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signoftheserpent

Black Crusade

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You might wait longer than 24 hours for a reply over the holiday weekend.  A lot of people (least in the U.S.) might not be checking their forums regularly.

Personally, I've not gotten my own copy of BC as yet.  Will I use things from it for DH?  Probably.  Everything feeds into everything else in a relative way that typically does not require a lot of work to fit into the place you want to use it.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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Well for my own part I can say that I don't have very much use of Black Crusade but that's because I roll with the Ordo Xenos mostly. If I do a campaign focusing on the Ordo Malleus I will certainly however make use of Black Crusade to create main enemies. But right now Deathwatch and Rogue Trader have better material for crossover for me.

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I'm sure some people will eventually, but to be honest I don't really need to. There's plenty of material in DH alone. The BC corebook doesn't really have much of interest. I think a few of the supplements will be of more use, but the core is mostly about making BC characters, which doesn't really help for DH.

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signoftheserpent said:

I don't know how compatible the rules sets are as I gather there are some differences, but does anyone get any use out of Black Crusade as a Chaos sourcebook for DH. Is it better than the stuff in Disciples etc?

In regard to what DotdG did (providing background on cults and groups and daemonic incursions) BC had nothing on DotdG. If you want to play DH, buy DotdG! Do it, do it now, DO IT TWICE! gran_risa.gif  Trust me, it is a worthy purchase.

Using BC stuff in DH:
While the mutation list is nice, I do not thinks that I will throw at my pc immediately. But perhaps later, if THEY start to mutate. Ruleswise, I will copy the way the PRIMITIVE trait is handled (and will thereby re-do primtive armour so that that every primitive armour will be AP:1 to AP:4 (max). 

Otherwise, their is nothing "background wise" that springs to my mind immediately... and I do not know of any DH book where I would claim that it had become obsolete due to BC in regard to background&fluff.

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 BC is vastly superior in term of rules. New combat rules in particular make the game much more varied and enjoyable (everybody is much mobile now, the guy who dual-wields melee weapons doesn't get more attacks than a single enemy has Reactions, and - gasp! - Full Auto weapons aren't the only reasonable choice outside of melee). New equipment rules are also much better, they've been especially kind to ranged weapons and right now, no single weapon type is universally, unanimously better than the others. Skills getting streamlined and Talents getting various adjustments is nice, but not as helpful for DH, because it takes a crapton of work to incorporate all changes into advancement tables. Overall, it's definitely worth getting the book for all the rules updates.

As an antagonist book, BC is... meh. You get a really cool list of Mutations and Dark Gods' blessings, new and expanded rules for Daemon Weapons, some new psychic powers... and that's about it. The book focuses on Heretics living in the Vortex and doesn't really go into details on sowing the seeds of corruption from within the Empire, and as the advertised "build a nemezis for the characters from other games", it doesn't really offer much more than you could have figured out yourself. In this aspect, both Disciples and Creatures Anathema eat BC for lunch.

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Morangias said:

the guy who dual-wields melee weapons doesn't get more attacks than a single enemy has Reactions, and - gasp! - Full Auto weapons aren't the only reasonable choice outside of melee). New equipment rules are also much better, they've been especially kind to ranged weapons and right now, no single weapon type is universally, unanimously better than the others.

 

Er, what?

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signoftheserpent said:

Morangias said:

 

the guy who dual-wields melee weapons doesn't get more attacks than a single enemy has Reactions, and - gasp! - Full Auto weapons aren't the only reasonable choice outside of melee). New equipment rules are also much better, they've been especially kind to ranged weapons and right now, no single weapon type is universally, unanimously better than the others.

 

 

Er, what?

DH rules: Lightning Attack + offhand = 4 attacks vs max 3 reactions for anyone who's not a Temple Assassin.

BC rules: Max 2 attacks vs max 2 reactions.

Full-Auto in BC starts netting you better average results than Semi-Auto at about 40 BS, as it now penalizes your BS roll. In DH, Full Auto gave you a better chance of hitting and the chance to score more hits.

Equipment:

DH: Las < SP < Bolt. Plasma sucked too bad to ever be used before Ascension, where it still didn't compare that well to supposedly inferior Bolt weapons. Melta was a specialist weapon, either awesome or useless.

BC: Las can compete on equal terms with SP, and is probably the best choice for equipping your hordes of mooks - yes, now it even gets a shot against tough creatures such as Orks (Astartes still mostly laugh at them, though). SP is somewhat better for specialists who can make good use of autofire (which, again, requires higher BS if you hope to hit reliably), but loses to Las weapons in terms of ammo and maintenance costs. On the side of expensive stuff, Plasma now deals much more damage than Bolt, but the new Overheat rules mean you want it in Best Craftsmanship badly. Bolt is still the awesome all-round weapon with the best range of special ammo. Melta is still the specialist anti-armor weapon.

All in all, each category of weapons is good for something. Sure, your awesome badass warlord won't bother with lasguns, but his horde of marauders won't curse the day when he decided to equip them with lasguns rather than autoguns.

That's pretty much what I mean.

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Balance in games is a real bugbear of mine. I really hate discovering things like this as I'm not interested in house rules.

And it's Las pistols all round with the 2 characters at hand. So they're in for a tough time of it.

How hard can it be to balance weapons?

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Morangias said:

signoftheserpent said:

 

Morangias said:

 

the guy who dual-wields melee weapons doesn't get more attacks than a single enemy has Reactions, and - gasp! - Full Auto weapons aren't the only reasonable choice outside of melee). New equipment rules are also much better, they've been especially kind to ranged weapons and right now, no single weapon type is universally, unanimously better than the others.

 

 

Er, what?

 

 

DH rules: Lightning Attack + offhand = 4 attacks vs max 3 reactions for anyone who's not a Temple Assassin.

BC rules: Max 2 attacks vs max 2 reactions.

I think yo are mistaken here.  The attack provided by the by "Multi-Hit-Talents" are "based-on-degree of success". See BC p.238.  A character with a WS: of 40 or 50 is able to score three or more hits against a single target in melee. Not taking multiple-limb mutations into account. On the other hands, Dodging is able to avoid multiple "hits" in one skill test as well. Cannot remind parry right now. But the 2-2-ratio you mentioned above is definitively not what it is "the Max".

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Gregorius21778 said:

Morangias said:

 

signoftheserpent said:

 

Morangias said:

 

the guy who dual-wields melee weapons doesn't get more attacks than a single enemy has Reactions, and - gasp! - Full Auto weapons aren't the only reasonable choice outside of melee). New equipment rules are also much better, they've been especially kind to ranged weapons and right now, no single weapon type is universally, unanimously better than the others.

 

 

Er, what?

 

 

DH rules: Lightning Attack + offhand = 4 attacks vs max 3 reactions for anyone who's not a Temple Assassin.

BC rules: Max 2 attacks vs max 2 reactions.

 

 

I think yo are mistaken here.  The attack provided by the by "Multi-Hit-Talents" are "based-on-degree of success". See BC p.238.  A character with a WS: of 40 or 50 is able to score three or more hits against a single target in melee. Not taking multiple-limb mutations into account. On the other hands, Dodging is able to avoid multiple "hits" in one skill test as well. Cannot remind parry right now. But the 2-2-ratio you mentioned above is definitively not what it is "the Max".

Attack != hit. Swift and Lightning Attacks in BC give you a chance of scoring extra hits, the same way semi- and full-auto did since DH. Likewise, you avoid them just as you avoid burst fire from distance weapons. This means against a melee dual wielder, a guy with Step Aside gets to dodge/parry both attacks, and has a chance to avoid all hits that they generate.

Compare DH, where melee dual wielding generated 4 attacks, and each of them (assuming they all hit, but then again the odds were reasonable for a dedicated melee combatant) required a separate Reaction to avoid, whereas the most seasoned fighters only had three of those (again, discarding Vindicare cheese). So, if you went one-on-one against a dual wielder, your only chance of not getting hit was if he kept failing at least one attack per round. One lucky streak and you're sadly out of luck.

With the new rules, it's much more random, and you can never be certain of getting out of the fight unscathed, but at least you can be confident that if you go toe to toe with a dual wielder, you aren't put at a disadvantage just because he chose to grab a pointed stick in his off-hand.

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Dodge only flat out negates an "Attack" if the attack does not cause multiple "hits". If an attack causes multiple "hits" the dodge negates a number of hits equal to the degrees of success the victim rolls.

There is still plenty of chances for a melee blender to cause way, WAY more hits than someone could potentially dodge.

 

 

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No, because Parry is now a skill, and you can train it to +30. Add to that a Defensive weapon that adds another +15 to that Parry roll, and chances are you will Parry more hits than the Attacker can generate.

Similarly, Full Auto fire is now at a -10 penalty to your BS. That's a change of -30 from DHs original +20 Bonus. With a high Dodge skill (+30) you stand a good chance of Dodging all hits even at Short range. You also get bonuses to your Dodge from positioning and Cover, which helps even more.

The Skill chapter is a real beauty, giving examples of the difficulties of the tests for each skill. For example, the Dodge skill reads:

DODGE (AGILITY)
Dodge is the ability to avoid blows in melee, duck incoming
fire or leap out of the way of falling debris. It combines
nimbleness of movement with trained reflexes and an
awareness of all kinds of danger. A character can use his
Dodge Skill to dodge either melee attacks or ranged attacks.
Dodging attacks is a made in response to a foe’s successful
attack. A success indicates that the attack has been avoided
and it does not hit the character. In the case of attacks which
cause multiple hits (such as automatic fi re) each Degree of
Success a character achieves on his Dodge Test discounts
one hit from the attack. Any excess hits not discounted by
dodging are then applied to the character as normal.
The GM may call on a player to use the Dodge Skill when:
• They are attacked in melee.
• They are attacked with a ranged weapon.
• They need to avoid hazards such as falling wreckage or leap from a collapsing bridge.

EXAMPLE MODIFIERS
+30 Character can easily detect the attack and has at least a round to avoid it.
+20 Character has full cover between him and an attack.
+10 Character has half cover between him and an attack.
+0 Character is avoiding an attack in the open. This is the default modifi er for Dodge in combat.
–10 Character is on loose ground, mud, or knee-deep water.
–20 Character is in waist-deep water.
–30 Character is unable to see the source of the attack.

Skill Use: Reaction.

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So far I have used BC to generate a team of custom-baddies to oppose my players once.  It was one of those special "freaky wierd **** happens here" scenes (inside the Blind Tesseract) and I ran a modified version of Gregorius' auction scene.  Each character needed a "dark" parallel and I did not want to use the lazy photocopy their character sheets method (since it reduces a fight down to who can roll better) so I sat down and made dark and horrible versions of each character at roughly the same points value as each one using BC.  Definately lots of fun and surprises from this, and lots of potential future storylines can be spun thanks to events in this scene.

Other than that, I usually use templates or free-form the NPC.  Important and potentially long-term NPCs sometimes get built as if they are PCs.

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@Darth Smeg

Yeah, true, on paper it looks that way, but in the case of my group, we have been using the BC combat rules for awhile now and the attackers usually seem to still get more hits through. Thats purely anecdotal though so, who knows if that will be the same for everyone. YMMV.

To be honest the game designer in me says that Parry and Dodge should be capped on the number of attacks they can negat based on WS and Ag bonus respectively. Weapons have a hit cap based on RoF and Melee attacks are capped based on WS bonus. I'd have to actually sit down and work through it but off the top of my head it makes sense.

 

 

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Both Dodge and Parry are naturally capped, as rolling any value can only generate so many degrees of success. No need to double-cap it.

And yeah, you need at least as much on your modified Evasion roll as the attacker has on his modified attack roll if you want to have a chance of negating all hits. But that's just a statement about the relevance of skill on both sides. Plus, both Evasion Skills can be boosted sky-high much easier than any attack roll, so your chances of evading it all are reasonable if you focus enough on it.

Compare DH melee rules, where two maxed out combatants can enter a complete stalemate quite easily... unless one of them grabs a second sword, in which case the other one will eat one attack per round with absolutely no chance of evasion.

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