go it alone. In the latest one, Outcast Dead, you see how the Emperor designed the original Thunder Warriors as a gene made warrior with a low shelf life. Take the planet then die off so as to not be a problem later. Although I had a few issues with Gav Thorpe's idea of how big they were. The Last Church is a great example as well, and one of my favorite of the Horus Heresy line. Come to think of it, most of the short stories are my favs.

As for 'the Emperor protects,' we always say, 'the Emperor protects those who protect themselves.'

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AriasDerros said:

I really love the fact that the entire history of 40k is nothing but tails of errors caused by hubris.

YES! I think so too. Hubris is so finger-tip-smacking-good when it comes to building stories on it! And everyone can be affected by it. Everyone.

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To add to the Sisters comment. The Sisterhood of Silence did exist when the Emperor was still up and about during the Great Crusade. They were all blanks, and fought to capture psykers. I've heard two different things from sources, but either a group (known as null maidens, wearing bronze colored armor and sporting bald top knotted heads) were the only untouchables in their order, while the rest were simply skilled female fighters. Or they were all untouchables, I wasn't able to find the full answer. They also had black ships (much like the ones in the 41st M) that they used to detain the psykers they caught. So other then the ecclesiarchy needing a way around having an army, the Sisterhood of Silence may have been an inspiration for the Sisters of Battle. The reason why I say this is because even thought they didn't believe the Emperor was a god. They were very ritualistic (all were under an oath of silence among many things) in their own right. When I read the Horus Heresy series myself it felt like they were proto Sisters of Battle. On the False Emperor deal, it is stated in The Last Heretic I believe (don't have it on me at the moment) that Sevatar 1st Captain of the Nightlords at a meeting between several of the "back up" legions that would head to Istvan V (dropsite massacre) was first to coin this phrase. This is at a time when not all the traitor legions are completely familiar with the chaos gods, or even completely worshipping them yet. So in my mind "Death to the False Emperor!" was more originaly linked to them wanting Horus as their Emperor, and being mad at the Emperor leaving the front lines etc. etc., Cheers Gentlemen!

 

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Sorry if this have been said before
1- He holds them empire together via the Astronomicon (the light in the warp)
If you read the old Inquisitor game source book about Thorian Inquisitors, in it there is a story about a preacher who is scruffiest to Chaos but in death the emperor speaks to ham and bring him back to life unbound and close to his chainsword

 

2- Many CSM sees Horus as the true emperor of mankind, or at least under the heresy, I believe many of Black Legion wants Abbadon to be the emperor (source to the last is Soul Hunter novel)
 

 

- Erikhappy.gif

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I am pretty sure that the Emperor would excecute a lot of people if he woke up and found up he was declared a god... after all his own creed goes against the exsistence of god... (this is in The flight of the Eisenstein i think)

 

that said, he might still intervine (or it might be make-belive, or that because just happens things 'cause people belive it - just like orc weapons)

 

there is however some beacon on Terra that helps ships navigate (but that could be something else i dunno...)

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The Chaos warcry "Death to The False Emperor!" dates back to origins of Horus Heresy. Basically in order to understand it you must know a few basics about that time and Horus Heresy. First of all, Emperor never wanted to be worshipped. Instead he forbade any attempts to deify and worship his own person. The Word Bearer legion was severely chastised for worshipping Emperors person and the original Imperial Cult of those days was actually illegal. Almost all of the Primarchs actually shared the Emperors scientific and atheistic view of the world. All except Lorgar of Word Bearers actually believed that there ARE no gods and for a man to call himself or be worshipped as a god was ultimate hubris and heresy.

One of the reasons why Horus fell to chaos was because chaos powers showed him a glimpse of future where Emperor was worshipped as god, many of the primarchs were worshipped as saints but there was no sight of statue of Horus anywhere. Horus took this as a sign that Emperor had been using him and lying all along and after galaxy was fully conquered Emperor intended to discard a full half of primarchs, including Horus himself, aside and legalize the Imperial Cult, instating himself a new god. Horus would have none of that and proclaimed that he would lead the mankind to the bright new future... a vision which Horus believed Emperor had betrayed. Thus to the Luna Wolves, later Sons of Horus and even later Black Legion Horus was the "True Emperor of Mankind" and the original Emperor who had betrayed his own vision and broken his own rules was the "False Emperor".

The "Death to The False Emperor!" doesn't make much sense to a loyalist 10 000 years later who thinks there is only one Emperor and he is God. But it makes a whole lot of sense to renegades who think emperor is just a title.

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Hi guys,

 

found this interesting topic and wondered if any of you GMs out there meddled with the idea of the "Return of the Emperor".

Regarding the information the Lexicanum provides that could be a campaign consideration, couldn´t it? Any inputs here?

 

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Grimbeard said:

Hi guys,

 

found this interesting topic and wondered if any of you GMs out there meddled with the idea of the "Return of the Emperor".

Regarding the information the Lexicanum provides that could be a campaign consideration, couldn´t it? Any inputs here?

 

 

Absolutely. The premise of my long term meta campaign (A DH, RT, DW and another DW group) basically is the return (or death) of the Emperor of Mankind. Basically works off the idea that humanity was the final weapon developed by the Old Ones in their fight against the Necrontyr. Humans themselves meant nothing, they were just a delvery system for the final product - a nascent Old One. Those ancient gods couldn't breed, couldn't create more of themselves, so they tried to build a race that would give way to a single, perfect individual... then the War in Heaven was lost and the Old Ones were destroyed or vanished. Now the various PCs need to help gather the Primarchs forth, hold the Imperium together just long enough and then witness the Eldar race committing mass suicide to awaken the Old One Ynead - the Corpse God, the Lord of Death, the Emperor of Mankind.

Then **** gets interesting...

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That sounds splendid!

My campaign evolves around the "Emperor´s sons" topic. Refering to the information in the Lexicanum they are connected to the "Star Child" and it is fun to see in which direction my player´s actions will bring all this. And of utmost interest will be - in case the Emperor returns - what his thoughts and actions might look like when he sees what his Empire evolved to (maybe he is a little corrupted too, you know everything has its price.)  demonio.gif

O.K. this kind of campaign might be a little daring considering that the whole 40k setting is based on the Emperor enclosed in his Golden Throne - and officially FFG won´t go in that direction - but as a game experience in a self- written campaign I think it is well worth it, isn´t it?

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Indeed!  The various canon threads have been twisting lanquidly in this direction since the beginning.  And you point to the very crux of the matter, grimbeard:  just what does the Emprah do when it respawns?  And how corrupt is it?  And how do the eldar tie-in?  (the prof's mass suicide idear sounds like something i've heard tell of somewhere...but how would they coordinate such a thing?  and how would they 'convince' their dark cousins?  and just what oh what will Chaos do?)

And let us not forget the living descendants of the Old Ones, ready to enact the ancient plan.......nor should we forget the fifth Chaos God....

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 Yeah, I toyed with the idea of the Emprah waking up as part of my campaign, but have saved it for a later one.  This one is about Primarchs, not their dad.  But some seriously cool ideas here - Malal is very important to all of this.  I hope.  

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