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Sex and the single Space marine

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Captain Ventris said:

 

AluminiumWolf said:

Marines need all the personality they can get.

 

...aaaand suddenly the entire thought-process behind the creation of this thread makes sense.

 

 

Look at it this way:-

+++++The Colonel stepped up to Trooper Marbo.
Marbo's eyes were empty again, like they
always were when he wasn't stalking through
the jungle or carving his name in some
enemy's internal organs. Inwardly the Colonel
sighed- there was something wrong with this
boy; blood and death had warped him to the
point where he could only be normal with a
blade in his hand.

Once again the Colonel pronounced the well-
rehearsed words. "For valour in battle and
service to the Emperor of unbounded courage
you are hereby awarded the Star of Terra bear
it with pride that you may inspire others to
worthy endeavor in the service of Man". The
Colonel completed the dedication in a single
breath before pinning the ribbon onto Marbo's
chest.

This one was for wiping out a whole squad
of aliens, killing their commander and
capturing their command post single-handed.

He leaned loser to Marbo and asked"You
want me to look after it for you son? Like
the rest?"

Marbo nodded solemnly.

"Alright son, you can go". The words had
barely left the Colonel's lips before Sly
Marbo had plunged back into the jungle as
smoothly as a fish slipping into a stream.+++++

Do you really want to play in a game with someone playing Sly Marbo?

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Morangias said:

 

As for the heresy and half of Astartes turning traitor, most of them did so to obey their Primarchs. That's what happens when you send middlemen to do the job for you. It was a failure of Emprah's HR management skills first and foremost, but in a way, it's a testament to how unquestionably obedient they were towards their immediate superiors. By contrast, rigging the Astartes to experience sexual urges would be a crucial design error, way below his intelligence.

 

 

Yes, but half of the Primarchs, the ones the Emperor created to be 'perfect' were the ones that initially turned.  That's my point, his kids, the ones he was most excited about, were the ones with a huge gaping flaw.  For whatever reason (well, for the story is the most likely reason if you ask me) he made mistakes, oversights, etc., with his chosen ones, why would it be any different with the Astartes?

And by the way, as you can see here, leaving a sex drive inside of a soldier isn't necesarily seen as a "mistake" by everyone, which means the Emperor could've very well seen this as not a mistake.  We're burrowing into the psyche of a fictional character that's been written about by a dozen plus authors and trying to make sense of it- I doubt it'll ever make sense to everyone or satisfy everyone.

Morangias said:

 

Surely he read the Illiad and knew how many problems were caused by Achilles' sexual urges. And his goal was to have an army of many millions, each soldier equal to Achilles in combat prowess - surely he wanted to eliminate as many ego- and libido-related issues as possible. Then, these supersoldiers were supposed to carry his banner across the stars and unite all humankind under his rule - certainly, he could have foreseen how ****** the women of newly conquered worlds wasn't good for the morale and cohesiveness of his rising empire, and such occurences were bound to happen with thousands of soldiers in warzones.

 

 

The Marines clearly have Ego issues.  If you were really going to eliminate these things you'd make robots that followed programming (as in non-AI based robots).  Sex drive is not the only thing that drives men to do bad things, far from it- things like **** aren't just associated with sexual gratification, but with power and anger.

Morangias said:

 

 

Then, his entire plan for he galaxy was secretly aimed at suppressing the things that made Chaos Gods stronger, and it so happens one of the big four is personally interested in people who like sex too much - presumably he understood statistics well enough to deduce at least a part of his main force would be susceptible to such temptations.

 

 

Okay, there is a problem when you bring Chaos into the picture.  First, allowing marines to have sex isn't going to increase the power base of Slaanesh any more than giving them nerve endings, ear drums, and taste buds.  The Noise Marines use sonic weapons (which I hate, BTW) not giant orgasm cannons.  Fulgrum turned to Chaos not because he was a rapist or liked to screw everything that walked, but because of his pride and vanity (and with some help from a chaos blade and a good friend telling him everything was cool).

Also, the Emperor built killing machines, which plays right into the hands of Khorne- if he was such a super smart guy why didn't he create more non-leathal weapons that could dominate and subdue populations without death, and thus without reinforcing one of the major Chaos gods?  Well, because it doesn't make as good of a story, and the characters aren't put in that catch 22 of 'feeding the army you're killing' as a result.

Morangias said:

 

 

Now, this man is faced with a choice. Either he deals with the sexuality of his supersoldiers the same all other armies tried to cope with it - suppressing it through indoctrination and channeling it into aggression through training, or he could use his super-genius powers to eliminate the issue entirely through a mixture of gene-tampering, neuro-conditioning and hypno-indoctrination. Now, what option do you think makes more sense?

 

 

Of all of man's vices, he really selected THAT one individually to remove by chemicals and knives?

I don't think the authors really cared when they wrote up the backstory, which leaves it very much open ended.  Even if he DID make a choice back then to go all wee-wee choppin', there is nothing to indicate that individual chapters wouldn't have changed this practice quite a bit.  The Codex Astartes was written after he was dead, and split the Legions up in ways that the Emperor never intended- at least mentioned intending.

The only thing fluff wise I've seen that would prohibit a Marine from having sex or desires for sex is that he's pretty busy most of the time- when he's not cleaning his weapons he's killing people with them, meditating, or practicing.  Honestly, if they were completely without sex drive, then as others have said, Chem Geld would be a universal trait, but it's not.  As a GM you can pass it out if that's your vision of the fluff.

P.S. Quotation system sucks...still.

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Marines display pettiness, jealousy, boorishness, impatience, vengeful drives and overconfidence quite often to an amplified (childish) degree. Why not lust too? Because the wargame fluff is intended for young boys where these feelings would be 'weird' since it's not really in the sights of the target audience. However, since most of that play the RPG are probably older (just a guess), we can obviously accept more 'mature' Space Marines that have more 'adult' flavored failings in the above categories, and it doesn't seem at all out of place to put lust in there too.

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Morangias said:

 

Because seriously, when you're designing perfectly obedient supersoldiers that are meant to operate as monastic orders, leaving the sex drive is a recipe for disaster. The Emperor has made many dubious choices in his career, but I really hope he wasn't that stupid.

 

 

I completely agree. It's just asking for trouble. Very little (none, I'd argue) in the way of 'good choices' are based on sex drive. Looking back in my life, most of the most stupid choices I've had were made because I was hot for someone!

Aside from the emotional distractions of women or fellow 'buddies'* influencing decisions at the sharp end, as many of our own societies have figured out: As soon as a man can reproduce, he'll start to bend the rules and try to ensure his offspring are advantaged in life, to the detriment of society. That's why the Chinese used senior civil servants who lacked manbits. If Marines could breed, the Ultramarines would be inbred by now, and every Marine society would be rife with corruption and favouritism, due to blood ties.

The fall to Choas is another hefty clue that Marines don't 'do' that. The fall of the EC didn't involve any conventional physical seduction, nor is there ANY whiff of that in their flavour text that I've seen, despite the fact that it is one of the key and trademark things that Slaanesh 'does'. Despite all logic, there is no mention of halls of concubines or rampant marine-on-marine action in the Emperor's Children fluff.

Hmm... and if the 20 Primarchs all represented core emotions, where's the one that was the Emperor's sex drive? Or was that one of the silent two the Wolves wiped out?

***

Wolf: Emotionless? Marines aren't emotionless, as seen by the fact that books about them are worth writing! Removing sex does not remove all emotion. If you think that's the case, you must read some very questionable fiction.

If anything; it makes them *more*, not less. So much human folly has been built on sexual desire, that Marines who are immune to that massive flaw in our psyche are even more super-human. It's facile to demand that to be a real hero, a character has to have a fully loaded and primed sexual organ. Additionally, it's a 'tragedy' in the hero's character. Perfect heroes who are an 'idea guy' are very tedious and boring. Superman is dull because he can do anything. The classic legends of a thousand years ago get dull when they start bleating on about how perfect and virile the hero is. Real heroes have a tragic flaw. And what better a tragic flaw for a super-human, macho-man who is the peak of physical perfection, idolised by all? No working todger, making him the ironic antithesis on a man. The entire reason for mankind's existence is absent from the hero. Brilliant.

 

And if it's the players who get all icky at the thought of playing a character who can't go home and get it on with wenches at the end of a hard day's killing; then they need to be pushed outside their roleplay comfort envelope a bit.

 

 

*Because history and the Catholic Church teaches us that when you lock up a bunch of guys together, in a very close, disciplined environment, away from women, a lot of guy-on-guy stuff goes on.

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Charmander said:

 

 

 

Morangias said:

 

As for the heresy and half of Astartes turning traitor, most of them did so to obey their Primarchs. That's what happens when you send middlemen to do the job for you. It was a failure of Emprah's HR management skills first and foremost, but in a way, it's a testament to how unquestionably obedient they were towards their immediate superiors. By contrast, rigging the Astartes to experience sexual urges would be a crucial design error, way below his intelligence.

 

 

Yes, but half of the Primarchs, the ones the Emperor created to be 'perfect' were the ones that initially turned.  That's my point, his kids, the ones he was most excited about, were the ones with a huge gaping flaw.  For whatever reason (well, for the story is the most likely reason if you ask me) he made mistakes, oversights, etc., with his chosen ones, why would it be any different with the Astartes?

And by the way, as you can see here, leaving a sex drive inside of a soldier isn't necesarily seen as a "mistake" by everyone, which means the Emperor could've very well seen this as not a mistake.  We're burrowing into the psyche of a fictional character that's been written about by a dozen plus authors and trying to make sense of it- I doubt it'll ever make sense to everyone or satisfy everyone.

It's not the goal here to reach a consensus, methinks. But humor me with this: what does the Emperor gain by leaving Marines sexually functional? For all I know, he was a control freak with a master plan, so just saying he didn't consider the issue doesn't fly by me.

 

Charmander said:

 

Morangias said:

 

Surely he read the Illiad and knew how many problems were caused by Achilles' sexual urges. And his goal was to have an army of many millions, each soldier equal to Achilles in combat prowess - surely he wanted to eliminate as many ego- and libido-related issues as possible. Then, these supersoldiers were supposed to carry his banner across the stars and unite all humankind under his rule - certainly, he could have foreseen how ****** the women of newly conquered worlds wasn't good for the morale and cohesiveness of his rising empire, and such occurences were bound to happen with thousands of soldiers in warzones.

 

 

The Marines clearly have Ego issues.  If you were really going to eliminate these things you'd make robots that followed programming (as in non-AI based robots).  Sex drive is not the only thing that drives men to do bad things, far from it- things like **** aren't just associated with sexual gratification, but with power and anger.

 

Clearly he didn't want drones, because they don't really make good soldiers - you need intelligence and adaptability on the battlefield. So he couldn't just excise the ego. Plus, pride seems like a big motivational factor for the Astartes, I'm assuming it's by design. On the other hand, I've never seen lust being used to motivate the Space Marines, so presumably it's by design as well.

**** can be motivated by things other than lust, but it's usually lust that drives armies to ****** the beaten populace. And, if you excise the sexual drive entirely, **** doesn't really become a vehicle of gratification, even if it's initially driven by non-sexual needs.

Charmander said:

Morangias said:

 

 

 

Then, his entire plan for he galaxy was secretly aimed at suppressing the things that made Chaos Gods stronger, and it so happens one of the big four is personally interested in people who like sex too much - presumably he understood statistics well enough to deduce at least a part of his main force would be susceptible to such temptations.

 

 

Okay, there is a problem when you bring Chaos into the picture.  First, allowing marines to have sex isn't going to increase the power base of Slaanesh any more than giving them nerve endings, ear drums, and taste buds.  The Noise Marines use sonic weapons (which I hate, BTW) not giant orgasm cannons.  Fulgrum turned to Chaos not because he was a rapist or liked to screw everything that walked, but because of his pride and vanity (and with some help from a chaos blade and a good friend telling him everything was cool).

Also, the Emperor built killing machines, which plays right into the hands of Khorne- if he was such a super smart guy why didn't he create more non-leathal weapons that could dominate and subdue populations without death, and thus without reinforcing one of the major Chaos gods?  Well, because it doesn't make as good of a story, and the characters aren't put in that catch 22 of 'feeding the army you're killing' as a result.

 

As for Slaanesh, sure, lust isn't the only way to fall into his grasp, but it's a way nonetheless, and removing one whole venue of temptation makes sense, especially since it serves no other useful purpose in his asexually reproduced supersoldiers.

As for Khorne, the whole idea of Space Marines was to avoid prolonged wars. These guys could get entire worlds under their heel in weeks, if not days, effectively greatly diminishing the blood toll and preventing many gorefests. They were the best the Emperor could have done about not feeding Khorne too much without sacrificing firepower or resorting to using mindless drones.

Charmander said:

 

Morangias said:

 

 

Now, this man is faced with a choice. Either he deals with the sexuality of his supersoldiers the same all other armies tried to cope with it - suppressing it through indoctrination and channeling it into aggression through training, or he could use his super-genius powers to eliminate the issue entirely through a mixture of gene-tampering, neuro-conditioning and hypno-indoctrination. Now, what option do you think makes more sense?

 

 

Of all of man's vices, he really selected THAT one individually to remove by chemicals and knives?

 

Compared to others, it's quite easy to remove, and again, removing it can only have positive effects on the performance of the troops.

Charmander said:

I don't think the authors really cared when they wrote up the backstory, which leaves it very much open ended.  Even if he DID make a choice back then to go all wee-wee choppin', there is nothing to indicate that individual chapters wouldn't have changed this practice quite a bit.  The Codex Astartes was written after he was dead, and split the Legions up in ways that the Emperor never intended- at least mentioned intending.

 

The only thing fluff wise I've seen that would prohibit a Marine from having sex or desires for sex is that he's pretty busy most of the time- when he's not cleaning his weapons he's killing people with them, meditating, or practicing.  Honestly, if they were completely without sex drive, then as others have said, Chem Geld would be a universal trait, but it's not.  As a GM you can pass it out if that's your vision of the fluff.

P.S. Quotation system sucks...still.

 

 

If you want to play a rules-lawyer, then sure, they don't have Chem Geld. Another rules lawyer could argue that if Chem Geld was supposed to factor in Space Marines' sexuality (as opposed to it being listed as a talent humans can have for whatever reason), it would have been included as an option in one of the many advancement tables. But that's beside the point. It being, it really doesn't make sense for genetically enhanced supersoldiers organized into quasi-monastic knightly orders and having on average a whopping 15 minutes of free time per day to feel sexual urges, assuming there was any way to remedy the issue permanently (and I believe it was well within the capabilities of their creator to remove that).

 

@HappyDaze

How is the possibility of Marines having sex leading to more mature roleplaying than, say, bonds of camaraderie, conflicting duties, or tough choices made on the battlefield?

Mature... you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

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Mommy my plastic toys are humping one another!!!!

:)

Anyway, there as always been obvious Warrior-brother relations like happened in all warriror cast society (samurai and the mongols) too I bet you! Look at Horus and the Empire.

 

 

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 It seems I screwed up the formatting. I swear, whomever designed this engine was listening to Trollolol all the time.

Anyway, Siranui hit the nail on the head. Being asexual, the Space Marines are ironically removed from the very species they're supposed to protect. Leave their libido on and they're just Duke Nukem clones in power armour.

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Like I say, no one is saying that you can't play an asexual Space Marine. I just don't want to. I don't think it is cool or interesting, and I'd have more fun with a Duke Nukem clone in powered armour.

That is fair right?

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@Morangias

I did not say that having sex makes Space Marines mature. I'm sorry if you read my posts as such. I am instead saying that what we have of the Space Marines shows them as fairly childish - perhaps to make them more attractive to prepubescent boys - and as a result the issue of their sexuality isn't covered. Since many will try to add maturity to their Space Marines by making them act less childish, I don't think that addressing their sexuality is out of place. IOW, they are not made 'mature' simply by having their sexuality addressed, but if they are going to be presented in a more 'mature' manner then it is acceptable to consider their sexuality.

Arguments that state that the Emperor was too smart/cool/whatever to allow them sex-urges fall apart when you consider that he left in all manner of social and psychological faults. Besides, if the Primarchs were to reflect the Emperor, and the Astartes were to reflect the Primarchs, then I find it dubious that a human male (and the Emperor is, at his core a fallible human male) would want his image based on a band of uber-castrati. The Emperor has an ego too after all.

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AluminiumWolf said:

Like I say, no one is saying that you can't play an asexual Space Marine. I just don't want to. I don't think it is cool or interesting, and I'd have more fun with a Duke Nukem clone in powered armour.

That is fair right?

As long as you understand that playing Space Marines as Duke Nukem is pretty much the antithesis of everything we know about them, and that your needs would be better suited by a different game, I'm fine with that.

 

@HappyDaze

It was hard to understand it any other way when that was exactly what you said. And what exactly do you find childish about the Space Marines? Because seriously, "childish" is about the last word that comes to my mind when I think of the Astartes.

As for them having other flaws, I've covered that in the long post that got screwed up in the formatting. Basically, you can't make a good warrior if you try to suppress his ego, but excising just his libido is strictly beneficial, especially when said warriors were initially supposed to be a completely mobile strike force detached from any stationed power base.

You know how Alexander the Great kept losing his impetus the more he conquered? That's because more and more of his soldiers wanted to settle down rather than keep on fighting. This was partially due to those soldiers falling in love with local women and wanting to start families. The Emperor must have known how that works, and he specifically designed the Astartes as the vanguard of his crusade that never stops moving forward. To have them lusting after women would be a crucial design error that would have eventually ground the Crusades to a halt.

And, while it eventually failed, he did design their training regimen in a way that was supposed to diminish most character flaws. When he gave the command to the Primarchs, none of them being first trained by him, is when it really started breaking apart because the Legions started developing quirks mirroring the behavior of their respective gene-fathers.

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Again you seem to presume that they could excise just his libido or even want to. Saying that Alexander the great stopped his conquest because his soldiers wanted to bang the locals is an out and out fabrication at best, cherry picking a factor at worst.


Further Once again, the Space Marines as they are represented today have next to zilch to do with the original plan for the great crusade and subsequent aftermath so basing any assumptions on current in universe setup is frankly false and is countered by things like the Ultramarines, the prototypical space marines who pretty much rule an entire sector as it's enlightened noble lords.

Further ultimately we know that the emperor, while swinging occasionalyl towards pragmatism and having occasional moments of questionable judgement was ultimately a benevolent ruler who wasnted the best for humanity including his Genesons. Maybe my own religious beliefs are coloring it but I cannot see a benevolent ruler wanting or needing his children to be celebate. He made them functionally incapable of fear and that works out fine if you conveniently overlook all the useful things the fear response does for us, but to any but the most jaded religious crusader or virgin sex is generally seen as a positive thing.

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Morangias said:

@HappyDaze

It was hard to understand it any other way when that was exactly what you said. And what exactly do you find childish about the Space Marines? Because seriously, "childish" is about the last word that comes to my mind when I think of the Astartes.

As for them having other flaws, I've covered that in the long post that got screwed up in the formatting. Basically, you can't make a good warrior if you try to suppress his ego, but excising just his libido is strictly beneficial, especially when said warriors were initially supposed to be a completely mobile strike force detached from any stationed power base.

You know how Alexander the Great kept losing his impetus the more he conquered? That's because more and more of his soldiers wanted to settle down rather than keep on fighting. This was partially due to those soldiers falling in love with local women and wanting to start families. The Emperor must have known how that works, and he specifically designed the Astartes as the vanguard of his crusade that never stops moving forward. To have them lusting after women would be a crucial design error that would have eventually ground the Crusades to a halt.

And, while it eventually failed, he did design their training regimen in a way that was supposed to diminish most character flaws. When he gave the command to the Primarchs, none of them being first trained by him, is when it really started breaking apart because the Legions started developing quirks mirroring the behavior of their respective gene-fathers.

Again, you seem to misinterpret my posts.

Space Marines are childish in their displayed immaturity. They lack emotional temperance, unless their key aspect is temperance and then it gets turned up to 11. This is why the source material is unlikely to explore sexuality among Space Marines - because it would get turned up to 11, and then you either have Slaneesh fare or just a bad medium for pornography. Since most players don't really want to play their characters with only one open channel (although the Demeanor rules could go this way among some groups), it's quite possible to have multiple complex aspects that are not displayed to childish levels and sexuality is one such possibility so long as the group is interested in that option.

The Alexander example you give doesn't really fit at all if for no other reason than the Space Marines often travelled with their entire city-states no further than orbit. They would have little need to settle-in as you describe.

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crisaron said:

Anyway, there as always been obvious Warrior-brother relations like happened in all warriror cast society (samurai and the mongols) too I bet you! Look at Horus and the Empire.

 

Yeah; and that's utterly absent in any and every bit of 40k fluff ever. Not a whiff of man-love; yet the authors are certainly comfortable to dip into romance between non-Astartes characters, even in a homosexual way. So the 'they don't write sex in because of the young audience' thing doesn't really hold any water. 

Like you say, though: If there was love-interest in Marines, it would predominantly be homosexual. 

 

Removing a man's libido really isn't that difficult, nor much of a dark art. I don't see the difficulty/impossibility of doing so to be a viable point.

Nor do I see much logic in the Emperor wanting his main battle tanks with legs to be able to breed because he's a nice guy. I'm a nice guy, but if I were designing genetically engineered supersoldiers, they wouldn't get a working wee-wee! Not least of all because I wouldn't want those potentially unpredicatable 'GM crops' to spread into the general population, because I wouldn't want to do more to build a self-sustaining, self-serving, incestuous Praetorian Guard tied together by blood loyalty to each other more than I, because it removes the issue of a certain kind of war crime from the table, and mostly because I don't want front line combat soldiers getting all gooey and doing stupid things because they were thinking with their d!ck!

 

Considering some of the utter canon-breaking fantastical character-backgrounds we've had stuffed down our throats for 20 years, not one character has ever been introduced as the child of an Astartes. Ever. Which for me totally blows out the window any chance that they can sire children.

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+++++main battle tanks with legs+++++

I'm telling you man - four guys, all playing Sly Marbo. Forever.

The Horror...

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lurkeroutthere said:

Again you seem to presume that they could excise just his libido or even want to. Saying that Alexander the great stopped his conquest because his soldiers wanted to bang the locals is an out and out fabrication at best, cherry picking a factor at worst.

What did you not understand about the word "partially"? And I didn't say he stopped, either, I said he was having more and more problems with army morale the longer he went.

Basically, even the best soldiers have needs outside of battling, and those needs tend to entail getting rich and getting laid. Good commanders throughout the ages tended to manage those needs, or even use them as an extra carrot to motivate their troops, but no commander was ever good enough to keep an army fighting indefinitely, because sooner or later the soldiers figure out they've gotten rich enough and fancy the "get laid" part more than they do "take another shot at getting myself killed part". That's why feudalism, a system that assumed some people are supposed to fight for the country whenever the commander demanded it, was eventually replaced by mercenary and professional fighting forces, who were much more manageable but also had a greater rotation.

Now, the Space Marines are unique in that they aren't motivated like either feudal or professional forces. They have their base needs taken care of, and they get their equipment, but they aren't really rewarded for their service in any way other than getting distinctions that are only important due to a social contract that they accept. And for all we know, it's not just beautiful theory - they still keep doing that despite all the damage the Horus Heresy did to their ethos. What this tells me is that those guys are seriously indoctrinated. And if they somehow completely disregard the number one reason for ever becoming a warrior (getting rich), it would be weird if they still had issues with the number two reason to ever become a warrior (getting laid) while still leading monastic lives that leave them with only 15 minutes a day for themselves - in such a setup, most of them would spend at least every other day's free time banging, and at this point it would make no sense that no such thing is ever mentioned.

lurkeroutthere said:


Further Once again, the Space Marines as they are represented today have next to zilch to do with the original plan for the great crusade and subsequent aftermath so basing any assumptions on current in universe setup is frankly false and is countered by things like the Ultramarines, the prototypical space marines who pretty much rule an entire sector as it's enlightened noble lords.

First, I'm basing my assumptions on the original plan - hence me using such terms as "highly mobile battle force" or "vanguard of the crusade", terms that hold true for only a handful of Chapters right now but were universally applicable towards Crusade era Legions.

Second, the Ultramarines only showcase another thing I already spoke of - namely, that with the introduction of the Primarchs, all Emperor's plans started eroding due to 18 charismatic leaders who didn't share his worldviews perfectly.

lurkeroutthere said:

Further ultimately we know that the emperor, while swinging occasionalyl towards pragmatism and having occasional moments of questionable judgement was ultimately a benevolent ruler who wasnted the best for humanity including his Genesons. Maybe my own religious beliefs are coloring it but I cannot see a benevolent ruler wanting or needing his children to be celebate. He made them functionally incapable of fear and that works out fine if you conveniently overlook all the useful things the fear response does for us, but to any but the most jaded religious crusader or virgin sex is generally seen as a positive thing.

Sex is only positive because we're programmed to produce offspring. Since the Astartes reproduce asexually anyway, they don't really need sex, and since it would be but a distraction in light of their duties, it'd be better if they just didn't feel the need at all.

The Emperor was pragmatic first and foremost. If he wanted his Space Marines to be happy, or functional human beings at all, I doubt what he'd create would be anything like what we know. But he wanted supersoldiers.

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Siranui said:

some of the utter canon-breaking fantastical character-backgrounds we've had stuffed down our throats for 20 years, not one character has ever been introduced as the child of an Astartes. Ever. Which for me totally blows out the window any chance that they can sire children.

The ability to sire children is not directly tied to the ability to engage in sexual acts and to have sexual relations. I agree with Space Marines being sterile, but that's far different from what others are suggesting.

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Morangias said:

And if they somehow completely disregard the number one reason for ever becoming a warrior (getting rich), it would be weird if they still had issues with the number two reason to ever become a warrior (getting laid) while still leading monastic lives that leave them with only 15 minutes a day for themselves - in such a setup, most of them would spend at least every other day's free time banging, and at this point it would make no sense that no such thing is ever mentioned.

F*** Club Rule #1: Don't talk about F*** Club.

Seriously though, it's not hard for me to imagine that some Chapter Serfs (male and female) are utilized for physical relaxation by the Space Marines. Whether that's a simple massage or much more is really up to the individual SM. I don't think the physical acts would really be all that distracting to the SM, but the key is actually to prevent emotional attachments (like "love") as those would be far more distracting.

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HappyDaze said:

The ability to sire children is not directly tied to the ability to engage in sexual acts and to have sexual relations. I agree with Space Marines being sterile, but that's far different from what others are suggesting.

Fair, but my point is that not only is sterility 100% reinforced by canon, but that non-functioning manbits are at least very heavily intimated. On the reverse; functioning manbits aren't ever really intimated (to the extent of my knowledge), even when such activities between 'normal' mortals are mentioned *in the same books sometimes*

I just can't think of a single good reason why you'd want your Astartes doing the dirty, or a piece of canon that backs it up. Whereas I can think of about a twenty reasons why it makes sense to bring out the cleaver!

 

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HappyDaze said:

Morangias said:

And if they somehow completely disregard the number one reason for ever becoming a warrior (getting rich), it would be weird if they still had issues with the number two reason to ever become a warrior (getting laid) while still leading monastic lives that leave them with only 15 minutes a day for themselves - in such a setup, most of them would spend at least every other day's free time banging, and at this point it would make no sense that no such thing is ever mentioned.

 

F*** Club Rule #1: Don't talk about F*** Club.

Seriously though, it's not hard for me to imagine that some Chapter Serfs (male and female) are utilized for physical relaxation by the Space Marines. Whether that's a simple massage or much more is really up to the individual SM. I don't think the physical acts would really be all that distracting to the SM, but the key is actually to prevent emotional attachments (like "love") as those would be far more distracting.

It's implausible to the extreme that we have absolutely no account of Astartes getting some action if they can get it at all. I know 40k isn't likely to delve into the details of anyone's intimate life, but on the whole it doesn't pretend the subject doesn't exist either. Just from my limited knowledge of the novels (it's **** hard to get any 40k novels in Poland), I remember at least two situations where a Space Marine and a woman found themselves in circumstances that would normally lead to sexual tension, but it never went anywhere. Compare, say, Dark Eldar codex, that implies many sexual activities and states some outright, so it's not like 40k is only written by prudes.

On your second point, some attachments are bound to form - if not actual romantic love, then just simply preferring some serfs over others. This, in turn, would lead to serfs courting the Marines in hope of advancing their position, and all the cheap drama it entails. Then, there's the simple matter of humans, much more corruptible than Astartes, having access to the Battle-Brothers in their most vulnerable moment.

No, the kind of crap going on would have to leave some impact on the world, where there's none.

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+++++sterility 100% reinforced by canon+++++

Then show me a reference for it.

+++++I just can't think of a single good reason why you'd want your Astartes doing the dirty+++++

No I can't think of why people would want their prefered self insertion character to have a functional *****.

Get real.

Take a look at this

Do you see them being so happy about being a Space Marine if their bits don't work?

I'm a Eunuch. That is so cool.

Honestly people, give your brains a chance.

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Morangias said:

 

Sex is only positive because we're programmed to produce offspring. Since the Astartes reproduce asexually anyway, they don't really need sex, and since it would be but a distraction in light of their duties, it'd be better if they just didn't feel the need at all.

The Emperor was pragmatic first and foremost. If he wanted his Space Marines to be happy, or functional human beings at all, I doubt what he'd create would be anything like what we know. But he wanted supersoldiers.

You know how I know your a virgin or at least not getting laid in a while? Other then that I think we're going to disagree on characterization of the emperor. If he wanted unthinking unfeeling machines he could have much much easier dusted off and taken another stab at the men of iron. Instead he chose to elevate humanity.

 

At this point there will be no consensus and honestly our world views can co-exist i just feel the one having marines be capable of sex requires less logical leaps..

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Wow, ya know, one side of this argument seems to have stooped to juvenile insults. Fantastic. Great job, guys. You're definitely winning people to your cause by telling your opponents to 'get real' and that they haven't been laid in a while. Good stuff.

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AluminiumWolf said:

+++++sterility 100% reinforced by canon+++++

Then show me a reference for it.

Sure, right after you show me any reference hinting otherwise.

On that note, I'm still waiting for your response in "Tanking in Deathwatch".

AluminiumWolf said:

+++++I just can't think of a single good reason why you'd want your Astartes doing the dirty+++++

No I can't think of why people would want their prefered self insertion character to have a functional *****.

This may shock you, but some people are less concerned about self-insertion and more concerned about perceiving the fictional world through the lens of it's hypothetical inhabitant.

By the way, how do you feel about your avatar beig a nigh-sociopathic mass murderer that zealously adheres to a Nazi-like ideology? Because that's what Space Marines are all about, and for most people I know it's a much bigger problem than having a non-functional dong. But they cope by not treating their characters as their avatars.

Oh, and 2/5 of my usual gaming group is female. Wonder how they feel about their characters not being able to have an erection...

AluminiumWolf said:

 

Oh, 

Get real.

Take a look at this

Do you see them being so happy about being a Space Marine if their bits don't work?

I'm a Eunuch. That is so cool.

Honestly people, give your brains a chance.

Considering all I see are actors starring in a paid commercial, I can even see them being so happy about getting a lavender enema. I doubt even half of them played the game at all (and frankly, I can't imagine anyone being happy about being a Space Marine if it worked like in this boring game), or that they really know anything about Space Marines other than the lines they were paid to read. So I fail to see how this has any bearing on what we're discussing.

As for "eunuch", the whole social stigma comes from the expectation that a man must be virile. There is no such expectation regarding the Space Marines, as they are only expected to serve the Imperium in matters of war. And most people wouldn't consider a SM as an object of sexual attraction anyway, considering their definitely inhuman looks and their legend as Angels of Death. Hence, no expectations, no stigma.

Also, I've seen people playing eunuchs of their own free will in different games, and they loved their characters and had great fun. For some people (most roleplayers I know, actually), playing an interesting character is more important than playing a character who can get laid. So your whole "fun" argument falls flat on me.

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