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cadleo

Lannister concerns. Game is unbalanced.

85 posts in this topic

 Disclaimer: I have played once and it was as baratheon. I am not intimately familiar with each card but believe I have a grasp.

It has been clearly stated that lannister can not hold riverrun in the first turn against a determined greyjoy, and jhagen has posted the "surefire" strategy to always win riverrun first turn and destroy lannister. 

Using Jhagen's script, the greyjoy has placed march - 1 on his ship and march - 0 on pike.  

Meanwhile, lannister placed march - 1 on stoney sept, support +1 on golden sound, and march +1 on lannisport. 

 

Please remember: Lannister acts first on the first turn and may play 3 * order tokens. 

Order of events in action phase:

Lannister resolves the march -1 to move the footman into lannisport.

Greyjoy resolves march +0 to move knight into riverrun and footman into seagard.

Lannister resolves march +1 into riverrun with 1 knight and 2 footman. (4+1 = 5 strength). support +1 is added from golden sound (now 7 strength). Kevan lannister is used (I am not sure if he is 2 or 3 or 4 strength but its irrelevant). Kevan adds 2 more strength for the footmen (9 strength) and lets say 2 for himself (11 str). 

So greyjoy has played damphair and may pay 2 power to switch him out for... balon greyjoy? balon would increase the knights strength to 4 total and reduce lannister strength to 9. Euron would increase greyjoy strength to 6 but leave lannister at 11. Even if greyjoy had marched both the footman AND the knight into riverrrun this would be insufficient to withstand the lannister attack. 

Actually, the support isnt even required in golden sound. You can play a defense + 2 in golden sound. That way when greyjoy attacks golden sound he is starting at -1 to your +2 and he no longer has aeron damphair so might have to blow balon or euron.

 

Anyway, if someone can tell me where I am wrong, feel free. Sure, its a lot of effort to win riverrun but thats a stronghold for you and 1 less for greyjoy. 

 

Also, dont forget lannister has the raven and can switch out one of those orders if he sees something different shape up. Finally, the lannister player should be making every overture to stark to take advantage of a preoccupied greyjoy and start moving in from the north.

 

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 I was worried when I saw that this area of the map looked so much like the first edition. This was the #1 issues that needed to be fixed. #2, that Baratheon Has it too easy has also been mentioned. That neither of these have been addressed undermines the entire point of even making a second edition.

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Hopper2k said:

 Disclaimer: I have played once and it was as baratheon. I am not intimately familiar with each card but believe I have a grasp.

It has been clearly stated that lannister can not hold riverrun in the first turn against a determined greyjoy, and jhagen has posted the "surefire" strategy to always win riverrun first turn and destroy lannister. 

Using Jhagen's script, the greyjoy has placed march - 1 on his ship and march - 0 on pike.  

Meanwhile, lannister placed march - 1 on stoney sept, support +1 on golden sound, and march +1 on lannisport. 

 

Please remember: Lannister acts first on the first turn and may play 3 * order tokens. 

Order of events in action phase:

Lannister resolves the march -1 to move the footman into lannisport.

Greyjoy resolves march +0 to move knight into riverrun and footman into seagard.

Lannister resolves march +1 into riverrun with 1 knight and 2 footman. (4+1 = 5 strength). support +1 is added from golden sound (now 7 strength). Kevan lannister is used (I am not sure if he is 2 or 3 or 4 strength but its irrelevant). Kevan adds 2 more strength for the footmen (9 strength) and lets say 2 for himself (11 str). 

So greyjoy has played damphair and may pay 2 power to switch him out for... balon greyjoy? balon would increase the knights strength to 4 total and reduce lannister strength to 9. Euron would increase greyjoy strength to 6 but leave lannister at 11. Even if greyjoy had marched both the footman AND the knight into riverrrun this would be insufficient to withstand the lannister attack. 

Actually, the support isnt even required in golden sound. You can play a defense + 2 in golden sound. That way when greyjoy attacks golden sound he is starting at -1 to your +2 and he no longer has aeron damphair so might have to blow balon or euron.

 

Anyway, if someone can tell me where I am wrong, feel free. Sure, its a lot of effort to win riverrun but thats a stronghold for you and 1 less for greyjoy. 

 

Also, dont forget lannister has the raven and can switch out one of those orders if he sees something different shape up. Finally, the lannister player should be making every overture to stark to take advantage of a preoccupied greyjoy and start moving in from the north.

 

thanks for your input, and save for a point here or there your counter to the script is sound with regards to it.

But remember, you are countering my script only. with respect to a all out assault on Lannister.

Historically (in now close to 2 dozen games played with only one 3 player game) Lannister token orders are:

Golden sound = raid or support

Lannisport = march +1 or consolidate*

stoney sept = march +0 or support +1

Lannister either tries for riverrun with the knight from Lannisport with support from the sound, or just spreads out taking as many open lands as he can.

stoney sept almost always rolls into harrenhal for the guaranteed muster point.

after a few games the Lannister player realizes the futility of trying for riverrun and just consolidates in Lannisport to stave off the iron tide.

 The counter to your move orders is to:

consume march -1 token in Ironmans bay and not move, allow Lannister to roll into riverrun. then faceroll them once they land.

kev lannister is useless on the defense. so the lone knight from Pike can land. follow script for card playing.

.....

next!

 

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Again, Greyjoy can take and hold Riverrun from Lannister, provided they want to commit 100% of their army to doing so.  The problem is that doing so leaves their flank open to Stark, who can take Seagard (and kill a unit or two in the process).  Once Stark removes the support from Riverrun, it leaves it open to an attack from Lannister.

I find it difficult to believe that a "skilled" Greyjoy player can defend on two fronts.  I also find it difficult to believe that a "skilled" Stark player, when seeing the opportunity to damage their most powerful neighbor, would not take advantage.  Stark can absolutely take and hold Seagard, especially considering the damage he and Lannister can do to Greyjoy's army when taking Seagard and Riverrun.  It's hard to mount a counterattack when your army has been killed.

Greyjoy has to defend two fronts almost immediately, and is the only player that has to do so.  That is why they need more powerful cards than the other players.

A central piece of strategy in this game is for each player to provide a check on their neighbors.  If your neighbor is committing a lot of troops to attacking their other neighbor, then you should take advantage of the weakened front and attack them.  That is what a skilled Stark should do.  Otherwise, if Greyjoy becomes powerful at Lannister's expense, then Greyjoy will go for Winterfell, and win the game.  A skilled Stark should not let Greyjoy get too powerful too easily.

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goldbach said:

Again, Greyjoy can take and hold Riverrun from Lannister, provided they want to commit 100% of their army to doing so.  The problem is that doing so leaves their flank open to Stark, who can take Seagard (and kill a unit or two in the process).  Once Stark removes the support from Riverrun, it leaves it open to an attack from Lannister.

I find it difficult to believe that a "skilled" Greyjoy player can defend on two fronts.  I also find it difficult to believe that a "skilled" Stark player, when seeing the opportunity to damage their most powerful neighbor, would not take advantage.  Stark can absolutely take and hold Seagard, especially considering the damage he and Lannister can do to Greyjoy's army when taking Seagard and Riverrun.  It's hard to mount a counterattack when your army has been killed.

Greyjoy has to defend two fronts almost immediately, and is the only player that has to do so.  That is why they need more powerful cards than the other players.

A central piece of strategy in this game is for each player to provide a check on their neighbors.  If your neighbor is committing a lot of troops to attacking their other neighbor, then you should take advantage of the weakened front and attack them.  That is what a skilled Stark should do.  Otherwise, if Greyjoy becomes powerful at Lannister's expense, then Greyjoy will go for Winterfell, and win the game.  A skilled Stark should not let Greyjoy get too powerful too easily.

sigh.

play the game with stark more than 2 times and you will see what is the standard play for stark:

turn 1.

march +0 in winterfell

consolidate(*) in white harbor

ship march +1 in shivering sea

this is to spread out to power icons to command the bidding tracks, make a quick bid for adjacent sea areas to barratheon and build a ship unit in port to support it.

OR

Consolidate(*) in winterfell

march +0 in white harbor

ship march +1 in shivering sea

similar to the above strategy, white harbor moves to moat carin. and winterfell builds ships on both coasts to support agains barratheon and greyjoy.

 

Stark cannot win the game with arms, (he would have to take seagard or harrenhal to hit 7 victory points)

but he can control the game with his massive supply of power icons and easily defended borders. easily hit 5 or 6 victory for the final turn for a sleeper win.

what stark cant do is take and hold seagard. it is a bottleneck attack from moat carin. (which is starks ONLY support location) and can be assaulted and supported from no less that 2 other adjacent regions possessed by Greyjoy in the first turn.

Starks objective (long term) is to hold his own against greyjoy and barratheon, take the northern provinces, stockpile massive armies. then pounce late game for the burst to 7 victory.

 

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I agree with you in general about Stark's long-term strategy -- it's just that they are very unlikely to achieve that goal if Greyjoy gets too powerful too quickly. 

Having won as Stark multiple times, I must say that I'm not a fan of the first turn Mustering in Winterfell.  There's a 5/9 chance that Mustering will occur after Round 1 anyway, which reduces the advantages gained by doing so quite a bit.  I prefer to march the units out of Winterfell and grab resources -- including moving my Knight to Moat Cailin.  I agree with you that moving the boat to the Narrow Sea is a must.

The scenario in which Stark takes and holds Seagard is the scenario in which Greyjoy is overextended into both Riverrun and Seagard.  Greyjoy cannot defend both, and will take casualties -- thus reducing the likelihood of a successful counterattack on the next turn. 

Of course, Stark shouldn't attack Seagard unless it's not being defended well enough by Greyjoy.  However, if Greyjoy is defending Seagard, then Lannister should have enough power to take back Riverrun, so it's a moot point.

 

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 Hi All

 

First post on this forum so bear with me if I don't follow "protocol".

I got my AGoT 2e yesterday and cracked it open to see if the board was warped (it was) and when I had it open I decided to look at the Lannister/Greyjoy situation.

 

I don't understand all the fuss, there's plenty Lannister can do to prevent Greyjoy rolling them.

 

A defensive way is t o follow Kurbuttis example, consolidate power+ in Lannisport to build siege engine and move foot from Stoney Sept to Harrenhall with march +1. Use the hound if the ship is attacked and retreat into port, this ship can have any order.

Turn two and no muster, place Support+1 in Harrenhall, Attack+1 in Lannisport and raid in port. Now let Kevan Lannister attack Riverrun with a strength of 13 (reduced to 12 if Balon is used)

Turn two and muster, uppgrade foot to knight in Lannisport and upgrade foot to siege engine in Harrenhall, order as above and let the mountain attack Riverrun with strength of 17 (14 against Balon)

I doubt Greyjoy can match this.

 

Another version, if Greyjoy follow the script above (i.e. don't have march order in Greywater watch) then use all three march orders (use the parrot if need be) with the +1 in Stoney Sept.

Start with voiding the march in Golden Sound, now Lannister can adjust his play after Greyjoy instead.

Next move foot and horse from Lannisport to Stoney Sept.

If Greyjoy have a single horse or less in Riverrun after all his marches are done, let Kevan Lannister attack with strength of 8 (7 against Balon).

If Greyjoy moved all forces from Pyke to Riverrun then move one foot to Harrenghall and return the other foot and horse to Lannisport and follow the turn two example earlier. The strength will be 9(8) or 16(13). If Greyjoy isn't placing march at Riverrun use the parrot again to adjust.

So I don't consider Lannister so poor after all, and there could be a bidding in turn two and Greyjoy loose the sword, or widling attack or whatever, it's Game of Thrones after all...

 

All said, I'll probably still use Tyrell instead of Greyjoy in 4 player gamse as suggested, to get earlier pressure on Baratheon.

 

Cheers

 

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Frocken said:

 Hi All

 

First post on this forum so bear with me if I don't follow "protocol".

I got my AGoT 2e yesterday and cracked it open to see if the board was warped (it was) and when I had it open I decided to look at the Lannister/Greyjoy situation.

 

I don't understand all the fuss, there's plenty Lannister can do to prevent Greyjoy rolling them.

 

A defensive way is t o follow Kurbuttis example, consolidate power+ in Lannisport to build siege engine and move foot from Stoney Sept to Harrenhall with march +1. Use the hound if the ship is attacked and retreat into port, this ship can have any order.

Turn two and no muster, place Support+1 in Harrenhall, Attack+1 in Lannisport and raid in port. Now let Kevan Lannister attack Riverrun with a strength of 13 (reduced to 12 if Balon is used)

Turn two and muster, uppgrade foot to knight in Lannisport and upgrade foot to siege engine in Harrenhall, order as above and let the mountain attack Riverrun with strength of 17 (14 against Balon)

I doubt Greyjoy can match this.

 

Another version, if Greyjoy follow the script above (i.e. don't have march order in Greywater watch) then use all three march orders (use the parrot if need be) with the +1 in Stoney Sept.

Start with voiding the march in Golden Sound, now Lannister can adjust his play after Greyjoy instead.

Next move foot and horse from Lannisport to Stoney Sept.

If Greyjoy have a single horse or less in Riverrun after all his marches are done, let Kevan Lannister attack with strength of 8 (7 against Balon).

If Greyjoy moved all forces from Pyke to Riverrun then move one foot to Harrenghall and return the other foot and horse to Lannisport and follow the turn two example earlier. The strength will be 9(8) or 16(13). If Greyjoy isn't placing march at Riverrun use the parrot again to adjust.

So I don't consider Lannister so poor after all, and there could be a bidding in turn two and Greyjoy loose the sword, or widling attack or whatever, it's Game of Thrones after all...

 

All said, I'll probably still use Tyrell instead of Greyjoy in 4 player gamse as suggested, to get earlier pressure on Baratheon.

 

Cheers

 

 

Go (re)read Jhagens posts.

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I think the important thing here is to also realize that in order for lannister to defend itself agains an emminent defeat at the hands of greyjoy,

Lannister cannot:

1. Expand to many regions to collect power or supply or castles.

2. Consider his vast options for moves and differing strategies for the ensuing game.

3. Play the game as every other house can.

4. Most importantly, have fun.

 

It has become such an issue that i am not allowed/refuse to play Greyjoy in the high number of player games, because i make the game "not fun" for the Lannister player.

What kind of game do you think the Lannister player will have if Greyjoy decides to NOT attack right away? saving his assault for say turn 3 or 4? and Lannister is stuck holding the bag with a massive defensive army in Lannisport and nowhere to go with it. All the while everyone else is moving and expanding and playing the game.

 

+++side note+++

Also realize that "mustering" and " a game of thrones" can come up turn 2.

if that happens, Lannister is REALLY done for. cause then Greyjoy bids 5 tokens for the throne and moves before Lannister and thusly ends any other argument for taking Riverrun or holding Lannisport.

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jhagen said:

I think the important thing here is to also realize that in order for lannister to defend itself agains an emminent defeat at the hands of greyjoy,

Lannister cannot:

1. Expand to many regions to collect power or supply or castles.

2. Consider his vast options for moves and differing strategies for the ensuing game.

3. Play the game as every other house can.

4. Most importantly, have fun.

 

It has become such an issue that i am not allowed/refuse to play Greyjoy in the high number of player games, because i make the game "not fun" for the Lannister player.

What kind of game do you think the Lannister player will have if Greyjoy decides to NOT attack right away? saving his assault for say turn 3 or 4? and Lannister is stuck holding the bag with a massive defensive army in Lannisport and nowhere to go with it. All the while everyone else is moving and expanding and playing the game.

 

+++side note+++

Also realize that "mustering" and " a game of thrones" can come up turn 2.

if that happens, Lannister is REALLY done for. cause then Greyjoy bids 5 tokens for the throne and moves before Lannister and thusly ends any other argument for taking Riverrun or holding Lannisport.

Well, by making Greyjoy postpone the assault until turn 3 or 4 would mean that Lannister has succeeded with his first objective. He have to deal with the assault when the situation arises and depending on how the board looks and what support he can get from the other houses. Just as I have given an example on how to act with the scripted orders earlier.

Granted, there are other ways Greyjoy can take and hold Riverrun with one horse which may require other countermeasures.

As for the side note, if Greyjoy goes for the throne with 5 tokens he looses the sword and will probably loose draws against Lannister which may or may not affect his chances to take Lannisport.

Now, regarding if it's fun to play Lannister, I don't mind asymmetrical games. I enjoy knowing that every decision must be very thought through and every risk well calculated just in order to survive as long as I feel that I have a chance, which I still do. If I succeed I can feel really good about myself, and if not I'll probably be angry for a while, but it passes and I'll get to spend an evening with some good friends which is the reason I play in the first place.

 

I can understand though why more competitive players get their gaming experience ruined by not having equal conditions from the start.

 

Cheers

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couple issues...you cannot muster a ship from seagard. Mustering from ports only.

Lannister can play a defense +2 in the golden sound.

You do not address the issue of Lannister building a seige engine. If they do this, then on turn 2, they can raid river's defese order, or the ships support order, making it a 6-2 fight, easily.  

Due to lannister's priority, and high number of special move icons, having played the game about dozen times, with usually 3-5 players, greyjoy never holds riverrun.

Also, if turn 2 stark musters a boat into the bay of ice, and are bold, they can take the moat, greywater watch, and flints finger on turn 2, leaving greyjoy extremely exposed.

the "Lannister's retribution" strategy, as I call it, has worked for me well, once basically destroying all of greyjoys land power in a turn.

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pinchergram said:

couple issues...you cannot muster a ship from seagard. Mustering from ports only.

Lannister can play a defense +2 in the golden sound.

You do not address the issue of Lannister building a seige engine. If they do this, then on turn 2, they can raid river's defese order, or the ships support order, making it a 6-2 fight, easily.  

Due to lannister's priority, and high number of special move icons, having played the game about dozen times, with usually 3-5 players, greyjoy never holds riverrun.

Also, if turn 2 stark musters a boat into the bay of ice, and are bold, they can take the moat, greywater watch, and flints finger on turn 2, leaving greyjoy extremely exposed.

the "Lannister's retribution" strategy, as I call it, has worked for me well, once basically destroying all of greyjoys land power in a turn.

couple issues with your post:

pinchergram said:


couple issues...you cannot muster a ship from seagard. Mustering from ports only.

You say you have played the game a dozen times? i find that a dubious statement considering page 9 mustering example states:

3. Since he already has an army of three Knights at Riverrun,
he uses one of his mustering points at Riverrun to place another
Ship in the Golden Sound (which is adjacent to Riverrun),
creating an army of two Ships. He cannot use the one remaining
mustering point at Riverrun since he has met his Supply limit.

pinchergram said:


You do not address the issue of Lannister building a seige engine. If they do this, then on turn 2, they can raid river's defese order, or the ships support order, making it a 6-2 fight, easily.

Nor do i address "clash of kings", cause if that comes up, your precious "Lannister's retribution strategy" is done for. cause then Greyjoy bids for the throne, goes first, and rubs your plans out. regardless of your cards played. or units mustered.

the script i posted was an all out assault on Lannister on the high probability of what the standard moves that lannister does. all the script dealt with was a 2 turn lannisport on a muster.

pinchergram said:


Also, if turn 2 stark musters a boat into the bay of ice, and are bold, they can take the moat, greywater watch, and flints finger on turn 2, leaving greyjoy extremely exposed.

There is no strategic reason for stark to send ships north to Greyjoy. This statement could not be more wrong.

please see cadleo's posts regarding Starks diplomacy with Lannister.

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OK. So we know exactly how the Lannisters loose against Greyjoys in 1-to-1.

 

What about the possibilities to balance the game? I have not played yet. Will be having my first game tonight.

 

Will the following help to balance the game:

1. Reducing the number of starting units for Greyjoy.

2. Increasing the number of starting units for Lannister

3. Making Riverrun a second starting location for Lannisters

4. Making Moal Cailin a second starting location for Starks

 

It also looks to me that most of you play every man for himself, rather than building alliances. How a bout a shared victory? Two players alliance wins if they hold Kings Landing, Winterfell, Riverrun and 10 other Strongholds/Castles, as well as controlling the Iron Throne token.

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I have just played the game for the first time and I don not feel that there is a problem with the Lannisters. Yes they have hard time if Grayjoys will decide to pick on them, but that leaves the Greyjoys at a mercy of the Starks. Greyjoys have much better option of taking over the Seaguard and fortifying there.  I think most of you are just playing against Lannisters.

 

I do not feel that the Baratheons are in that a good position. If they will allow themselves to loose the control of the sea they are stuck. Starks are in good position but they have to spread themselves thinly which is risky but that's when the alliances come into play.

 

 

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I had a question about this topic, in particulat for jhagen as you seem to be well versed in this game. Let me preface this by saying I have never played this game and will be playing it with a bunch of new players this weekend for the first time. I have been reading up as much as I can to ensure we have the best possible gaming experience that we can. In the archived forums this topic came up and vendredi gave what seemed to be pretty decent counter to the initial Greyjoy assault that seems to be solid enough to even convince Greyjoy not to take Riverrun at the start of the game. What are your thoughts on this?

Here is the link to the old thread and a copy paste of the strategy I am talking about:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=66&efcid=28&efidt=584954

vendredi said:

Long-time lurker who finally managed to pick up a copy of 2nd edition for myself. I've been following discussions of the "Lannister weakness" here and on BGG, but it doesn't really ring true to me after looking at the game...

From the "theme" standpoint, I actually think the Lannister position is quite faithful to the first book. Remember that:

{SPOILERS FOR BOOK 1)

 

 

1. Cersei bribes the gold cloaks to take King's Landing but the actual number of Lannister swords in the city is very small.

2. Tywin is furious with Joffrey for executing Ned, because the Lannisters are caught between Baratheon-Tyrell and Stark in the North and fighting on two fronts. He dispatches Tyrion with a real Lannister force to try and hold King's Landing.

3. Lannister loses every proper Stark engagement save for the feint by Bolton, which puts paid the notion that the gold of Casterly Rock somehow enables the Lannisters to fight any better than the northmen.

4. Balon Greyjoy decides to go after Stark rather than much richer Lannister due to a personal grudge against the Starks.

 

 

 

{SPOILERS END HERE}

So really, the book Lannisters aren't really all that more powerful than they're represented on the board game. They're just very lucky and very good at politicking - both of which are adequately represented by their positions on the Influence tracks: lousy on Fiefdoms, best at the King's Court, and second best on the Throne.

 

Now, from the game balance perspective...

Karl M said:

So we did many scenarios in which the Greyjoy tried to take Riverrun and saw that it was impossible for the Lannister player to counter in any way. We spent a couple of hours trying to see if somehow we were wrong but it seems we are not. This is by not applying the new Battle cards systems. It all because of the Aeron Damphair card that let you see the opponent card and for the cost 2 power token makes you changed the card ( but Aeron is discarded) Combined with the +1 the Valyrian blade it gives no chance to the Lannister player.

 

While Damphair allows the Greyjoy player to dictate the outcome of every battle, 2 power does hurt! Also, Lannister can dictate the strategic situation so long as they hold the Messenger Raven - they can change orders. If Greyjoy holds 2 power in order to use the Damphair, they're unlikely to gain on the King's Court Track and likely will not have special orders. I think the combination of special orders, the Raven, plus the fact that Lannister will act before Greyjoy makes them very deadly and hardly a pushover. The key is to use the Raven to change key orders from raids to support, and staying ahead of Greyjoy in turn order - both easy to do if Greyjoy must conserve power for Aeron.

Here is my proposed: "Riverrun or Bust" Lannister opening:

1. March -1 for your starting ship. If a march shows up on the Iron Fleet, then you can retreat to the Port at Lannisport, where you can continually raid any attempt at Greyjoy fleet support with impunity. If Greyjoy doesn't try to smash the Lannister fleet, then you can continually raid their ship support and force them to split up if they want to do something.

If a March doesn't show up on the Iron Fleet, use the Raven to change the fleet action to raid to counter any Greyjoy attempts at raiding or support.

2. Move the footman from Stoney Sept to Harrenhal.

3. Special Order consolidate in Lannisport and muster another knight (or siege tower if you want Riverrun for sure!).

You are ahead of Greyjoy in total strength even if a mustering comes up and can raid any attempt at support from the sea with your navy. Greyjoy likely has access to very few special orders as well if he's holding out for Damphair and won't be likely to rise on the Court track if a Clash comes up.

4a. (no muster drawn) Play Special March +1 in Lannisport, Raid in the sea, and Special Raid in Harrenhal (to remove any defence orders). Switch one of the Raids using the Raven with a Special Support +1 order if you can afford it (either the ship or the footman). With a +1 March Knight/Knight/Footman in Lannisport, a Footman/Ship +1 Support, you have 8 strength. If you were gutsy and went for the Siege Tower, you have 10! Even if somehow you cannot place a support, you have 6 (8) and should be able to deny at least some ship support to Greyjoy land forces (even if you had to hole up in port you should be able to raid the surrounding sea), who can at best manage 3 (the Knight/Footman stack) + 1 (another Footman) +1 (if he split his ships, but this may not be likely) +1 (Valyrian) = 6, which is still beatable if you took the Siege Tower option. Play Gregor Clegane; Greyjoy's best defenders cannot avoid all casualties and an early game bloodying will give you the edge you need for further battles.

4b. (muster) You have even more options here. Add another ship and change the Footman in Lannisport to a third Knight, and muster another Footman in Harrenhal or upgrade to Siege Tower. Either way you have an overwhelming force that can take Riverrun. Note that if a muster was drawn, Greyjoy may decide to go after Lannisport if he has control of the sea, but if you were able to crush Riverrun, retaking Lannisport and bloodying the remaining Greyjoy forces even further is easily doable. This may be costly though if Greyjoy forced your ship into port earlier and thus take the ship from you, but hey, no war is ever completely free from risk.

You may want to use Tywin for Riverrun and save Gregor Clegane for retaking Lannisport, but I'd rather have the guaranteed casualties on Riverrun and bet that Greyjoy will likely ask for some breathing room.

I feel this opening has the fewest number of holes in it, but let me know if I've missed anything. Trying to hold both Lannisport and take Riverrun at the same time is tricky but I think it's still doable for the Lannisters. Greyjoy cannot use any special orders on turn 1 (at least if you're playing five players), so they definitely cannot out-muster you at the opening.

I feel G. Clegane is the best leader for an early battle against Greyjoy; taking one or two units off Greyjoy early is needed to blunt his bite and teach him not to mess with the lions, although you may prefer the power tokens afforded by Tywin, or alternately, you may want to go Footman heavy and use Kevan so as not to burn your best leaders early. The key again behind the strategy is to exploit the Messenger Raven, Special Orders, plus the fact Lannister acts first.

 

But again, this strategy is only if you want Riverrun and must have it early. Personally I feel Riverrun makes a better bargaining chip with either Stark or Greyjoy. Lannister can easily surround Riverrun at any time and apply some serious pressure on the holder in favour of the other northern power, so using it as a bargaining chip can make either northern player play a little nicer.

Also, do spoiler tags work on this forum?

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Ok, I'll bite.  Lannister first turn orders and moves:

Golden Sound Support +1

Lannisport Move +0

Stoney Sept Move +1

 

Lannister first move is Kn and Fm to Stoney.

Greyjoy first move:  if fleet to golden sound, no move from Pyke.  If Kn to Riverrun and Fm to Seaguard, then Lannister counterattack 7 to 2 to take riverrun, or 6 to 2 and Fm take Harrenhal.  If Greyjoy wants Riverrun turn 1, you have to forfeit Iron Sound move, and Golden Sound is safe.

 

Lannister then moves Kn and 2 Fm to Riverrun.

 

Greyjoy MUST move Kn and Fm to Riverrun,so Seaguard is left open.  With 3 v. 6, Greyjoy would have to play Balon to win, or risk Clegane killing your army.  Riverrun taken, Lannister retreat Kn to Stoney, Fm to Harrenhal, and Fm to Seaguard.

 

Turn 2, if muster and assuming no COK, the most Greyjoy can defend with is 7 (5 in Riverrun + two ships, or 4 in River and 3 ships).  Even without a siege engine, Lannister can bring Seaguard Kn and Fm March +1; Harrenhal Kn support; Stoney Kn support +1; Lannister Fm support (additional muster point for ship in port), and Golden sound special raid, for a total of 10 v. 7 and Clegane takes out two units.  Even if no muster, still 6 v. 4 and Tywin knocks you out.  Lannister on turn 2 holds Riverrun, Harrenhal, Stoney Sept, and Lannisport.

I just don't see any inevitable Greyjoy victory here.

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 I will posit the caveat that I am relatively new to the game, firstly. But, my group has not had a problem with Lannister being pwned. In fact, Lannister seems to be in a good position. If a good player is commanding House Stark, in a 4-player game, Greyjoy has a lot more to think about than rolling the Lannisters… 

 

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pinchergram said:

couple issues…you cannot muster a ship from seagard. Mustering from ports only.

Check the rules again.  You do NOT need a port in order to muster a ship into a friendly or empty sea area.  You only need the sea area to be adjacent to the mustering castle/stronghold.

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retribution814 said:

Ok, I'll bite.  Lannister first turn orders and moves:

Golden Sound Support +1

Lannisport Move +0

Stoney Sept Move +1

 

Lannister first move is Kn and Fm to Stoney.

Greyjoy first move:  if fleet to golden sound, no move from Pyke.  If Kn to Riverrun and Fm to Seaguard, then Lannister counterattack 7 to 2 to take riverrun, or 6 to 2 and Fm take Harrenhal.  If Greyjoy wants Riverrun turn 1, you have to forfeit Iron Sound move, and Golden Sound is safe.

 

Lannister then moves Kn and 2 Fm to Riverrun.

 

Greyjoy MUST move Kn and Fm to Riverrun,so Seaguard is left open.  With 3 v. 6, Greyjoy would have to play Balon to win, or risk Clegane killing your army.  Riverrun taken, Lannister retreat Kn to Stoney, Fm to Harrenhal, and Fm to Seaguard.

 

Turn 2, if muster and assuming no COK, the most Greyjoy can defend with is 7 (5 in Riverrun + two ships, or 4 in River and 3 ships).  Even without a siege engine, Lannister can bring Seaguard Kn and Fm March +1; Harrenhal Kn support; Stoney Kn support +1; Lannister Fm support (additional muster point for ship in port), and Golden sound special raid, for a total of 10 v. 7 and Clegane takes out two units.  Even if no muster, still 6 v. 4 and Tywin knocks you out.  Lannister on turn 2 holds Riverrun, Harrenhal, Stoney Sept, and Lannisport.

I just don't see any inevitable Greyjoy victory here.

You have to retreat all unit's to same area!

 

 

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 I have not read this whole thread. I do not have the time. Balon Greyjoy's house card is the real issue. Personally I like the imbalance because it forces me to be a better player, but the thing to remember when fighting Greyjoy is to take Ironmans bay at all costs. The player who controls Ironmans bay controls the neck. As for Jaime Lannister's house card, I think the first book explains it perfectly. He is a great swordsman and a brash commander, easily tricked. Also many of the house cards do not accurately represent the character, take Mace Tyrell for example. Its simple really you only have 7 cards and they all have to fit into the one 0 two 1 two 2 one 3 and one 4 format.

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So after reading the majority of this forum, I agree that Greyjoy and Lannister are at a disadvantage when it comes to their ability to expand, but I do not think that this makes the game imballanced. I have played 2 games with 4 players, and in both games I played house baratheon (it was chosen randomly). I one one of the games, because the Stark player was not smart. But in the second game, the stark player was able to sail his ships all the way down to shipbreaker bay, and he eventually ended up winning the game. 

If some of you out there would say it was because of my incompetence, I did not make any mistake, as far as I can tell. I used Salladhor Saan to his fullest capacity, but during the next round stark used eddard stark and killed both of my ships in the narrow sea, leaving only one in East Summer Sea (I had marched my army from dragonstone down to starfall, and later yronwood). After an unlucky clash of kings card, I was 4th on the king's court influence track, and so I could not muster any mor ships, untill after stark had taken dragon stone for good. I do not see what was wrong with my tactics. I think that this is a useful strategy for the stark player, and I think it could be accomplished more often that not. This also left me crippled, and I did not get above 2 castles 'till round 6.

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