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Loophole Master

Mickey ARV - with stats?!

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Yamashira just posted over at BGG a picture of his recently aquired Mickey ARV from Dust Models. It's a very cool model, but as so many cool units from Dust Models, like the Barking Dog, I didn't expect it to come with a stat card. Very surprisingly, it seems I was wrong:

pic1159695_lg.jpg

Lo and behold, it comes with a stat card! Has something changed in the agreement between FFG and Dust Studios? Cause I was under the impression only FFG could publish stat cards. Does that mean future original units will also come statted? And what about their older units?

Now on to the stats themselves, they are VERY intriguing, since they feature a bunch of new skills.

- Crane: I expect this to be similar to the Dozer Blade skill, which means the unit is able to destroy tank traps on contact.

- Engineer Vehicle: I guess this has to do with structures. Could it possibly be able to tear down walls?

- Recovery Vehicle: Sounds like the mechanic's ability to repair other tanks.

- And as for the crane itself, it's a VERY powerful, difficult to use weapon against walkers.

Now, when and where will we learn what these new skills mean? Is that something that will soon appear in the FFG line, or could Dust Models release more rules themselves?

PS: Interestingly, the card has no AP cost...

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According to themselves,  Studio Dust was/is discussing the inclusion of stat-cards with FFG. They wanted to include cards with the unofficial non-FFG-branded models that SD sell directly but weren't allowed since there, according to the source at SD, was a risk that they would be considered/mistaken for official game cards.

I am thrilled that they do seem to include the cards in the un-official collector items, as I think it raises their value and actually allows us to play with them anyway should we want to. My personal guess is that the lack of AP:s on the card is a way to reflect that the card/unit isn't official. While that's one way of solving it, I'd much prefer they just has the AP and put some text or a symbol in the footer instead, signalling that the unit isn't sanctioned by FFG.

Is there a site somewhere that can be dedicated to deal and keep tabs over the unofficial units, or should I set one up? I've seen a couple but none include the OTTO for example, not to mention the Crane...

 

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If they're going to suggest a crane is an excellent anti-tank weapon, and add non-existent new skills to the cards, I'd prefer they didn't try to come up with points, and still put on a note that the unit is unofficial.

That has got to be one of the silliest ideas I've seen for a recovery vehicle as a combat vehicle.

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Major Mishap said:

 I think the Jagdluthers stats a re pretty good.  Using  the Konnigsluther and Ludwig as starting points as the Jagdluther is midway between then, I reckon the Jagdluther to be worth 67pts.

With the points listed being from before the tournament point structure, the 10 points would translate to 95-105 points under the new system.  Harder to damage with Armor 6, twice as many damage points, and a better gun make that value closer to appropriate.  It isn't as good as the Konigsluther at 95 points, so that's high, but 67 would be too low for all of the benefits compared to the Ludwig.

The Konigsluther is far better against infantry and very light vehicles, but only marginally superior  to the Jagdluther against vehicles from Armor 3 on up.  I'd expect something between 80-90 points instead.

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 I've got and played with the Jagdluther several times and it is definately not as good as a pair of Ludwigs.  The 68pts is mathamatically derived from the other pair of tanks and in my experience with it would seem fair, more playtesting will tell though.  Those extra hits and defence of the Konnigsluther make a huge difference  its survivability over the Jagdluther.

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Major Mishap said:

 I've got and played with the Jagdluther several times and it is definately not as good as a pair of Ludwigs.  The 68pts is mathamatically derived from the other pair of tanks and in my experience with it would seem fair, more playtesting will tell though.  Those extra hits and defence of the Konnigsluther make a huge difference  its survivability over the Jagdluther.

Not as good for some things, but much more survivable, which has to tell in the point structure as well.  You have the same number of damage points tied to Armor 6 instead of Armor 4.  You have an improved anti-armor capability, but a reduced anti-infantry capability.

A Ludwig doing a Sustained Attack will kill another four damage walker with fair consistency, but the Jagdluther will do the same to a five wound walker.  We don't have those yet, but the capability has to be considered when assigning a point value.  Two Sustained Attacks from the Jagdluther will average killing any of the current Allied heavy walkers, but the Ludwig would need three.  That's significant, because it also means a pair of Ludwigs would not average a kill in less time than the Jadgluther.  If a command squad can reactivate the Jagdluther, it can get the kill in one turn.  The pair of Ludwigs could do the same, but would require more activations, and also require both to have maneuvered for the shot, instead of the single Jagdluther.

A Jagdluther will need to be played differently than a pair of Ludwigs, but it can be worthwhile at over 80 points with the unofficial stats given if played to its strengths.

I am curious at the math used to derive the 67-68 point value you've decided to use.  Would you be willing to post that?

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All theory Gimp and I've been doing the same, but try putting it into practice :).  Whoever goes first is crucial in this sort of analysis and if you have expensive models then the chance is that you will have less units giving the maneuvre advantage to the Allies, and Bazooka Joe is a royal pain.   Imagine the Allies getting to go last and hitting it with 2 40pt tanks and then going first, Jagd may take one out but it will go kaput.  My Jadluther gets blown to pieces, unless for some reason you can force enemy onto it one at a time, scenario, terrain, time restraint, tactics etc. 

I've lost me bit of paper now but it was something along the lines of +/- 5pts for the extra dice of gun damage.  +/- 5pts for extra pt of armour.  I think it was 3pts per wound  and then add or deduct a bit for anti-infantry effect.  Total random points allocation I know but you have to start somehere but it seemd to work in this case.

The best judge of a units worth after playing a few games with it is to decide at what points would you always take a unit and at what points you never would.  I'd never take a Jagdluther for 85pts, I always would if it were 60pts.  To me, its value lies somewhere inbetween.

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I disagree.  Analysis and evaluation of a unit should be done based on its capabilities within the system.  Initiative is simply something the controlling player has to adapt to as part of their tactical plan.

When someone adds variables based on tabletop tactics to the point valueof a unit, the values only validity is tied solely to their tactical considerations.  Other players learning to use the unit in different ways can then find a unit significantly underpriced because of how someone else saw it being used.  Likewise, someone quite adept at handling the unit could assign a value that doesn't work for the majority of players who do not play in a similar gaming environment.

Any point value should be based on the unit's specific capabilites, both on offense and defense.  Those capabilities need to be compared both to existing units, and to other unit possibilities within the game.  Tactics to use the unit effectively then become the province of anyone trying to use the unit.  The points might feel high to some players while they learn to use the unit to its full capabilties, but that is far preferrable to having a unit significantly underpriced because the people assigning values missed something.

You feel experience tells you the Jagdluther is appropriately priced at 67-68 points.  My experience tells me I could get good value from the unit at over 80 points, and give me a significant advantage at 70 points..  I don't have to have played specifically with the Jagdluther to believe that, as I've been wargaming for over thirty years with similar concepts in over 150 different miniatures games.

Those games I've played that base point values on individual unit capabilities within their game system are normally far more accurate in assigning point values than those that decide to tweak values based on the playtest results they've found for their units.

Any time a unit is developed for a game that has capabilities that make it cost a lot, anyone using that unit has to play smart enough to understand they are putting a lot of eggs in one basket, and they have to play that unit smart to make up for it.  If the game point values makes it appealing to use the big unit through a reduced value, they are automatically building an advantage into that unit for players that learn to use it well quickly. 

That's one of the core reasons many games suffer from power creep, as they have to keep adding underpriced units to offset the advantages they've aded to the game with discounts that never should have existed on previous units.

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I have noticed the unofficial models at Dust-models and have found them to be interesting.  To me, the inclusion of a stat card of any kind for these models will eventually cause confusion. 

My question is... will these unofficial models be official for Dust Warfare which is due out in the very near future.

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 You feel experience tells you the Jagdluther is appropriately priced at 67-68 points. My experience tells me I could get good value from the unit at over 80 points, and give me a significant advantage at 70 points.. I don't have to have played specifically with the Jagdluther to believe that, as I've been wargaming for over thirty years with similar concepts in over 150 different miniatures games.

And I've been playing for 38 years, have been playtester for games company's for the last 10 and most importantly I have been playing with the Jagdluther at various points costs to try and find a good price for it.  You don't agree, fair enough - move on.

 

 

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Major Mishap,  Relax. I was not attacking you, your experience, nor anything else. My experiences are different than yours, so what I value will obviously be different than what you value. Diversity of experience and opinion is part of what I come to a forum for, as it makes me reevaluate mine. We're talking about a 15% variance in what we see as acceptable point values on a unit that does not yet exist within DUST officially, so the world won't end if we disagree. It's obvious neither of is would think the ~100 points suggested by the old school 10 points would be acceptable.

 

I tend to be willing to take a heavier valuation allowance for units, because if I can find ways to be happy with a unit at a higher cost, I win whatever the final value. I much prefer being happy a unit costs what I expected, or ecstatic it costs less, to being disappointed with a unit I wind up feeling is overpriced. I tend to push that concept when posting.

Loophole Master, I tend to agree with you on bio-blurbs. Bio-blurbs will always be suspect on the internet, as there is no way to verify them, and there are plenty of people willing to embellish their accomplishments when nobody will know. I wouldn't have used the idea as much as I did, with generalities on time and games played, except that I was having a rough time due to pain (the Gimp part of me is all too real), and was feeling too fried to come up with a more functional argument. I regret having used a meaningless tool to try and make a point, but such is life. We live on, and hopefully learn from mistakes.

Likewise, I tend to overlook the, 'I'm playing, but you're only theorizing,' argument, as some players' theorizing is stronger than other players' gaming. I've known people with years of gaming experience that have a hard time theorizing their way out of a wet papaer bag, and people who are as adept at playing games in their heads as some of the finer chess masters I've seen. I know people with lots of gaming experience whose opinions on tactics, playtesting, or anything else game related I consider worthless as other than a source of humor.

I take bio and experience blurbs as simply something to read if I feel like it, and judge opinions based on what is actually written. Anyone who does more is being foolish.
 

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hahahahaha you 2 old farts are gonna end up in a reitrement home one day arguing with each other.

Gimp - the reason it has 10 was an AP point system b4 the first "release" point system was released. Olivier said it himself in the BGG forums at one point. So the 100 points would not add up with the new points system.

I also believe it to be the same with the points.  I have 60 for the very reason that the points for the walkers have been modified to this kinda. While with the new points I see mine as wrong and I believe between 70-80 points, but I also believe with these new monstrosities being released the Jadgluther should be reduced to armor value 5. It's not how efficience the walker is but what is its armor value, how many wounds, what it's weapons danage can do, and what abilities it has. Since it is armor 6 then it shoud be atleast 60+, since it has 8 wounds and thats 2 over its armor value I would say, 5-10 points extra, it doesn't have any abilities so that would remain 0, and because it weapons are pretty painful for both vehicle and infantry I would say another 5-10 points extra. Thats how I look at the Jagdluther. My arguement to this is also because the Fireball is so cheap and it can be painful to try to kill and it has light-medium range. Also the Jagdluther is only slightly more effective as the Ludwig.

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arkangl said:

hahahahaha you 2 old farts are gonna end up in a reitrement home one day arguing with each other.

Gimp - the reason it has 10 was an AP point system b4 the first "release" point system was released. Olivier said it himself in the BGG forums at one point. So the 100 points would not add up with the new points system.

I knew the 10 points was from the old system.  When I mentioned ~100 points, it was because the new system runs fairly close to a factor of x10 when you round off the new point values.  There are a couple of variances due to expanded capability for things like the Command Squads, Observers and Snipers, but otherwise, all of the medium walkers would round to 40 points (10x4) except for the Loth, most of the infantry with old points rounds to 20 (10x2), etc...  That would give a base value for the Jagdluther of 95-105 points with an old rating of 10 points.  That was a meaningless number, too, but it was workable within the system.

Major Mishap has a workable number with 67-68 (both were noted, so I don't know which would be a typo).  I would be willing to run with 80.  I haven't heard of anybody thinking 95-105 would be appropriate.  We all get to play with home brewed numbers until the possible release of the model for DUST.

As for arguing in a retirement home, so long as it was an interesting debate, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  I'm retired already, so that puts me half way there.  Any good debate gives people a chance to consider their views, and decide if they should change them, or keep them.  I play for the socialization, and for the mental challenge, so debate is good excercise.

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 Hey, we got our answer, in this announcement from Dust-Models:

D48-CARDS-Announcement.jpg

Dust Studio is very proud to announce that all our model kits from the Deluxe Edition range and the Dust-48 range are now provided with their own gaming stat card for Dust Tactics!

All the rules to play our models kits can be found in Dust Tactics' expansions, mostly Operation Cerberus and on Dust Model website, on each model kit's page. There you will find the description of the unique skills these models can have. All other skills and game rules are within Dust Tactics' booklets.

As many of these new models introduce very new game rules, the cards don't have an Army Point Cost attached: therefore these models are not “legal” to play in Dust Tactics tournaments. But you can surely enjoy them when playing with your friends!

All these new stat cards can be ordered from our web store at www.dust-models.com. If you bought some of our earlier models kits, you'll certainly want them. To keep things simple we've made a pack with all the cards from our earlier models and priced it at 3.99 US$. Quite a bargain!

Happy gaming,

Dust Studio Team.

 

And here are all the cards!

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Awesome!  Now all we need are some army point costs... If the DT community can actually agree upon AP costs, I might finally be interested in a purchase of one of these guys.

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felkor said:

Awesome!  Now all we need are some army point costs... If the DT community can actually agree upon AP costs, I might finally be interested in a purchase of one of these guys.

Just glance at a couple of the previous posts and you'll notice we'll never agree upon the AP costs. The best you can hope for is a nice sampling of opinions so you can pick and chose the cost that suits you.

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Looks like I was right about a bunch of stuff like the Jagdluther being armor 5 and the recoiless rifles being limited. Everyone who opposed me can eat it. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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