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Eradico Pravus

Techmarine Allegiance

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I suppose he found a solutions that satisfy both...

 

a Tech was choose by the chapter and mutated into a space marine always by the chapter.......after he go to mars.

good rpg point.

 

personally, if a I was a tech of the wolf....my loyalty was first for the emperor and russ and to my sacred duty

 

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Like in all things space marine, they are all marine first then other affiliation second.  Likewise Librarian is a marine first and psyker second.  Most affiliations tend to be within the same organisation cept for the Techmarine.

But to me, a techmarine is a space marine and a son of the emperor first, and affiliated to Mars second.  For most chapters it seems to be this way, not sure bout the iron hands though.  Interesting Conundrum. 

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A Space Marines loyalty is always first to his fellow Battle Brothers/Chapter. Everything else is a second or third consideration depending on how much they love the Emperor. 

Like with the Iron Hands, they have Iron Fathers instead of Chaplains because they "worship" the Omnissiah more so than the Emperor (no Rosarius for them). In fact, many Space Marines beliefs and practices would be heresy if done by ordinary imperial subjects. That's part of the friction that comes into play between the Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Ministorum.

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 Even an Iron Hands Iron Father will pick chapter first. They're his blood brothers after all. Mars may be an intellectual peer, but only Brothers bear the genetic lineage of Ferrus Manus. And that always counts more. 

And I'm sure hypno-doctrination is used to promote this in all chapters. 

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The Chapter always comes first. Techmarines are only honorary Tech Priests with little actual ties to Mars (Iron Hands notwithstanding, but even they would never put the Mechanicum before their Chapter).

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I think many people are too quick to assume, by most accounts the Techmarine spends 100 years of their life on Mars the center of the Machine Cult faith being indoctrinated into their way of thinking. Moreover the tenets of their faith have to be worked into every aspect of their lives in order to properly execute their duties. That's a lot of conditioning to undo.

 

I think more often then not unless the techmarine is put into a bunary choice situation (i.e. chapters destruction vs cults destruction) they will choose the cult over their chapter. After all by the very nature of their job they keep secrets and mysteries from their brothers "for their own good" I think most times as long as they can rationalize it as somehow acceptable they'll back the machine cult.

 

If the Machine Cult and a Chapter are directly at odds then it's going to be a different thing, but I don't think the split would be as easy or deadset as people here believe. After all a techmarine is literally of a different religion then every other member of the chapter in most cases and must perform all the arduous tasks of keeping the chapter going for war surrounded by proud warrior types who value only battle. I can definitely see some alienation there elading to a break if put under stress.

 

In any case it's good RL potential all around.

 

In short, no the techmarine is not an Honorary Tech Priest, he is a Tech Priest who happens to be a space marine and if there's one thing the machine cult excels at it's indoctrination.

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A couple counterpoints:

-Mars is good at indoctrination. So are chapter chaplains. The Techmarine will be steeped in the chapter cult then sent to Mars. It's not unreasonable for him to be "deprogrammed" a bit when he returns as he's now back to being exposed to his chapter cult constantly. He's not a wholly different religion. He'll be more of a blend of two religions than exclusively one or the other. 

-100 years on Mars...after full chapter indoctrination and implantation and service in the 10th company. That's not insignificant. 

-The genetic point can't easily be brushed aside. Even the greatest Magos will never be a Brother. 

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My take on this is that you should separate their FACTION loyalties from their BELIEFS.

When it comes to their faction loyalties, a Techmarine really won't have much question. Their loyalty lies with their chapter first. I would even say that most TechMarines are even likely to put their loyalties to other Astartes (not of their chapter) ahead of any loyalty to the Mechanicum. Astartes are family, the Mechanicum is their university. Remember, they are only sent to Mars for training after they are full Marines. After that they come back and work in the Chapter forges, giving plenty of time for their training to be "corrected".

However, the chapter may embark on activity that runs afoul of the Techmarine's beliefs with respect to appropriate use of technology. That said, any such issue that would cause the Techmarine to object to the chapter's path is probably something other Marines would object to as profane use of tech as well.

In fluff, I can think of far more examples of Techmarines favoring Chapter over Mechanicum than the other way around. You've got variants of Rhinos and Land Raiders that were field expedients, which goes against Martian orthodoxy. You've got a shining example of a Techmarine juggling Chapter and Mission vs the Cult in the Helsreach novel.

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lurkeroutthere said:


In short, no the techmarine is not an Honorary Tech Priest, he is a Tech Priest who happens to be a space marine and if there's one thing the machine cult excels at it's indoctrination.

 

The core rulebook talks about this though, and states the Techmarine is an Astartes first, and a servant of Mars second.  They are allies, friends with, the Machine Cult, but they are an Astartes through and through.

CorpseGod said:

My take on this is that you should separate their FACTION loyalties from their BELIEFS.

This is a a very good way to look at it, IMO.  Well put.

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 Every source I've ever seen says thirty years, not one hundred. Other than that, I agree with everyone else. Techmarines are Chapter first, Mechanicus second.

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 Chapter. Definately.

 

Even the Iron Hands. They might like machines, but ultimately loyalty is to Chapter: The people they are surrounded by and have been for all bar five years of their adult lives. Plus there's all that hypno indoctranation.

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lurkeroutthere said:

I think many people are too quick to assume, by most accounts the Techmarine spends 100 years of their life on Mars the center of the Machine Cult faith being indoctrinated into their way of thinking. Moreover the tenets of their faith have to be worked into every aspect of their lives in order to properly execute their duties. That's a lot of conditioning to undo.

I think more often then not unless the techmarine is put into a bunary choice situation (i.e. chapters destruction vs cults destruction) they will choose the cult over their chapter. After all by the very nature of their job they keep secrets and mysteries from their brothers "for their own good" I think most times as long as they can rationalize it as somehow acceptable they'll back the machine cult.

If the Machine Cult and a Chapter are directly at odds then it's going to be a different thing, but I don't think the split would be as easy or deadset as people here believe. After all a techmarine is literally of a different religion then every other member of the chapter in most cases and must perform all the arduous tasks of keeping the chapter going for war surrounded by proud warrior types who value only battle. I can definitely see some alienation there elading to a break if put under stress. 

In any case it's good RL potential all around.

In short, no the techmarine is not an Honorary Tech Priest, he is a Tech Priest who happens to be a space marine and if there's one thing the machine cult excels at it's indoctrination.

lurkeroutthere said:

I think many people are too quick to assume, by most accounts the Techmarine spends 100 years of their life on Mars the center of the Machine Cult faith being indoctrinated into their way of thinking. Moreover the tenets of their faith have to be worked into every aspect of their lives in order to properly execute their duties. That's a lot of conditioning to undo.

I think more often then not unless the techmarine is put into a bunary choice situation (i.e. chapters destruction vs cults destruction) they will choose the cult over their chapter. After all by the very nature of their job they keep secrets and mysteries from their brothers "for their own good" I think most times as long as they can rationalize it as somehow acceptable they'll back the machine cult.

If the Machine Cult and a Chapter are directly at odds then it's going to be a different thing, but I don't think the split would be as easy or deadset as people here believe. After all a techmarine is literally of a different religion then every other member of the chapter in most cases and must perform all the arduous tasks of keeping the chapter going for war surrounded by proud warrior types who value only battle. I can definitely see some alienation there elading to a break if put under stress.

In any case it's good RL potential all around.

In short, no the techmarine is not an Honorary Tech Priest, he is a Tech Priest who happens to be a space marine and if there's one thing the machine cult excels at it's indoctrination.

I disagree on almost every point.

First, a quick correction, according to Deathwatch (and other sources I'm sure) a Techmarine spends 'only' 30 years on Mars being trained. A great deal of time, but in the greatly enhanced lifespan of a Space Marine, it's really not much. Equivalent to little more than the average human spends as a University student.

They will certainly have faith and loyalty to the Machine God and his cult, but a lot of that time is spent training the Techmarine in the use and details of the myriad of wargear used by the Astartes, as there's little point in shipping him all the way to Mars if that's not done right. While the indoctrination is found within such training as well, the whole routine would leave little time for the indepth kind of work it would take to secure any serious amount of loyalty from the Techmarine-in-training. And after all that time they're sent back to their Chapter, where their -real- bonds of brotherhood will quickly reinforced and reasserted as the dominant ones. Those 30 years will be overshadowed by the next hundred or two fighting and bleeding alongside those who share their genetic heritage, as an integral part of the Chapter that chose that elevated them from humble beginings in one of the harshest environments in the Imperium, to become a warrior demi-god in the service of the Master of Mankind. There's a whole lot more reason for them to cleave to the Chapter than the Adeptus Mechanicus.

And I think you're mistaken about the nature of their job, and why they keep those secrets. Sure, some of them will be best kept from their Brothers for their own good, but people often seem to forget that the citizens of the Imperium, let alone the Space Marines, have a totally different mindset from those of us who live in our modern age. If a Space Marine gives his word of honour, and swears an Oath to keep the secrets of the Machine God secret, then he's **** well going to keep them secret! Because that's what he said he'd do, even if it might be more pragmatic and practical to spread the information to the whole of the Chapter.

There's evidence of this, and I'll even ignore the novels, since there's never-ending arguements about how canon they are (though I think Helsreach is still a good example, where they 'borrow' one of the great weapons of the Ordinatus. Because screw the rules, they have Orks to kill!). Whenever we hear about some sort of radical design change to something that turned out to be great (yeah yeah, always to justify some new model), it's the Space Marines who've done it. The Crusader Land Raider, Ironclad Dreadnought, a Landspeeder model or two, and some others. Obviously they don't care too much about following approved Mechanicus processes when it comes changing designs, or probably even coming up with new stuff altogether.

I agree it's good RP potential, just not for the same reasons. I don't think there's going to be a whole lot of alienation involved. Yes Brother-Techmarine Jonas knows many strance and esoteric secrets, and his personal sanctum is full of all sorts of strange and often wondrous tech, but he is still a WARRIOR-Priest of the Machine-God, as well as a Space Marine. They're not a bunch of REMF's who sit around, performing tuneups on Rhinos and grumbling about people blowing the transmission because they can't shift gears properly. They're just as proud of all that because it is because of their expertise that all those weapons of war are able to keep killing the vile heretics, xenos, and traitors that infest the stars.

A Techmarine is a Space Marine who happens to be a Tech Priest, not the other way around.

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Eradico Pravus said:

Next I'll try to settle that "minor" theological question of Emperor vs. Omnissiah... gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

What question? They are one and the same according to official dogma of both the Cult of the God-Emperor and the Cult of the Machine God. Both are just different ways of venerating the same god.

Or

What question? The vast bulk of Space Marine chapters venerate the Emperor as an ancestor and hero figure, NOT as a god. They would also see him as the Omnissiah in the same light. The Emperor created the Astartes via the use of technology, so an Astartes is likely to see himself as an embodiment of the fusion of the Emperors role's both in nurturing humanity and its technology.

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Blood Pact said:

There's evidence of this, and I'll even ignore the novels, since there's never-ending arguements about how canon they are (though I think Helsreach is still a good example, where they 'borrow' one of the great weapons of the Ordinatus. Because screw the rules, they have Orks to kill!). Whenever we hear about some sort of radical design change to something that turned out to be great (yeah yeah, always to justify some new model), it's the Space Marines who've done it. The Crusader Land Raider, Ironclad Dreadnought, a Landspeeder model or two, and some others. Obviously they don't care too much about following approved Mechanicus processes when it comes changing designs, or probably even coming up with new stuff altogether.

Not to mention the Blood Angels and their Baal Predator.

If anyone doesn't understand what I mean.

If tech marines held their loyalty to the mechanicum over their chapter the Baal Predator design would have long ago been handed over to Mars. As it hasn't, and the Blood Angels are willing to risk the censure of Mars to maintain direct control over the design, it indicates very strongly where a tech-marines true loyalty lies. To the chapter.

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Eh i've said my piece and I feel pretty confident in that. However for all those that think it's so cut and dry? Why are there traitor legions? Afterall if every space marine always goes and does whats right and proper and honorable by their chapter and their brotherhood certainly none of them would have fallen to chaos etc

Again I think if the CoM had an actual open conflict with a space marine chapter then as many out of 8 of 10 Techmarines would stand with their chapter. But you might have a significant reluctance even amongst the loyalists. Good thing more often then not the CoM and the space marines have a very good relationship, if anything the Macine Cult as are close to peers as the Astartes have in many situations, their both independent of the Imperium and unlike almost any other faction the Space Marines rely on the Machine Cult for their continued existence and ability to do their jobs.

Lets say though that a deathwatch KT is assisting in operations on a forge world or another world where the machine cult holds large interests. I think If the machien cult came to a Tech Marine and asls them to keep secrets or falsify data or otherwise keep the KT, the Deathwatch and others in the dark so long as it wasn't out and out heresy the Techmarine would do it, he wouldn't be happy about it, but they are literally men of two worlds, or really three as the case may be.

 

Just my two requisition points..

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Well, I think we're all speaking in general terms, and there are always exceptions.  There is some fluff that supports what you bring up (about Techmarines not being totally trusted and kept out of the Chapter's inner workings and the like), but others says the Techmarine is an Astartes first and foremost.  That supports your idea that it isn't cut and dry.

And as for open conflict with the Cult Mechanicus and a Space Marine chapter?  Of course there would be reluctance, the whole empire would be reluctant to engage in that kind of open conflict.  But unless the Soul Drinkers have no tech priests or tech marines (which would imply their ships and armor would eventually fall into a state of disrepair) then you're going to have a good number that side with the chapter.

All that aside, the situation you present, I think,  would make for a fantastic RP opportunity.  No mater how you slice it, if you have three loyalties that you've swarn oaths to, you may find yourself in a pickle.

I still like Corpse's imagining, that we should be separating beliefs from loyalties.  In the case you mention if you do that, and the request from the mechanicum is NOT heresy, then you're not really breaking a bond with your friends, you're just trying to help out your other friends.  You're still loyal to the SMs, however your beliefs are in line with the mechanicum, and if the mechanicum says the SMs shouldn't have a bit of info, you might be inclined to agree.

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CorpseGod said:

 

Eradico Pravus said:

 

Next I'll try to settle that "minor" theological question of Emperor vs. Omnissiah... gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

 

 

What question? They are one and the same according to official dogma of both the Cult of the God-Emperor and the Cult of the Machine God. Both are just different ways of venerating the same god.

Or

What question? The vast bulk of Space Marine chapters venerate the Emperor as an ancestor and hero figure, NOT as a god. They would also see him as the Omnissiah in the same light. The Emperor created the Astartes via the use of technology, so an Astartes is likely to see himself as an embodiment of the fusion of the Emperors role's both in nurturing humanity and its technology.

 

 

Comment meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Thus the smiley! :)  gui%C3%B1o.gif

I really like your concise description of Imperial orthodoxy, however. Thanks!!

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Siranui said:

 The Black Templar space marine battles novel also features a Techmarine who happily ignores the whims of the Ad Mec to break out some  planet-saving tech.

 

Yes but by that logic the only reason the Codex astartes exists is so that the protagonist Ultramarine can show what a rebel they are by breaking it.

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The Ad Mech voice is far from being single minded...

There are more factions and cults in the Machine Cults then can be countent. Many forge world have thier own idealogy that can put them against Astartes (the Pear of Destiny from the Soul Drinker Novels), the Ad Mech have even taken arms against chapters for ideological belief.

Now shoudl another Chapter have a very tight link to that offending Forge World, they may come to help the Forge World vbecause it provides them with ver important material even at cost of creating a rift between it and another chapter...

The Empire is vast and the possible permutatino infite.

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lurkeroutthere said:

Yes but by that logic the only reason the Codex astartes exists is so that the protagonist Ultramarine can show what a rebel they are by breaking it.

It wasn't logic, but an observation.

If a player wishes to highlight a conflict in their roleplay, that's fine. But seeing the Ad Mech as more important the the Chapter is going to be very much a minority opinion amongst Tech Marines.

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