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Gillam Harrow

So what happens if Abaddon dies?

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I'm sure you all see this event to be as unlikely as i do, what with his favor by chaos itself and all that, but what if Abaddon kicks the bucket at the hands of, say, the inquisition or a coalition of highly trained (and likely suicidal) loyalist marines? who takes over? is this a blow Chaos on the whole can quickly bounce, or does it lead to a crumbling of chaos forces in the region untill a new champion is chosen? what would be the implications of a champion backed by a single chaos god taking this "top spot" as it were?

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1) Abaddon burns a fate point and the forces of chaos save him....
2) GW comes up with an even more powerful Chaos Overlord
3) One of the two (or both) of the Lost Chapters come over and present their version of Abaddon
4) He was eaten by Tyranid and thus Holy Terra was already eaten and its game over
5) The God Emperor takes his place
6) He is elevated to Daemon Prince and continues to serve

I would say options 1, 2 or 6

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Woah woah two or six? You almost make it sound like Games Workshop is willing to change big things in the universe on a meaningful scale, no their more about making wide sweeping non sensical small details to factions that drastically change what they are like... usually by means of Matt Ward! Such as you know turning the Grey Knights into a bunch of Xanthites who're immune to Chaos as opposed to having to still try and resist it and being all the more impressive for suceeding...

They wont change something like that... lets look at his Warhammer Fantasy battle equivelant Archaon who messed up and lost a big chaos incursion they didn't even turn him into a Chaos spawn because the Chaos gods are you know ok with failure on a massive scale and let him off where all of his predecessors had the good grace to die. [inaudible grumbles]

But as for the Black Legion Little Horus would be a likely contender if Archaon kicked the bucket as new leader. If developments did happen perhaps someone from the Word Bearers might step up to lead more of the vast hordes of Chaos.

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Back during the big Eye of Terror summer event several years ago, which revolved around Abbaddon's 13th Black Crusade against Cadia, GW stated that the outcome of that campaign would effect the official history of the 40K universe: if the Loyalists won, itwould mark the beginning of a new "golden age" for the Imperium, while if Chaos won, the Imperium was pretty much doomed. Chaos won, due in large part to most of the official event scenarios being weighted in Chaos' favor (explain to me how an invading force can ambush entrenched defenders on a Fortress World?!). So officially, a century after the setting of the WH40KRP games, Abbaddon and the Planet Killer are en route to Holy Terra. If Abbaddon were to somehow die before arriving, I doubt it would cause much of a ripple amongst his warhost...
 

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Gaius said:

Woah woah two or six? You almost make it sound like Games Workshop is willing to change big things in the universe on a meaningful scale, no their more about making wide sweeping non sensical small details to factions that drastically change what they are like... usually by means of Matt Ward! Such as you know turning the Grey Knights into a bunch of Xanthites who're immune to Chaos as opposed to having to still try and resist it and being all the more impressive for suceeding...

They wont change something like that... lets look at his Warhammer Fantasy battle equivelant Archaon who messed up and lost a big chaos incursion they didn't even turn him into a Chaos spawn because the Chaos gods are you know ok with failure on a massive scale and let him off where all of his predecessors had the good grace to die. [inaudible grumbles]

But as for the Black Legion Little Horus would be a likely contender if Archaon kicked the bucket as new leader. If developments did happen perhaps someone from the Word Bearers might step up to lead more of the vast hordes of Chaos.

I hate the Word Bearers, but that's mostly because of Erebus, Lorgar, and Kor Phaeron, from the Horus Heresy series.

And frankly, when you take in all the information, the change in attitude of the Grey Knights makes a bit more sense. They're all about fighting Daemons and stopping the Warp from breaching reality. What if they were confronted with a situation where the ONLY WAY to stop something was to resort to using the powers of Chaos themselves (and you know I don't mean psychic powers). Maybe there are other means that can get the job done, but you won't always have a vial of Sanguinius' tears, or something, to throw in to the growing breach.

So, what to do? Should they just curl up in to a ball and die because they've failed? And they've failed, even if they go out in a blaze of glory, carving through Daemonic hordes the whole **** way. And, while it is also a bit of fairly new fluff (a reinterpretation really), that's what the Grey Knights aren't supposed to let happen. They're called in when the **** is really hitting the fan, with the orders to stop what's happening at all costs.

I'm not saying there isn't bad fluff, but when we look at something we should do it with a more critical eye than simply saying it sucks because, "Matt Ward wrote this".

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 No matter how powerful Abaddon is, he is still just one guy.  If he dies, Chaos loses nothing...  The Black Legion will either splinter into other warbands again or fall behind a new chaos lord with the might and charisma to lead them.  No big deal to Chaos, in fact the radical changes probably suit the ruinous powers.

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Adeptus-B said:

Chaos won, due in large part to most of the official event scenarios being weighted in Chaos' favor (explain to me how an invading force can ambush entrenched defenders on a Fortress World?!). So officially, a century after the setting of the WH40KRP games, Abbaddon and the Planet Killer are en route to Holy Terra. If Abbaddon were to somehow die before arriving, I doubt it would cause much of a ripple amongst his warhost...

Wait what... where the hell does it say any of this about the Imperium ending in a century? More to the point, where the hell does it say it's official.

Especially since, if I remember correctly, the BFG side of things was a sweeping victory for the Imperials.

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Blood Pact said:

And frankly, when you take in all the information, the change in attitude of the Grey Knights makes a bit more sense. They're all about fighting Daemons and stopping the Warp from breaching reality. What if they were confronted with a situation where the ONLY WAY to stop something was to resort to using the powers of Chaos themselves (and you know I don't mean psychic powers). Maybe there are other means that can get the job done, but you won't always have a vial of Sanguinius' tears, or something, to throw in to the growing breach.

So, what to do? Should they just curl up in to a ball and die because they've failed? And they've failed, even if they go out in a blaze of glory, carving through Daemonic hordes the whole **** way. And, while it is also a bit of fairly new fluff (a reinterpretation really), that's what the Grey Knights aren't supposed to let happen. They're called in when the **** is really hitting the fan, with the orders to stop what's happening at all costs.

I'm not saying there isn't bad fluff, but when we look at something we should do it with a more critical eye than simply saying it sucks because, "Matt Ward wrote this".

Grey Knights willing to go Xanthite are imaginable. A letdown for many, but it can make sense.

Grey Knights going full Xanthite yet remaining incorruptible make no sense at all. You dabble in Chaos, Chaos dabbles in you. 

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Blood Pact said:

I'm not saying there isn't bad fluff, but when we look at something we should do it with a more critical eye than simply saying it sucks because, "Matt Ward wrote this".

Just for the record that -IS- a totally legit arguement strategy and point. but I will agree with you that the Word Bearers can lick smeg as I too have grown to loath them from reading the HH series.

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Morangias said:

Grey Knights willing to go Xanthite are imaginable. A letdown for many, but it can make sense.

Grey Knights going full Xanthite yet remaining incorruptible make no sense at all. You dabble in Chaos, Chaos dabbles in you. 

Wasn't there a part in the Gre Knights Codex about them annointing themselves in the blood of the Sisters of Battle they butchered because they claimed that the Sisters were "tainted by Chaos"???? hmmmmm......seems pretty khornite to me..

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Blood Pact said:

Adeptus-B said:

Chaos won, due in large part to most of the official event scenarios being weighted in Chaos' favor (explain to me how an invading force can ambush entrenched defenders on a Fortress World?!). So officially, a century after the setting of the WH40KRP games, Abbaddon and the Planet Killer are en route to Holy Terra. If Abbaddon were to somehow die before arriving, I doubt it would cause much of a ripple amongst his warhost...

 

Wait what... where the hell does it say any of this about the Imperium ending in a century? More to the point, where the hell does it say it's official.

Especially since, if I remember correctly, the BFG side of things was a sweeping victory for the Imperials.

The statement I was refering to was in a White Dwarf promoting the Eye of Terror campaign. And the doom of the Imperium has been officially incorporated into the background fluff of the latest edition of the tabletop game- it doesn't expressly state that the Planet Killer destroys Terra, but it makes it clear that the Imperium is dying and won't last long into the 42nd Millenium.

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Adeptus-B said:

The statement I was refering to was in a White Dwarf promoting the Eye of Terror campaign. And the doom of the Imperium has been officially incorporated into the background fluff of the latest edition of the tabletop game- it doesn't expressly state that the Planet Killer destroys Terra, but it makes it clear that the Imperium is dying and won't last long into the 42nd Millenium.

So

Abbaddon blows up Terra, finally releasing the Emperor's soul from the Golden Throne and allowing him to be reincarnated. He leads a new Crusade to unite the Imperium.

Or

Abbaddon blows up Terra, destroying the High Lords (why do I think of Cheech and Chong there?), causing the Imperium to fracture.  Now, every time two different IG regiments line up on the tourney board, it actually makes sense.This causes another event on the order of the Age of Apostasy. After several centuries of fragmentation, a new Sebastian Thor like figure emerges and leads a new crusade to unite humanity.

A couple of wild cards are also out there: Cypher/the rest of the Fallen and Alpha Legion. Both have had a bit of fluff attached to them over the years that could be spun to be interpreted as they are acting more like Recongegators or Istvaanians than foes of the imperial ideal

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Morangias said:

Grey Knights willing to go Xanthite are imaginable. A letdown for many, but it can make sense.

Grey Knights going full Xanthite yet remaining incorruptible make no sense at all. You dabble in Chaos, Chaos dabbles in you.

Unless your WIll is that strong.

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Blood Pact said:

Morangias said:

Grey Knights willing to go Xanthite are imaginable. A letdown for many, but it can make sense.

 

Grey Knights going full Xanthite yet remaining incorruptible make no sense at all. You dabble in Chaos, Chaos dabbles in you.

 

Unless your WIll is that strong.

Exactly.....what Magnus thought

Incorruptibility does not sit well with me in 40K as a grimdark setting.

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Adept Orcadius said:

Morangias said:

 

Grey Knights willing to go Xanthite are imaginable. A letdown for many, but it can make sense.

Grey Knights going full Xanthite yet remaining incorruptible make no sense at all. You dabble in Chaos, Chaos dabbles in you. 

 

 

Wasn't there a part in the Gre Knights Codex about them annointing themselves in the blood of the Sisters of Battle they butchered because they claimed that the Sisters were "tainted by Chaos"???? hmmmmm......seems pretty khornite to me..

They did do this. But not because the Sisters were impure. They did it because the WERE pure, and their blood was armor against the Bloodtide or somesuch.

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Firstly, let us put some things into place.

One would definitely have to remember that the Chaos Legions are by no means Chaos itself. The ruinous powers are a sum of the collective feelings of all sentient races, and they do not devote a large portion of their attention to the Imperium. The war they are fighting is the so-called Great Game, symbolically depicted by infinite clashes of demonic armies in the improbable fortresses of the daemon worlds within the warp. It is mainly a dialectic battle, a war for the prevalence of a certain feeling within the minds of the sentient entities in the galaxy (those connected to the warp, at least). After all, if there's something the Great Crusade ought to have taught to the unenlightened Imperials, it is that he who sows bloodlust and extermination shall harvest violence to a degree greater than he expected (ergo horus' apostasy). The enlightened have learned this truth form Khorne. gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

So, let's get to the matter at hand.

The above comes to signify two things: that destroying the Imperium is mainly an agenda of the Chaos Legions, not the Chaos Gods (they wouldn't mind, but it's definitely not their purpose), and that Abaddon is quite a small fry in the grand scheme of things (and the Dark Gods care only for the grand scheme). If he were to die, his place in the Black Legion would probably be filled by Aximand, or someone else who would be able to wield that power.  As for the Black Crusades, let us remember that there are still six Deamon Primarchs in the warp, and countless Greater Demons etc, who could easily call a Black Crusade.

 

For further regarding Chaos in the WH universe, I would strongly recommend the Liber Chaotica series.

 

PS. Matt Ward's GK stuff is indeed sub-par, cheesy and repulsive. As is the rest of his work.

 

 

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I think a lot of people i this thread are underestimating the importance and unique position Abaddon holds. There's a reason he is the only on, ONLY ONE, in 10,000 years to mount, not one, but 13 black crusades. No one else has ever come close to assembling a force like he has. All this has been achieved by his unquestionable force of will, charisma and the power to back up his promises... and threats.

I'm not an Abaddon fanboy by any stretch, but claiming that someone else would just swoop in and take his place is wishful thinking. There's absolutely nothing in the established background that anyone else is even remotely capable of doing such a thing.

 

It also irks me to read that he has failed 13 times and that he should either be a spawn or killed because of it.  He hasn't failed 13 times. He's succeeded. TNone of the 13 crusades had the destruction of the Imperium as it's primary objective, but each has hurt the Imperium in a way that has paved a way for the next crusade, and every time he gets one step closer to the final prize, Terra.

The only reason gw hasn't launched the 14th black crusade is because it sounds stupid. the 13th sounds cool.

 

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Jackal_Strain said:

I think a lot of people i this thread are underestimating the importance and unique position Abaddon holds. There's a reason he is the only on, ONLY ONE, in 10,000 years to mount, not one, but 13 black crusades. No one else has ever come close to assembling a force like he has. All this has been achieved by his unquestionable force of will, charisma and the power to back up his promises... and threats.

I'm not an Abaddon fanboy by any stretch, but claiming that someone else would just swoop in and take his place is wishful thinking. There's absolutely nothing in the established background that anyone else is even remotely capable of doing such a thing.

 

It also irks me to read that he has failed 13 times and that he should either be a spawn or killed because of it.  He hasn't failed 13 times. He's succeeded. TNone of the 13 crusades had the destruction of the Imperium as it's primary objective, but each has hurt the Imperium in a way that has paved a way for the next crusade, and every time he gets one step closer to the final prize, Terra.

The only reason gw hasn't launched the 14th black crusade is because it sounds stupid. the 13th sounds cool.



Yes... and no. While Abaddon is certainly a badass (with painfully silly hair) the truth is that, in the eyes of the chaos gods, nobody is unique. And if Abaddon snuffs it, I doubt his current crusade will merely pout and disband. No, there will be huge infighting as a bunch of big wigs all compete for the glory of taking charge, one will crawl atop the heap of dead enemies and eventually all other contenders will realize their chances are too small and back down. The Crusade will continue, in whatever direction the new leader sees fit.

And, most likely, sooner or later someone will go "Abaddon wasn't that hardcore, he had the silliest hair of all time!" go and do a shitload of epic quests, earn their own Unique Mark of Chaos, show it off to all their friends, punch all their enemies in the balls, kick whoever won off the giant corpse pile, declare themselves the Chosen Champion of Chaos and throw Crusades all over the place. This person will most likely be a PC.

Also, while Abaddon has lead a bunch of crusades, the truth is that he not the be all end all of Chaos champions. The fact that he doesn't rock horns, scaly skin and his own personal Daemonic Fiefdom as a Daemon Prince is proof enough of that.

However, there is one thing nobody has mentioned. If Abaddon dies, Perry, minor chaos god of bad hair, dies with him. In fact, with his passing, all other hair will become slightly better by the mere absence of Abaddon's incredibly uncool hair pike and the chaos god it personally sustains.

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Indeed, Abaddon has proved to be quite the leader, although he doesn't seem that charismatic in the HH books. He is devoted, though, and has had many successes.

Regardless of that, he cannot be compared to any one of the Primarchs, and they are but some out of many possible wielders of his power (let's not forget apothecary Fabius' Horus-cloning project. Who knows what the next one will be). There is no power gap in the warp, and Abaddon's loss definitely wouldn't create one. Whenever one falls, another one with the skill and ambition will take his place. Such is the way of Chaos.

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Reverend mort said:

However, there is one thing nobody has mentioned. If Abaddon dies, Perry, minor chaos god of bad hair, dies with him. In fact, with his passing, all other hair will become slightly better by the mere absence of Abaddon's incredibly uncool hair pike and the chaos god it personally sustains.

 

So it was said, but this is sadly not to be. Perry will forever cherish his place in the Warp, for his greatest apostle lies within it, forever fighting and preaching the glory of bad hair.

He was the one featured in the poster that young Abaddon hung on the wall one day in Cthonia, pledging to emulate the great man in all his unkempt biking glory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JaghataiKhan.jpg

JAGHATAI KHAN

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You are right. Abaddon is nothing like the Primarchs. He is in many ways their superior. He actually leads black crusadesa gainst the Imperium, instead of pouting on his own personal daemon world. The only daemon primarch that has been described as actually bothering to get off his lazy ass and do something is Angron, and he usually gets it handed to him in a spectacular fashion.

Abaddon doesn't sport mutations and hasn't ascended to daemonhood, because he has denied it several times. Abaddon could be a daemon prince multiple times over, but (this is my personal speculation) he has probably taken a look at the primarchs and seen what that leads to. It's counterproductive to actually getting things done.

I personaly don't believe that someone will take hus position if he dies. I think what happened to the legions after Horus fell will also happen to Abaddons forces. they will scatter and fight amongst themselves.

Abaddon is a plot device and a rather bad one at that, but I like how he sorta represents the last hope for the traitor legions for achieving their revenge.

We shall all mourn Perry.

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Jackal_Strain said:

You are right. Abaddon is nothing like the Primarchs. He is in many ways their superior. He actually leads black crusadesa gainst the Imperium, instead of pouting on his own personal daemon world. The only daemon primarch that has been described as actually bothering to get off his lazy ass and do something is Angron, and he usually gets it handed to him in a spectacular fashion.

Abaddon doesn't sport mutations and hasn't ascended to daemonhood, because he has denied it several times. Abaddon could be a daemon prince multiple times over, but (this is my personal speculation) he has probably taken a look at the primarchs and seen what that leads to. It's counterproductive to actually getting things done.

I personaly don't believe that someone will take hus position if he dies. I think what happened to the legions after Horus fell will also happen to Abaddons forces. they will scatter and fight amongst themselves.

Abaddon is a plot device and a rather bad one at that, but I like how he sorta represents the last hope for the traitor legions for achieving their revenge.

We shall all mourn Perry.



That analogy is like saying Commissar Yarrick is better than Vulcan because he actually fights something. Or Sly Marbo is better than the Emperor because he's still active in the world. Unfortunately, not quite right. The real reason the Daemon Princes sit on their ass is the same reason all the surviving Loyalist Primarchs are either in Stasis or off "repenting" somewhere unknown and far away: because having such immensely powerful entities running around would be too much of a hassle. They would either dominate the fluff or do nothing of what they could, and tabletop would become like that one edition of Fantasy Battles where it was all about the Heroes. Only this time it would be worse and on drugs.

Plus, that would require stating up new models, and I think GW might be opposed to that kind of work on pure principle. Sometimes it almost seems they oppose any effort on their part that isn't just feeding Matt Ward whatever it is he runs on. Personal guess, he consumes Jolt Cola and babies and ***** out the same thing we all do, only he does it pre-wiped and ready to print.

@Somnium. Ye Gods! Not the hair, it's just that whenever I've seen that picture before, I've just figured he's wearing a helmet. But now I realize that black shadowy part I figured was the mouth section is actually his mustache!

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@Mort:

It's not quite that simple imo. It has been stated in various official sources that the Daemon Primarchs have given up on the long war. Perturabo is a paranoid maniac that spends eternity fortifying against his enemies (storm of iron, or was it the ultramarine novel where they end up on Medrengard). Magnus and Lorgar spend all their time pondering and musing over the mysteries of the warp (Soul Hunter). The only Daemon Primarch that has done anything is Angron, and Gw did make rules for him. He is pretty powerful on the tabletop, but there are nastier creatures (Daemon lords from FW f.ex).

Your example comparing Marbo witht he emperor doesn't match Abaddon vs the primarchs at all. Like you said, Marbo is alive and the emperor is... well something else. Both Abaddon and the primarchs have the opportunity to do something, but only Abaddon actually take that opportunity. And personal power level is a bad way to judge how important a character is to the setting. Nobody believes Usarkar E. Creed stands a chance against Captain something of the generic boringness space marine chapter in combat, but the impact Creed has on the setting is quite formidable.

Abaddon is the greates chaos commander since the heresy, and replacing him will not be as easy as some people in this thread seems to think. The established background is pretty clear on this.

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