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Sex and the single Space marine

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Guest Not In Sample

Did we get moderated?

I didn't think we had moderators!

Oh well. I don't think this bit was offensive:-

+++++1. Accept that in the light of moral and ethical values of our world, you're playing a complete monster, distance yourself from your character and appreciate the unique opportunity to examine many controversial topics in a safe, pretend environment.

 2. Gloss over the idiosyncrasies of the pretend world and have the power trip of your life as a Catholic Space Nazi in Power Armor.+++++

I would submit that most of the material goes for option 2. The work never really engages with these themes:- it only presents them to titillate the audience.

I mean, the Inquisition regularly tortures people, but this is only done to show how hardcore they are, not to start a debate on the ethics of enhanced interrogation. And we generally don't get lovingly rendered scenes of torture enacted by 'Good Guy' inquisitors anyway.

This is not to say you can't do 1. Indeed, 1 is probably the nobler endeavour. But I would argue that it is not the intended use of the material, which is, as Dan Abnett puts it, Shooty-Death-Kill-In-Space.

Indeed, I would say that 1 is in fact deconstruction of the material. If you wish to deconstruct the myth of the Space Marine a focus on the down sides of the Space Marine lifestyle is to be expected. But this is not, on the whole, what the stories are interested in doing.

Basically, I don't read GW books to be challenged, and I am not. Marine stories are my comfort food.

 

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Morangias said:


@Charmander:

 


I feel like this is going nowhere. I've already given answers to all the questions you keep asking.

Well, maybe I missed it somewhere in the chaff of the multiple pages so forgive me. The remaining questions I have (as the rest of the debate is simply opinion inferred from various texts, really) is from your perspective, what is it about pride and ego that make you a superior warrior? I get your point that mindless robots don't make the best warriors (though you could argue adherance to the codex is largely mindless- albeit you've got a huge array of choices, it's still adherance to previous training and lack of improvisation), but I really don't see where the ego makes you a superior warrior, especially if it feeds an archenemy.  Strip them of fear, strip them of lust for sex, strip them of sense of selfe, leave only in them loyalty to the emperor so unending that they have no other desires but to fight and die for his glory. 

And I still don't understand the violence argument you make- even if the Marines were created to crush resistance as quickly as possible, why use death as a method in the first place since it feeds your arch enemy?  The emperor remembers the dark age of technology, so why not use the 'good parts'?  As for not messing with the iron men, the problem with iron men was they had sentience and turned on their masters.  Cut out the sentience and you have something that answers only to programming.  This goes against established canon, but again that established cannon is there because it's 'cool' and it 'fits', not likely to prove or disprove the sex drive in Marines.


Siranui said:

WittyDroog said:

 

And yet them having sex is more attractive? Personally I find it more interesting that they are beings who are devoted entirely to sacrificing themselves on the altar of battle because of radical ideologies and conceits. Space Marines pride themselves on rising above the primitive emotions of man, from fear to lust (naturally hate is very advantageous for war). I don't think that Marines eschewing sex somehow makes them less cool. If I was still 13 maybe...

 

 

This.

Yes, but that's part of it though, isn't it?  With gelding there is no eschewing, there is no emotion there, it just 'is' and is a complete non-issue.  If you allow it, and say it's rare, then it's a potential issue.  That's all.

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See, every time we have an argument about how Marines should be,  it can become roleplaying material. Everyone chooses a Marine that matches their conception (chaste vs. lusty, soldier vs. warrior, precision vs. brute force, British accent vs. American accent) and attempts to prove on the field of (a tabletop roleplaying game) battle that their way is best.

Unless of course you think no one would choose to play a eunuch Space Marine if given the option not to, in which case why are you trying to force it on people?

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AluminiumWolf said:

 

Unless of course you think no one would choose to play a eunuch Space Marine if given the option not to,

 

 

 

But I think you're the only one who actually thinks that.

 

EDIT: Never mind, your double negatives confused me into thinking that no one would play a eunuch marine if given the choice to.

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Thanks for the discussion.

 

Ok.  Here’s what I’m going to go with (my chapter examples come from what I understand from the RPG, I have nothing from the TT to draw from, so I could be off base):


1.  Generally, Astartes don’t have an interest in having sex because it’s been pretty well conditioned out of them.  But, they are usually capable of doing so (they have the parts and the parts work).


2. Marines are as likely to fall/become corrupt because of lust as they are of any other human failing (pride, jealousy, saxophone solos, etc.) which means, due to all their training and indoctrination, it’s not bloody likely (and far less likely than one would encounter among regular humanity).


3. Different chapters have different views.  Some are so wholly disinterested in sex that it’s a complete non-issue (those marines may be chem-gelded or even have their sexual organs removed…Iron Hands), some treat sexuality like it’s a vile temptation and source of weakness or a disgusting remnant of their short, mortal, life (Black Templars), and some treat it like a great idea for R&R (Space Wolves).  Of course, different individuals may have different views in their respective chapters (at least so far as differing views are permitted among the Astartes…a Black Templar who likes wenching it up is dumb and isn’t going to be long for his chapter, but a Black Templar who secretly yearns to requite the selfless love of one of the women who serve on his ship, but knows they are both damned if he does, makes for some good pathos).


4. Due to the heavy gene therapy and physiological alterations they’ve undergone, they can’t father children anymore.


5. As eugenics are a part of my Imperium, removing the ubermensch from the gene pool is a cardinal sin.  Candidates for the Astartes are not immediately removed from the breeding population.  How this goes about again depends on the chapter.  Some get sent to the nearest schola progenium to serve as a breeding stud to a specially chosen female in a highly ritualzed mating ceremony (Imperial Fists), some become sperm donors at a highly controlled Imperial clinic (where their deposits are only given out to the most fit women of the Empire…Ultramarines), and some are given a month’s leave before they begin to get their implants and told to spread their seed as far and wide as they can (Space Wolves).  It bears noting that I don’t like the idea of the process to become a space marine beginning when the future marines are pre-pubescent…how does a pre-pubescent boy prove himself a mighty warrior?  I push the time-table back to the late teens/early twenties.

 

As an amusing side note to this discussion:  according to Wikipedia, Astarte was a goddess and where the Greeks got Aphrodite.  Her domains?  Fertility, sexuality, and war. 

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Charmander said:

Morangias said:


@Charmander:

 

I feel like this is going nowhere. I've already given answers to all the questions you keep asking.

 

 

Well, maybe I missed it somewhere in the chaff of the multiple pages so forgive me. The remaining questions I have (as the rest of the debate is simply opinion inferred from various texts, really) is from your perspective, what is it about pride and ego that make you a superior warrior? I get your point that mindless robots don't make the best warriors (though you could argue adherance to the codex is largely mindless- albeit you've got a huge array of choices, it's still adherance to previous training and lack of improvisation), but I really don't see where the ego makes you a superior warrior, especially if it feeds an archenemy.  Strip them of fear, strip them of lust for sex, strip them of sense of selfe, leave only in them loyalty to the emperor so unending that they have no other desires but to fight and die for his glory. 

And I still don't understand the violence argument you make- even if the Marines were created to crush resistance as quickly as possible, why use death as a method in the first place since it feeds your arch enemy?  The emperor remembers the dark age of technology, so why not use the 'good parts'?  As for not messing with the iron men, the problem with iron men was they had sentience and turned on their masters.  Cut out the sentience and you have something that answers only to programming.  This goes against established canon, but again that established cannon is there because it's 'cool' and it 'fits', not likely to prove or disprove the sex drive in Marines.

Okay, now we're talking. In a loose order:

Ego - Ego is basically what differentiates a sentient being from a drone, and I think we agree drones weren't really an option, because a) ingenuity is a good trait when your tactics are all predicated on being seriously outnumbered, even if your training and augmentations make each Space Marine worth a dozen men, and b) considering the whole Crusade was made under the banner of human superiority, and the Astartes were the poster children of this campaign, it'd really look bad if they were too alien for your average joe's taste, and being mindless drones almost certainly qualifies.

Pride - first and foremost, it's an unavoidable byproduct of the ego, especially if the owner of said ego is praised galaxy-wide as the best of the best, and a descendant of the almighty Emperor himself. Second, pride isn't unanimously harmful in the context of Ruinous Powers' influence. Being proud of humanity and of your Battle Brethren doesn't pull you closer to the Dark Gods, and may in fact be a bulwark against them. It's when the petty pride in your own personal achievements starts overshadowing this other, more selfless pride, is when your soul is at risk. And for all we know, the Astartes do try to excise the petty hubris. Obedience, devotion, strengthening the bonds of camaraderie, it's all meant to make you proud of being, say, an Ultramarine, and leave you less time for being proud of being Sergeant Flavius of the Ultramarines. Your own accomplishments should be cherished only inasmuch as they bring more glory to your Chapter, without it they're just meaningless idolatry. The comic Damnation Crusade suggests the Black Templars go as far as to instantly execute any Battle Brother found guilty of putting his own glory before that of a Chapter. I don't think other chapters are as hardcore - the Black Templars are Catholic Space Nazis par excellence, after all - but the stigma is pretty clear in other sources as well.

Also, pride can be a great tool for manipulating your supersoldiers, especially when you've conditioned them to be proud of their loyalty and obedience. And it can easily be channeled into aggression, something a good soldier needs.

Adherence to Codex - first, not all Chapters pay the Codex any heed at all, and of those that do, only Ultramarines and their successors exhibit a truly slavish adherence to it's tenets. Second, we don't really know what's in the Codex, so it's hard to judge how much wiggle room it leaves - some quotes suggest it's more in the vein of Sun Tzu's Art of War than an anal-retentive combat manual that regulates how hard you're supposed to squeeze the trigger. Third, having a set of established tactics doesn't imply mindlessness unless you employ them in a truly mindless way, and since the dumbest of Astartes tend to be on the intellectual level that's considered a solid average for mortals, it's safe to assume most Chapters will drop the codex tactics the moment they prove disastrous. The Ultramarines may not do so, but their adherence to the codex is religious first and foremost, and the Imperium is all about dying for your religious beliefs, so it's not really a matter of mindlessness.

Why not nonlethal force? - If the Crusade was only about uniting humanity, probably the Emprah could have settled on nonlethal armaments and positive reinforcement of subdued populations. In fact, Horus Heresy books suggest the Crusade forces were pretty big on positive reinforcement and made it a point to ask politely before they started shooting. But the Emperor knew there were demons and xenos out there, as well as people devoted to Chaos, and for those, he never really considered an option different than genocide. Hence, quick, overwhelmingly brutal assaults were the best compromise.

Hope that clarifies my point.

Oh, and regarding "gelding" vs choice of celibacy. I put "gelding" in quotes because I believe what makes Astartes functionally impotent is actually a bit more complex than a simple operation/chem therapy. The way I always imagined it, it's a mixture of hormonal readjustment and mental conditioning, a crucial part of shaping a man into a space marine, that doesn't so much remove the sex drive as reroute it into aggression, along with other "expendable" instinctual/hormonal responses. That's how the Astartes know no fear, how they maintain their constant battle-readiness and why they seem so little concerned about things other than being Emprah's loyal weapons. It's still not much of a choice, but some Chapters do let you make a choice of whether you want to join at all or not. As for others, well, many things can be argued about the guy who designed the whole thing, but that he was never a big fan of anyone but himself making choices is pretty apparent.

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Guest Not In Sample

+++++Ok.  Here’s what I’m going to go with+++++

I'd be happy with that. Options for everyone.

+++++It bears noting that I don’t like the idea of the process to become a space marine beginning when the future marines are pre-pubescent…how does a pre-pubescent boy prove himself a mighty warrior?  I push the time-table back to the late teens/early twenties.+++++

Yeah. If I had my druthers, every Marine would have to have been somebody before they were a Marine. Just for the extra story potential. Old friends, old quests, old enemies.

And because it is cool that every Marine could be king by his own hand if left in his home enviroment.

And even TPTB sometimes forgets/retcons that bit of canon. These are pics of Marine candidates from the Damnation Crusade comic:-

WH40K01_05.jpg

WH40K01_06.jpg

WH40K01_07.jpg

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I think we did get Modded. Who'd have thought it!

 

Charmander said:

Yes, but that's part of it though, isn't it?  With gelding there is no eschewing, there is no emotion there, it just 'is' and is a complete non-issue.  If you allow it, and say it's rare, then it's a potential issue.  That's all.

With gelding it is simple tragedy that 'ultimate man' cannot operate as a man. Whereas with sterility but theoretical ability to perform you can play it several ways: Either that the Astartes is willingly celibate through willpower*, or that they aren't interested through chemical treatments and indoctrination. I personally prefer it being a 'non-issue' via somewhat artificial means, because that is what gels with the game universe as I have always read and understood it. It fits the experimental observations.

I'm sticking to Asartes being sterile. Genetically modified freaks being able to sire children just doesn't work, and would turn the Chapters into fully self-replicating incestuous communities. Plus: It would have been done by now. ONE character somewhere would have been the child of an Asartes, sired illegitimately, and hidden away blah blah. But there's nothing. And it's not like GW isn't normally afraid to scrape the barrel when it comes to shamefully lame backstories.

 

As to pride: It's a warrior thing. Find me an elite warrior who is not -to some degree- prideful of his skills. It may be a quiet internal pride, but it's there. And it's what fuels their complete self-confidence. You don't want a warrior thinking 'what if I'm NOT good enough to kill them all before they fill me with bullets?'. You want warriors (specifically assault troops, which is what marines are) who will believe that they can defeat their foes, because they are *better*.

And the Codex: It's *can't* be an inflexible manual on tactics and grand strategy, because inflexible tactics and strategy *do not work*. Any book on tactics which comes down to a complete list of 'in case of A, do B' cannot possibly take into account every combination of events, so also needs to teach its students how to think for themselves and be flexible. I see it as a combination of works: Plenty of hard-core procedures and drills of how to do everything from clean your boots, to breaching a door, storming a pill-box, patrol formations and standard procedures for working out arty timetables and logistical chains through to more general works on tactics and strategy, such as Clauswitz et al.

 

*Which works out just fine for the Catholic Church, so I'm sure it's worked out absolutely fine for 10,000 years for the Astartes as well...  Absolutely no marine-on-marine action would *ever* take place. No sir-ree!

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Regarding the idea that Space Marines should come from older experienced fighters, isn't that where the original version of Space Marines came from: prisoners and others so dangerous they were sentenced to death - but death only after falling in battle as a mind-scrubbed and gene-modded Space Marine. All this other crap we have nowadays is retcon.

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Guest Not In Sample

+++++because that is what gels with the game universe as I have always read and understood it. It fits the experimental observations.+++++

Sure but you have to accept that nowhere, nowhere does it actually say that.

If Marines were supposed to be the eunuch soldiers of the Imperium of the Emperor of Mankind it would surely have been mentioned at least once.

And I'm not imagining that Marines being neutered is not exactly going to be a selling point for a lot of their fans am I?

 +++++And the Codex: It's *can't* be an inflexible manual on tactics and grand strategy, because inflexible tactics and strategy *do not work*.+++++

I agree from a broadly realistic sense, but 40k is not a realistic place. Space Marines go in to battle in brightly coloured armour armed with chainsaw swords. If someone thinks it is entertaining that Marines are always working from an uber-specific playbook I don't see that as a big problem. Especially since the book doesn't actually exist, so the player will simply be pulling references out of their ass (Ah! Dug in Autocannons with armour support! This is obviously time for Assaults 3:16 verses XVIII to XXI! ATTACK PATTERN DELTA! GO NOW!)

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Q: Regarding the idea that Space Marines should come from older experienced fighters, isn't that where the original version of Space Marines came from: prisoners and others so dangerous they were sentenced to death - but death only after falling in battle as a mind-scrubbed and gene-modded Space Marine. All this other crap we have nowadays is retcon.

 

Thank god for the glory of retcon, if that was the case.

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AluminiumWolf said:

+++++because that is what gels with the game universe as I have always read and understood it. It fits the experimental observations.+++++

Sure but you have to accept that nowhere, nowhere does it actually say that.

If Marines were supposed to be the eunuch soldiers of the Imperium of the Emperor of Mankind it would surely have been mentioned at least once.

Nowhere does it state that Marines do have sex lives, so we can't just put direct quotes against direct quotes.

Thus, we have two options left: either we ask the GW to make an official statement (which, based on the fact the game's around for over 30 years and we're still having this conversation, it's safe to assume we're not ever going to get), or we deduce the reality of the setting from what we know about the setting.

In this context, what do you think is more possible:

A) Marines have no sex lives, as implied by their monastic lifestyles and no mentions of Marines sex lives within the vast base of literature we have describing them, it's just that for some reason they haven't stated that outright, or

B) Marines do have sex lives, despite them having 15 minutes free time per day, them never being seen doing anything even vaguely sexual, and no character ever saying or doing anything that would hint Marines do have sex lives?

AluminiumWolf said:

And I'm not imagining that Marines being neutered is not exactly going to be a selling point for a lot of their fans am I?

Yes, you are imagining it. Your theory is founded on personal conjecture and anecdotal evidence. Many people here can provide their own anecdotal evidence proving the issue of Marines' dongs has absolutely no influence on their enjoyment of the game or willingness to buy Astartes-related products.

Add to this GW being absolutely silent on the issue (find me a quote from a GW employee talking about how Marines' sexuality affects their sales, and I'll post a YouTube video of myself eating my favorite hat), and it's down to what you think vs what other people think, and no opinion is better than others because, again, we have no evidence to discuss. Hence, unless you want to keep this baseless back-and-forth going on, I suggest we all leave the marketing side out of this.

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@ the commisar comment : Gaunt had relations with the daughter of a hive governor in the novel Necropolis.

Beginining of my rambling: :)

There have also been references in novels and a few other fluff pieces where its stated that marine's have had most of the hormonal urges required for reproduction expunged through both severe indoctrination and the process of having all new fiddly bits put inside their new post human bodies. Specifically Ragnar's in the novel Grey Hunter, and the Herey Era Dark Angel in ...I think it was called Eye of Terror but I may be wrong. Basically dark angel runs into a daemonette, quirks an eyebrow when he finds her attractive, and then proceeds to rip her head off.

Needless to say Grey Knights most certainly do not have an interest in carnal pleasures, or pretty much anything else but slaying daemons and remaining faithful to the emperor. Black Templars, Iron hands, and various other chapters are also similar in temperament. Space wolves seem to only resort to 'wenching' when engaging in another movie viking past time known as getting drunk, and even then it's not seen to escalate beyond playful pawing.

In other words, disregarding supernatural influences any seeming interests in reproductive acts could easily be considered play acting in order to fit their part and or other means of humanizing them in front of a potential population. The Space wolves at least seem to have no problems in hamming up other images people have of them.

As for slaneeshi influence. Well, most marines that succumb to it seem to seek out ever increasing sensation, and challenges even as the latest thing that they're indulging in becomes just another pointless endeavour that brings them no satisfaction. So I guess you could have some freaky hentai marine complete with zippers and a crop. However it's more likely they'll be (or at least end up as) some overly handsome pretty boy obsessed with finding interesting ways to slowly hack people apart with his elegant blades or a creature half insane with his inability to feel anything except for the faint whispers of people that he's killed with a chainspork.

And in the end it's, 'there is only war' not "there is only 2/3 of the internets and some chainsaw swords"

EDIT: Forgot to mention that orkoid lifeforms also retain a set of working plumbing even though they reproduce through spores. Though it seems to mostly be used for comedic effect and 'marking' territory.

 

 

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Guest Not In Sample

+++++Yes, you are imagining it. Your theory is founded on personal conjecture and anecdotal evidence.+++++

Sure, but as ever I am willing to present my options to the people and see if they like it.

I am confident they will. Can you say the same of your ideas? If you think if given the option most people will choose to play a neutered Marine, what is the problem?

+++++I suggest we all leave the marketing side out of this.+++++

You can't leave the marketting side out of this. Whether people will like it drives all of GWs creative decisions. They didn't just retcon the Necrons for ***** and giggles - they did it because they calculated that someone, presumably the Necron buying public, would like it more that way.

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Incidentally, I find it mildy ironic that Morangias first post to these forum sayeth:-

+++++Does the player of the character in question enjoy the story potential of being chemically castrated and trying to get rid of the effect, or does he try to get rid of the effect because it spoils his fun of playing the character in question?

In the latter case, perhaps it would be best to allow the player a re-roll on the Sanctioning table. I know the idea is for psykers to come out scarred out of the process, but if the player doesn't find the particular scarring a fun thing to play, there's little point in forcing him to.+++++

I agree.

 

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AluminiumWolf said:

+++++Yes, you are imagining it. Your theory is founded on personal conjecture and anecdotal evidence.+++++

Sure, but as ever I am willing to present my options to the people and see if they like it.

I am confident they will. Can you say the same of your ideas? If you think if given the option most people will choose to play a neutered Marine, what is the problem?

Considering I have people agreeing with me in this thread, it's not really a matter of confidence. But for what I'm talking about, people's opinions are largely irrelevant, unless these people happen to provide official content for 40k.

Again, I'm not here to discuss anyone's feelings on the matter, because as much as I respect many posters on this board, I don't play with any of them, so their feelings have no bearing on my games.

What I'm interested in is discussing what makes sense for the internal coherence of the game world, an issue you're constantly avoiding.

 

AluminiumWolf said:

+++++I suggest we all leave the marketing side out of this.+++++

You can't leave the marketting side out of this. Whether people will like it drives all of GWs creative decisions. They didn't just retcon the Necrons for ***** and giggles - they did it because they calculated that someone, presumably the Necron buying public, would like it more that way.

I'll be happy to discuss marketing, if you provide me with any factual data - since it's you basing your theory on GW's marketing policies, the burden of proof is clearly on you. Except each time I ask for proof, you seem to omit it and repeat your initial statement like a mantra.

Again, what you feel on the matter is irrelevant unless you show me any definite proof that your theory is anything more than wishful thinking.

 

AluminiumWolf said:

Incidentally, I find it mildy ironic that Morangias first post to these forum sayeth:-

+++++Does the player of the character in question enjoy the story potential of being chemically castrated and trying to get rid of the effect, or does he try to get rid of the effect because it spoils his fun of playing the character in question?

In the latter case, perhaps it would be best to allow the player a re-roll on the Sanctioning table. I know the idea is for psykers to come out scarred out of the process, but if the player doesn't find the particular scarring a fun thing to play, there's little point in forcing him to.+++++

I agree.

Digging up my old posts? Looks like I hit a nerve... But I'll humor you this last time.

You might notice that I was talking about a completely different case in a completely different system. There are many things that set DH worlds apart from DW, too many to discuss here without massively derailing the thread, but one crucial thing is: DH is about playing humans, not genetically modified, heavily brainwashed supersoldiers.

Having this in mind, I fully stand by my opinion from back then. If I run DH and someone complains how randomly rolling Chem-Gelding one a random table ruins his character concept, I will allow him to reroll it. If I run DW and a player complains about his Space Marine not being able to get any action, I will politely ask him to either deal with it or leave my group, because I sure as all hell don't plan to ever introduce any hot Astartes action in my campaigns, and  the rest of the group is perfectly fine with how we run it.

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+++++What I'm interested in is discussing what makes sense for the internal coherence of the game world, an issue you're constantly avoiding.+++++

Because I am vastly more interested in the real reasons things are the way they are. 40k is not a real place. It is a make believe land made up for the sole purpose of entertaining people. It is epically more worthwhile to discuss how elements of the setting entertain its consumers.

40k is also uber commercial, like McDonalds, which makes how the fans will like ideas even more the only thing worth discussing.

--

Marines in my campaign will be expected to show personality beyond having HATE and KILL tatooed on their knuckles. If a player has a problem with this, I will politely ask them to deal with it or leave the game.

+++++Considering I have people agreeing with me in this thread, it's not really a matter of confidence.+++++

Well, there are people agreeing with me. The OP for a start. Like I say, I don't have any problem with you playing a neutered Space Marine, but surely you wouldn't be so selfish as to try to force the option on to players who don't want it.

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AluminiumWolf,

I can kind of understand where you're coming from, and Astartes are certainly capable of a full spectrum of emotions and "hobbies" (insofar as they can be called "hobbies" rather than moments of contemplative meditation allowed by their strict training schedule), but I'm fully with Morangias when it comes to such things as recreational sex.

Whereas some Astartes create beautiful works of poetry regaling the actions of Chapter heroes (or in the Space Wolves' case, they have skjalds with a rich oratory history), and many may spend a great deal of time contemplating morality or philosophy (most are scholar-soldiers, in almost every sense of the term), I can't see recreational sex acts fitting neatly into the puzzle of an Astartes doing something that is still a productive use of their time, and for future generations of Astartes to appreciate or use as moments of brotherly bonding in some way, shape, or form.

It's not all "HATE" and "KILL", but it is still very regimented for the wider Astartes population. The few fleeting moments they have as legitimate "downtime" in their training or warfighting schedule that aren't filled with Chapter-mandated ceremonies does not seem conducive to something as irrelevant, in the grander scheme of things, as recreational sex acts.

It's not about the Marines being neutered or castrated (they likely aren't, physically), it's about them having the mental discipline and focus to, no matter what their leisure status is, still contribute something meaningful to the Chapter and Imperium.

Even seemingly unproductive Space Wolf feasts, what with their raucous boasting, scuffling, and imbibing, serve a purpose for the Chapter in terms of esprit de corps.

Could you say the same thing about Adeptus Astartes running about trying to get their jollies on the local populace after a particularly taxing campaign?

I can't see how the two are even remotely reconcilable with one another.

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AluminiumWolf said:

+++++What I'm interested in is discussing what makes sense for the internal coherence of the game world, an issue you're constantly avoiding.+++++

Because I am vastly more interested in the real reasons things are the way they are. 40k is not a real place. It is a make believe land made up for the sole purpose of entertaining people. It is epically more worthwhile to discuss how elements of the setting entertain its consumers.

40k is also uber commercial, like McDonalds, which makes how the fans will like ideas even more the only thing worth discussing.

--

Marines in my campaign will be expected to show personality beyond having HATE and KILL tatooed on their knuckles. If a player has a problem with this, I will politely ask them to deal with it or leave the game.

+++++Considering I have people agreeing with me in this thread, it's not really a matter of confidence.+++++

Well, there are people agreeing with me. The OP for a start. Like I say, I don't have any problem with you playing a neutered Space Marine, but surely you wouldn't be so selfish as to try to force the option on to players who don't want it.

AluminiumWolf said:

+++++What I'm interested in is discussing what makes sense for the internal coherence of the game world, an issue you're constantly avoiding.+++++

Because I am vastly more interested in the real reasons things are the way they are.

Great. So... you have any info that might shed light on those real reasons, as applicable to this discussion?

AluminiumWolf said:

40k is not a real place. It is a make believe land made up for the sole purpose of entertaining people. It is epically more worthwhile to discuss how elements of the setting entertain its consumers.

40k is also uber commercial, like McDonalds, which makes how the fans will like ideas even more the only thing worth discussing.

The thing with like/dislike discussions is, they're pretty boring. I can't argue with you that you (as in you, personally) can't enjoy your Space Marines if they're not macho sexmachines, and you can't argue with me that I find the idea of marines having sex lives infantile and distasteful. At this point, we can either agree to disagree or keep repeating ourselves until one side gets bored and leaves - a tactic that you seem to be no stranger to, might I add.

I, for one, prefer discussions that thrive on actual arguments - you know, the ones that can be checked at the source, countered, refuted or agreed to. Again, it's a kind of discussion that you will never have on this topic here if you stick to your principle of only ascribing value to the only one side of the issue we have no way to get any real info on.

AluminiumWolf said:

--

Marines in my campaign will be expected to show personality beyond having HATE and KILL tatooed on their knuckles. If a player has a problem with this, I will politely ask them to deal with it or leave the game.

Why hello there, False Dichotomy, my old friend. We seem to be seeing each other quite often around this place - do you live here or what?

Prove to me that a Space Marine can't have an interesting personality without having sexual needs. Hint: you can't, but you're still welcome to try.

AluminiumWolf said:

+++++Considering I have people agreeing with me in this thread, it's not really a matter of confidence.+++++

Well, there are people agreeing with me. The OP for a start. Like I say, I don't have any problem with you playing a neutered Space Marine, but surely you wouldn't be so selfish as to try to force the option on to players who don't want it.

Even if I wanted to, I couldn't really affect that beyond my playing group, could I? Clearly you're aware of that fact, as evidenced by the fact that you're posting on this board (my assumption being, anyone not understanding that nobody outside of their play group can affect their playing experience is more likely to hit himself on the head with a keyboard repeatedly than to produce coherent English using it). So what is your point exactly?

It seems pretty inconsistent to claim that you're only interested in non-falsifiable personal opinions and then attack people having different opinions and demand that they acknowledge yours.

You want my opinion, here it is: I think Space Marines having sex lives is infantile, distasteful, breaks the verisimilitude of the fictional world the game takes place in, and detracts from the game's actual content without adding anything meaningful.

Here, that's what I think. Furthermore, that's what my whole play group thinks, a conclusion we've reached unanimously the day my friend announced that he'll be running our first Deathwatch game. Clearly you wouldn't be so selfish as to try to force your opinion on us?

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+++++It seems pretty inconsistent to claim that you're only interested in non-falsifiable personal opinions and then attack people having different opinions and demand that they acknowledge yours.+++++

Heavens no. I want to find out what your opinion is, then tell you why it is wrong.

Entirely consistent. :0)

 

+++++I think Space Marines having sex lives is infantile+++++

Well, like I say, Marines are a way for me to reconnect with my childhood. I am always trying to channel the fourteen year who loved this stuff when talking about Marines. Childish is therefore not a disadvantage as far as I am concerned.

+++++distasteful+++++

Potentially a plus in the grim darkness of the far future (which see, eugenics and battery farming of humans). Plus there are many ways to play it. While one could revel in juvenalia properly aping my early games of dungeons and dragons, one could also merely be content knowing that your Marine is capable of having sex should it ever come up in the expectation that it won't. Or maybe one could even try for a tasteful homosexual relationship between Marines.

+++++breaks the verisimilitude of the fictional world the game takes place in+++++

Remembering that at no point does the fluff actually say Marines don't have intercourse. On the scale of GW retcons, this would be right up there with adding Sternguard veterans - just something they haven't mentioned before.

+++++and detracts from the game's actual content without adding anything meaningful.+++++

Obviously I disagree. Allowing one to steal from plots that involve sexual relationships, King Arthur or The Illiad say, is an enormous bonus the game. It provides something for Marines to want and argue over that doesn't involve killing things.

Anyway, that is more like it.

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AluminiumWolf said:

+++++It seems pretty inconsistent to claim that you're only interested in non-falsifiable personal opinions and then attack people having different opinions and demand that they acknowledge yours.+++++

Heavens no. I want to find out what your opinion is, then tell you why it is wrong.

Entirely consistent. :0)

You're aware that there are no wrong opinions on the matters of having fun?

Also, exactly the kind of boring back and forth discussion I was talking about. 

AluminiumWolf said:

Remembering that at no point does the fluff actually say Marines don't have intercourse. On the scale of GW retcons, this would be right up there with adding Sternguard veterans - just something they haven't mentioned before.

I can see that you're honest when you claim you don't care about verisimilitude. If you did care, you would realize some things don't need to be spelled out in clear text when a myriad other things in the world hints at them.

The world of Space Marines would have looked much different if they were capable of engaging in recreational sex, and yet different if the concept of courtly love held any significance for them, as you posit for your campaign. The dissimilarities between the setting such changes would create in the game world and the described game setting would be big enough, that in my opinion, you don't really play Deathwatch anymore.

 

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Morangias said:

I can see that you're honest when you claim you don't care about verisimilitude. If you did care, you would realize some things don't need to be spelled out in clear text when a myriad other things in the world hints at them.

Indeed, though absence of evidence doesn't generally indicate evidence of absence, given the amount of background material we have out there and the plethora of hints that Adeptus Astartes disregard or simply do not have sexual urges, absence of evidence is pretty much giving us the null result we need to say it doesn't happen.

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Well it took awhile to read thorugh the hold topic. Not once did I read my personal opinion though (and thats why i write it here)

Space marines are 7 feet tall, they live for hundreds of years and are on top of that scholar/monks. Some of them are certainly singleminded and neurotic, but none of them are plain dumb. When the rest of the empire has degenerated into worshipping the emperor as a god, most of the astartes still retains the original secular view the emperor himself thaught.

They certainly got an intellectual capacity and understanding of the universe compared to a regular man likened to a adults experience compared to a child.

It is here my thesis comes in that is consistent with most of the fluff.

Space marines are actually grownups in an universum where the bulk of humanity are not allowed to grow beyond childish simplemindedness.

They se normal people as either children they are sworn to protect or weak inqonsequential wretches that is barely worth caring about.

In much of the fluff the dialogue between space marines about humans most often is between a space marine that cant stand ordinary peoples weakness and a more gentle space marine telling him that they have sworn to protect humanity.

For a space marine to copulate with an ordinary girl he is 10 times older, smarter and wiser must be like performing a pedhofilic act.

A lot of  Space marines would have had sexual practice prior to being transformed into space marines but I think they rember it in the same way adults remember the platonic love-affairs they had as children. Maybe a cute memory to be fond of but hardly sexually arousing anymore.  

I could think of interest being created in rare times with the almost supernatural females like inquisitors that also lives for hundreds of years and being openminded.

But the absolute majority of love is between space marines.

Yes, space marines are mostly gays.

It is hinted in the fluff with brothers with a special relationsship, one example is in the first horus heresy books, forget which one it was. In a part it describes two luna wolves that seems to be twin souls, always fighting side by side and always prefering each others company.

How long spacemarines go with each other, be it long moments of eyecontact, hugging and spending spare time with each other or actually some sexual activity I cant tell but there is no doubt about being love in the air at that goes beyond ordinary brotherhood in the fluff.

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