Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
jbuck

Sex and the single Space marine

Recommended Posts

Hate to smash your dreams, but SM+women=babies doesn't work. Mostly because they are, genetically, no longer compatible with humans. And apparently there are no FSM because the Emperor does want SMs to breed and overshadow normal humans, eventually taking them over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Not In Sample

Like I say, show me an official source that Marines can't breed.

I'll wait.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I wonder if at least some of the trepidation involving the official treatment of this topic has to do with the fact that Space Marines are, by default, able to get away with just about anything.  People have a lot easier time dealing with the fact that an Astartes can put a bolter shell in someone's head for looking at them funny than what else they might be able to get away with, especially within populations that don't even have the tenuous protection of Imperial law.

In all honesty, I would assume that the answer to this question is probably different for each chapter.  I can see some chapters encouraging "release" during down time with other battle brothers, some chapters admonishing their brothers to "take care of business" at designated times and no other time, others having chapter serfs for that express purpose, and still others that use the denial of such urges as a sign of the kind of discipline that the chapter expects.

Now, there is a big difference between not castrating someone and allowing them to reproduce.  I'm betting that an Astartes producing children with a normal human could introduce a wide range of  undesirable mutations.  Maybe this means Marines have a taboo against any fraternization, or perhaps it creates an atmosphere of supreme "carefulness." 

On the other hand, recent logic in comics has said that Kryptonians can't mate with humans because of genetic differences, so perhaps its not that the actual act can't happen, just that the genetics are too complicated to actually produce any offspring.  This has the added benefit of dovetailing with the "we can't have female space marines because then the Astartes will become their own race," because a female with said modifications might be able to procreate where a normal human would not.

Then again, it could be much simpler than all of that.  It could be that as a matter of discipline, Astartes can, but aren't suppose to, have sex.  It would explain why the one remembrancer in the first book of the Horus Heresy said that the Astartes physique was a "waste" when she was admiring it.  

Since I'm just a player and not the GM, I tend to try and keep in the spirit of the material, i.e. in Deathwatch, like in most Space Marine fiction, romance or sexuality really aren't much of a theme, so my Space Wolf isn't going to do much more than imply that wenching is part and parcel to being a well rounded space viking.  Romance and relationships seem like complications better suited to Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy, thematically.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AluminiumWolf said:

I like to think that Guard units have camp followers and sanctioned field brothels, even though they never get mentioned.

Like I say, before Cain would you have said Commisars had relationships? Why should Marines be any different?

 

Urrr... yeah they do. Have you read the Ghosts series?

And yes: Of course I would have said that Commisars have relationships, just like Soviet political officers had relationships... because they are human. Which marines aren't.

By all means declare they can and do get down and dirty by fiat; but that's really all it is. It's simply not a 'fact' of the game universe, as written. There's more evidence for the Blood Ravens being 1KS than there is for Marines breeding. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember that I read somewhere that the space marine was sterile....(but yes i suppose they can do sex and also fall to slanesh temptation).

This limitation, I suppose was introduced for avoid that the SM become a race apart from humanity...(I see much danger in this)

 

For your question:  "why the SM don't send an initiate to reproduce?"

To be Choosen for a chapter you must be one of the best warrior of an entire planet, but also you must have an iron will, courage, intelligence etc...

If I was Ragnar Blackmane of the Wolf, I'm not shure that my son was an incredible warrior, whit an Iron Will, etc...

 

hope this help...

 

:)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

now I'm trying to see from a space marine eyes....

I have a monastic life....

When I'm not in my chamber to prey, I'm in combat exercise...

too often I see the Horror of war and chaos...i risk madness

to preserve my soul and my mind from the horror that i see....I pray again with the chaplain

I can die everitime...

my life was war and carnage...i fight the chaos GODS....not the puppets, the GODS

My oath was to defend the human, but now I'm super Human...

I have also the black carapace, bone fused etc...

I suffer from terrible wound...

etc....

Yes that girl was very beatifull, but now i see her like my little sister, I must stand and protect her!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to complicate this one, I do recall references to rumours that Abaddon was actually Horus' son. Actually, I think the phrase might have been "Clone son."

This doesn't actually help with the "do marines have sex?"  issue...other than to suggest that perhaps Primarchs (or arguably perhaps only one Primarch) had sex.  Or...er...allowed themselves to be cloned. Which isn't quite same thing, now I think about it... sad.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I totally buy that Horus could've made a clone son for himself. That would also fit in nicely with the Abaddon's wrath that the Emperor's Children had cloned Horus themselves after they got hold of the corpse in the Eye of Terror.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Not In Sample

Siranui said:

And yes: Of course I would have said that Commisars have relationships, just like Soviet political officers had relationships...

 

I'd argue that Marines have about as much sex as monks.

Which is more than you might expect. In ye medieval times monks could become very rich by hard work and extorting money from the populace in return for spiritual services. As they got richer, their lifestyle improved and feasting and wenching became common. Usually there would then be a split and a splinter movement would form focusing on getting back to basics and living a simple life. Eventually the splinter would become rich and the process would repeat.

But even though stories about monks (especially storires for young readers) likely wouldn't feature them having a lot of sex, one should not infer that they can't.

But some Marines are Vikings, who have a lot of sex, and others are Knights, likewise.

My position is therefore this: Most Marines can have sex, but largely don't. Space Wolves definately do have sex, and a lot of it. Some chapters like to feed their genetic material back in to their recruitment pool to keep the population strong.

I feel that this gives the player choice as to how they like their Space Marines.

No one is saying that your own special chapter can't be chem gelded. I just don't want mine to be.

Seems fair, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Adeptus Astartes were created by a transcendent genius with precognitive powers to be the ultimate warriors. They are genetically and mentally rigged to be the best living war machines in the galaxy.

It'd be pretty moronic on Emprah's behalf to let them retain their sex drive, and remember we're talking about a guy who figured out how to completely rewrite a human fight or flight response instinct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Not In Sample

So do you actually want to play a sexless Space Marine, or are you just trolling?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AluminiumWolf said:

So do you actually want to play a sexless Space Marine, or are you just trolling?

I want to play what makes sense, and it makes sense that a genius creating a super army would remove the needless distraction of sexuality from his soldiers. I don't mind it at all, in fact I quite like how their alien, fanatical, single-minded focus differentiates them from all the awesome space marines of other settings.

Also, I completely disagree with your assertion that the game would be more mature if the Marines had a sex drive. There is nothing inherently mature in people talking about pretend relationships between their pretend supersoldiers and some pretend girls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Not In Sample

I didn't say it was more mature. I said it was more entertaining. :-P

With that said, a sexless Marine is pretty much a one gag entity. The Marines get in to a racy situation and don't notice. I don't know how long you can keep that funny, but hey.

With Marines with urges you have so much more roleplaying potential. You have functional but nominally celebate Marines dealing with temptation. You have interactions between non functional, functional but celebate, and free loving Marines. You gain access to a whole raft of female (and potenially male) characters in the people the Marines are having relationships with.

More options has to be better, right?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Morangias said:

AluminiumWolf said:

 

So do you actually want to play a sexless Space Marine, or are you just trolling?

 

 

I want to play what makes sense, and it makes sense that a genius creating a super army would remove the needless distraction of sexuality from his soldiers. I don't mind it at all, in fact I quite like how their alien, fanatical, single-minded focus differentiates them from all the awesome space marines of other settings.

Also, I completely disagree with your assertion that the game would be more mature if the Marines had a sex drive. There is nothing inherently mature in people talking about pretend relationships between their pretend supersoldiers and some pretend girls.

Well in fairness sex drive and agressiveness are heavily intertwined so if anything making the marines chemgelded could have reduced their combat effectiveness specificly. In essence it could have made them impotent men in most senses of the word so there's at least a strong enough argument for the decisions being made to keep all that active.

 

Also remember that space marine's wern't originally built for the grim dark future or dreamed up for a monastic lifestle of total unbending faith in the emperor. They were supposed to be warrior knights and scholars who were going to win the crusade and the hearts and minds bringing people into the secular light of the imperial truth and ushering in order and peace through the galaxy.

I guess what I'm saying is your applying motivations to the genius level intellect that he might not have had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we have learned anything about the 40K universe, it's that lots of things in the universe are based on quirk.  Blame it on the influence of Chaos, or just an underlying sense of humor, but no matter how smart the Emperor might have been, he's not infallible, else we would have never seen the Horus Heresy.  

If a sex drive seems to be a strange thing to leave Space Marines with, what about a chapter that emulates vikings?  Or one that emulates Monguls?  Or ones that can actually be disobedient to any degree at all?  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

UncleArkie said:

 I don't have my books with me, but I'm pretty sure that in Battle of the Fang one of the Great Wolves is described as being a seducer of women, having had many conquests *insert fenrisian crudeness*

As far as I can tell, those who write fluff for the Space Wolves are required to subvert as many of the 'rules' all other Astartes follow as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't claim to be any kind of expert on the fluff of 40k.  I've read some of it, but not all by any means.

Anyway, my impression of sex as it relates to space marines has always been that the Adeptus Astartes are monks as much as they are soldiers.  Warrior monks, if you will.  They're perfectly capable of having sexual intercourse and they probably still have all the same urges (perhaps even enhanced urges spurred by some of their implants.)  They don't generally have sex because they have chosen a celibate lifestyle.  They can still succumb to seduction (sexual or otherwise) although they ARE reknown for their higher than average willpower.  That has less to do with them not wanting sex and more to do with them being stubborn, God-Emperor worshiping zealots, however.

All of the chapters have different ways of recruiting new members, but none of them (that I'm aware of) engage in involuntary drafting techniques.  A person doesn't wake up one day to realise he's been shanghai'd into the local Space Marine cult and implanted against his will.  Every person who becomes a space marine does so by choice, and usually only after succeeding in some pretty severe initiation rituals to prove himself worthy.  He knows what he's signing up for and he knows sex with spacebabes across the galaxy is NOT part of the deal.

The lack of sexual activity among marines is an intellectual choice, not something that's forced upon them by the geneseed.  Needless to say, individual chapters vary wildly in customs and practices.  I'm speaking in general here, but it's entirely possible that some chapters DO engage in sexual activity, and may even keep a certain number of women around the HQ for just such purposes.  (Please no feminist hate-mail, I'm just saying is all.)

As far as the idea about marines removing themselves from the genepool, it should be remembered that the vast majority of a marine's genetic capabilities come from the geneseed.  I seem to recall something about Blood Angels, in particular, that said their geneseed will transform anyone implanted into a blond-haired, white skinned Aryan super-hunk.  If a black man were implanted, he wouldn't even stay black!  Clearly, the idea of propagating their genes through sexual reproduction is unnecessary.  Anyone who proves themselves worthy of implantation via chapter-specific rites will be given the genetic stock they need by virtue of the geneseed itself.

Gantz the slaughterer said:

 

now I'm trying to see from a space marine eyes....

I have a monastic life....

When I'm not in my chamber to prey, I'm in combat exercise...

 

 

I'm fairly sure you meant "pray," although I must admit that the idea of a marine locking himself in his quarters in order to hunt something down (God-Emperor only knows what) is not entirely out of line, especially for some of the more wildly predatory chapters... =P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My take on it has always been that Space Marines are fully capable of engaging in sexual activity, but I have ruled that they are sterile. As to whether or not they engage in sexual activities, that's really an individual choice. Sure, Chapter guides the likely demeanor of it's Battle-Brothers and this may show institutional pressure, but sexuality and how it's expressed (so long as it doesn't bring dishonour to the Chapter, the Emperor, etc.) is still a personal topic even for a Space Marine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AluminiumWolf said:

My position is therefore this: Most Marines can have sex, but largely don't. Space Wolves definately do have sex, and a lot of it. Some chapters like to feed their genetic material back in to their recruitment pool to keep the population strong.

I feel that this gives the player choice as to how they like their Space Marines.

Yes please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AluminiumWolf said:

 

I didn't say it was more mature. I said it was more entertaining. :-P

With that said, a sexless Marine is pretty much a one gag entity. The Marines get in to a racy situation and don't notice. I don't know how long you can keep that funny, but hey.

With Marines with urges you have so much more roleplaying potential. You have functional but nominally celebate Marines dealing with temptation. You have interactions between non functional, functional but celebate, and free loving Marines. You gain access to a whole raft of female (and potenially male) characters in the people the Marines are having relationships with.

More options has to be better, right?

 

 

 

If more options was always better, we'd all be playing a universal system. Astartes have lots of roleplaying potential, sex drive or not. And why should I keep it funny? It's a game about grim warrior-monks in a grim universe.

 

lurkeroutthere said:

Well in fairness sex drive and agressiveness are heavily intertwined so if anything making the marines chemgelded could have reduced their combat effectiveness specificly. In essence it could have made them impotent men in most senses of the word so there's at least a strong enough argument for the decisions being made to keep all that active.

 

Surely a guy who managed to take the human fight or flight instinct and turn it into "fight, no matter what" could also rewire all that sex-derived aggression to remove sex out of the equation. Because seriously, when you're designing perfectly obedient supersoldiers that are meant to operate as monastic orders, leaving the sex drive is a recipe for disaster. The Emperor has made many dubious choices in his career, but I really hope he wasn't that stupid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Morangias said:

Surely a guy who managed to take the human fight or flight instinct and turn it into "fight, no matter what" could also rewire all that sex-derived aggression to remove sex out of the equation. Because seriously, when you're designing perfectly obedient supersoldiers that are meant to operate as monastic orders, leaving the sex drive is a recipe for disaster. The Emperor has made many dubious choices in his career, but I really hope he wasn't that stupid.

Losing half your Marines to Chaos says they're not exactly 'perfectly obedient.'  But then again maybe he was so focused on preventing them from having sex he forgot to see that they were full of other flaws.

I don't think the Emperor designed the Chapters to be run like Monastic Orders, either- the Emperor created them to be the best warriors and statesment the galaxy had ever seen.  He wasn't just about them being killing machines, but also wanted them to be his new political leaders as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charmander said:

Morangias said:

 

Surely a guy who managed to take the human fight or flight instinct and turn it into "fight, no matter what" could also rewire all that sex-derived aggression to remove sex out of the equation. Because seriously, when you're designing perfectly obedient supersoldiers that are meant to operate as monastic orders, leaving the sex drive is a recipe for disaster. The Emperor has made many dubious choices in his career, but I really hope he wasn't that stupid.

 

 

Losing half your Marines to Chaos says they're not exactly 'perfectly obedient.'  But then again maybe he was so focused on preventing them from having sex he forgot to see that they were full of other flaws.

I don't think the Emperor designed the Chapters to be run like Monastic Orders, either- the Emperor created them to be the best warriors and statesment the galaxy had ever seen.  He wasn't just about them being killing machines, but also wanted them to be his new political leaders as well. 

No, the Primarchs and the Adeptus Terra (in whatever form they existed back then) were his political powerbase, the Marines were just there for military operations. They weren't even widely used as occupation forces, mostly they packed up the minute the battle was won and let the Guard take over .

As for the heresy and half of Astartes turning traitor, most of them did so to obey their Primarchs. That's what happens when you send middlemen to do the job for you. It was a failure of Emprah's HR management skills first and foremost, but in a way, it's a testament to how unquestionably obedient they were towards their immediate superiors. By contrast, rigging the Astartes to experience sexual urges would be a crucial design error, way below his intelligence.

Think about it for a minute. The Emperor was a man of immense education and vast experience. Surely he read the Illiad and knew how many problems were caused by Achilles' sexual urges. And his goal was to have an army of many millions, each soldier equal to Achilles in combat prowess - surely he wanted to eliminate as many ego- and libido-related issues as possible. Then, these supersoldiers were supposed to carry his banner across the stars and unite all humankind under his rule - certainly, he could have foreseen how ****** the women of newly conquered worlds wasn't good for the morale and cohesiveness of his rising empire, and such occurences were bound to happen with thousands of soldiers in warzones. Then, his entire plan for he galaxy was secretly aimed at suppressing the things that made Chaos Gods stronger, and it so happens one of the big four is personally interested in people who like sex too much - presumably he understood statistics well enough to deduce at least a part of his main force would be susceptible to such temptations.

Now, this man is faced with a choice. Either he deals with the sexuality of his supersoldiers the same all other armies tried to cope with it - suppressing it through indoctrination and channeling it into aggression through training, or he could use his super-genius powers to eliminate the issue entirely through a mixture of gene-tampering, neuro-conditioning and hypno-indoctrination. Now, what option do you think makes more sense?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Not In Sample

Hey man, emotionless robots make terrible characters. There is only one plot for emotionless killing machines - the heartwarming tale of a robot learning to love.

See Short Circuit, Terminator 2, Universal Soldier.

Unless you want to read the same story over and over again, Marines need all the personality they can get.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...