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Shiferbrains

Raptor+Charge+Swift Attack

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 hmmm, interesting, I hadn't noticed that before. I will agree that strike sounds distinctly like a melee attack, which implies an inconsistency in the rules.

I still think that the section on modifiers in combat is more specific about ranged weapons, so as GM of my group I will stick to that until I see something conclusive otherwise. but I will agree that it is not clear cut.

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well using the example of a tomb stalker, shooting a 40 foot long millipede from 50m away is a lot easier than shooting a 6 foot tall guy from the same distance, but getting close enough to a tomb stalker, past the swirling legs and death blades to inflict a blow that actually does any damage is not easier than stabbing a guy. Similarly with something like a bloodthirster, its alot easier to shoot from 30m away than it is to actually stab it, because getting within arms reach of its vitals is hard. The difference is that getting near something that big in melee without being turned into paste is actually harder than getting near something human sized. 

I think of it like something which is big has a longer melee weapon reach, so it can defend itself better, so getting telling blows against it is not easier than against a human sized target. but if you are shooting it from beyond its melee weapon reach then it cant defend itself, so its size works against it

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The way combat works, the difference between vital and glancing blows is mostly handed through damage rolls, not attack rolls. The slight exception being, your DoS being the minimum damage you can roll on one dice, but that hardly matters when you're rolling d10 + 30 damage.

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BTW- Like ive said before, im new and I wasnt trying to sound snippy about the "yea you can actually"....this was me simply relaying my experience with a somewhat similar situation and what happened. whether i got a fast one pulled on me Im not fully sure. So I apologize if any readers thought i was trying to be an A-hole to them.

REV-This was my understanding but i asked multiple ppl locally and (yes i will go back n thoroughly re-read this) there was something that since charging is consided a standard action (or something of that nature) even though it is a full action something in there allowed a "free half action"......I agree it does sound not right but.....appearantly I have gamers n friends that sit up at night trying to dream ways to OP the hell outta combat.

Neither was I. The "No you can't" was merely point of fact. No offense meant, no offense taken.

As for these multiple people, I'd really love to see their argument for that interpretation. So by all means, invite your player(s) to make their case. I personally have to say I have a hard time seeing any possible explanation for it, but who knows?

well using the example of a tomb stalker, shooting a 40 foot long millipede from 50m away is a lot easier than shooting a 6 foot tall guy from the same distance, but getting close enough to a tomb stalker, past the swirling legs and death blades to inflict a blow that actually does any damage is not easier than stabbing a guy. Similarly with something like a bloodthirster, its alot easier to shoot from 30m away than it is to actually stab it, because getting within arms reach of its vitals is hard. The difference is that getting near something that big in melee without being turned into paste is actually harder than getting near something human sized. 

I think of it like something which is big has a longer melee weapon reach, so it can defend itself better, so getting telling blows against it is not easier than against a human sized target. but if you are shooting it from beyond its melee weapon reach then it cant defend itself, so its size works against it.

A) Size does not presume upon the lethality of the target. Thus, while a tomb stalker might be a beast to get next to, a tank does not present the same obstacles. Neither does a rolly polly tub of walking lard. Both are things with a size modifier. If a big target presents difficulty to approach, it should be represented through traits and talents. For example, the "attack everything within range and still get to swift attack" talent the Tomb Stalker already has. More then enough discouragement to get into melee if you ask me.

B) Arms reach of it's vital is not the point. Getting within arms reach to STRIKE is, which is why you can hit arms and legs rather than just body and head. Against massive opponents, that is significantly easier, since there's a lot more mass to hit. Likewise, presuming you're sneaking up on said target, would it not be easier to hit, say, a barn-sized behemoth rather than an ordinary being?

If not, do you say the penalty for small targets is also negated in melee? So that stabbing a fly with a knife (in the eye, for the lulz) is just as easy as it is on a human?

C) Difficulty to approach and a capacity to squash approaching enemies is dealt through the use of counter attacks and parry rolls, not negation of to-hit modifiers.

D) Big targets can defend themselves against gunfire. It's called a dodge roll. Just like their capacity to defend themselves in melee is handled with a dodge or parry.

DL;DR: Hitting something big is easier, regardless of whether your're hitting it with a gun or a giant blade on a stick. If the object in question is capable of making said task harder, that ought to be handled by it's own situational nature, not the core rules for big things. Just like how the fact that some space marines are psykers doens't make the psyker trait inherent to all space marines, just the ones who are psychic.

Also, from a purely rules **** perspective: The size trait description says "strike in combat". The size table lists a "To-Hit" modifier. To me, this trumps the combat section, especially since it actually forwards you TO said size table, and sorta by the extension the actual trait description it's linked to.

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Morangias said:

By the way, did the Tomb Stalker try to dodge him? Because even with his untrained Dodge, he can still negate up to four hits from one of those attacks.

EDIT: Oh, and sorry if my tone seemed dismissive and/or judgmental at any moment. I try to be brief and informative when discussing rules on the web, but sometimes it just comes off as me being a dismissive jerk instead. No such thing was intended, I assure you.

Mor- I was using the tomb stalker as just some big scary beasty thing to help introduce 2 late comers to the game due to school scheduling. Basically, the 4 or so PC's are were travelling across no mans land in "The Hollows" and are on a mission for Forge Polix. They hear a motor at high rpm's coming their way fast so they all hide, and see this rhino come darting out of the smokey haze. this being of course chased by the "tomb stalker". I was using the profile for that to represent a generic NASTY war machine construct from the opposing forge.

tomb stalker blasts the rhino, out of the top hatch flies the raptor player, the noise marine jumps out the rear hatch. My Havoc, wich was just there as a means to aid the group incase they hit a sticky spot...he was just a pair of legs with a lovely reaper auto cannon. I dropped the TS from 90-50wounds...noisemarine did about 12 or so. .then the raptor killed it the one n a half times over. (this was all according to my/our understanding of damage n armor etc...) and then at the end of all the dice rolling and EVERYONE watching this player roll dice for what seemed like forever he announced the 140 something damage....which obviously got the job done.

I never really intended them to stay and fight, or have him one man show it as that was pretty much THE combat for that part of the session.   Honestly I was at first worried about someone dying on me so thats why I "softened" it up with the reaper. and also didnt have it dodge since well, I dont recall if a tomb stalker even has the dodge skill....that might have been why I just made the **** thing soak it all up...either that or I failed the roll. meh.

Naw I didnt take it like a dismissive. I just wanted to show how (according to my grasp of the rules at that time) yea it did AMAZINGLY happen and unless you want to play or run a tumbler of slaying dice watch out for it.

Have a safe n great new years all.

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Oh yea, the reason this PC even got close enough to filay this thing like freddy kruger was because the tomb stalker ound up having a slightly lower INIT. than them. partly due to the roll of the dice and also cus I figured, well, might let at least some damage to get slung his way before he ***** them all into tomorrow....

As for the size issues.....i understand that the word "STRIKE" Could indicate a projectile striking it, but seems nowdays and even in the 40K fluff that the only strikes are from missles, torpedoes, and lances.....everything else is from a "chainsword striking against an enemies armor and eating through it in a shower of sparks..."or what have you.

I agree totally though that there are some definite grey areas and non-clarity in some of the rules and the interpretation of them. I blame that on the fact that these games are all derived from Games Workshop stuff. HAHA YES I SAID IT MATT WARD YOU ****!!! *hides from the lawyers*

uhm......yea pretty much I think this has turned into a bit of a dead horse...

hahahaha btw, a friend told me about his bat **** crazy human psyker, as a joker character basically: pushed alot and basically had his psy rating high enuff to avg. a near 50% perils

got almost through the first session of that story before he rolled a 100 on the perils table and POOF out flops a happy teddy bear swining bloodthirster. it was pretty **** funny cus the group had JUST finished slaying this dumbed down version of a juggernaut too...... "RAWR YOU KICKED MA BLOOD DOG!!"

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Morangias said:

Reminds me of my face when I ran DH and two Acolytes managed to off a Carnifex in one round... using Autopistols. Old Righteous Fury, you are so random!



That's nothing! I had a psychic Arch-militant in RT who got in a lucky first action of the combat stun on a Lictor through psychic scream, and the entire rest of the fight was him going all Excessive Force with a power maul on it's fetal position ass.

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I have the official response about the Size Trait.

My question:

I have a question about the Size Trait.

The description of the trait seems to indicate that the to hit modifier applies to both ranged and melee attacks, but the combat chapter implies it's only applicable to ranged attacks. Which is correct?

Answer by Tim Huckelbery:

It's indeed both types of combat, ranged and melee.

 

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