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Where does it say that the Geneseed / Progenoid Glands don't work in females?

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I've looked over the pages for both on the 40k wiki and I can't find it saying anything about why the process would not work on females. Mind you, I'm not asking why isn't it done, just if they ever give a reason why it wouldn't work.

 

My thought here is that for a Black Crusade game, since they are more likely to buck tradition and all that, I could definitely see them attempting to implant the geneseed into a female and make a woman space marine.

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Additionally:

"They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types . . ." (Page 15, Deathwatch core rulebook)

Seems pretty conclusive to me on why gene seed cannot be implanted in human females. Anyway, if I was running a game and a player wanted to run a superhuman female character of some kind, I'd tell them to go make a female Vindicare. I certainly don't see why not a Vindicare can't somehow go rogue if we're talking about a Black Crusade game.

-Kirov

 

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If you need I can post the 101 arguments for and against such a thing.  The trick is, unscientifically, the fluff says you can't have female space marines.  Period.  The End.  There is not negiotiation with the existing background.

However, I can also give you 101 ways around the 'science' used in the fluff for this, and even ways around the existing fluff.  Being part of the Black Crusade would make it even easier.

If you ask me, and no one ever does, the trick is simply understanding the existing background and taking into account the possible ramifications of the existence of a real FSM.  Whether it's an individual, a chapter, what have you, it would have a pretty significant impact on the in-game world.

If you do your search for FSM on the forums, you'll see a ton of ideas on how to get women into a game largely dominated by male marines- some are good, some are bad, and some are plain offensive, but it's worth a read.

 

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Killbeggar said:

GW released 2 (butt ugly) female Space Marine minis in the days of the original Rogue Trader. They were retconned out of existence in the next edition, but they were once canon. . .

 

Rogue Trader was never really Canon...  Except for Rogue Trader.

 

That said, it's also mentioned in one of the early Horus Heresy novels that it was a very on purpose thing to keep Astartes from breeding true and becoming a genuinely new race that would supplant humans rather than one there to defend them. 

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 On the subject of doing it in Black Crusade, however... I'm not sure what edition or book, but I know for a fact that in a Games Workshop licensed product there is a list of Chaos mutations. One of them is 'change gender'. Chaos Marines are not forbidden from gaining this mutation. Thus, unlike Deathwatch- where I'm staunchly anti-female Muhreen, in Black Crusade a female Traitor Astartes could fly.

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i read of only one female marine...

in metal storm novel, the armor of a chaos champion, rejected the actual host and choose a female host.....

she was consumed by the armor.......and became a champion....with the older champion name!

 

female loyalty space marine???  heresy...

(i suppose the really problem was linked to chromosome).

no way to become a sister of battle?

if she was a power armor, give her a power armor......

 

if she insisted, let her choose by a chapter...let her try to mutate to a space marine....let her die to complication in the zygote implantation...

 

otherwise change the rule....it's your game....it's your funny time.....

 

:)

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Gantz the slaughterer said:

i read of only one female marine...

in metal storm novel, the armor of a chaos champion, rejected the actual host and choose a female host.....

she was consumed by the armor.......and became a champion....with the older champion name!

Just to nit pick a little, she was never a marine. Just a stupid human who got possessed by a daemon bound suit of armor, effectively turning her into an unbound deamon host in a chaos champions armor, never a female marine.

Storm of Iron was the books title in the U.S., not sure what it was elsewhere. 

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Because... was a reason given too children when parents don't know what to answer and it woudl prove too complicated to actualy find the trurth.

Why not?  Is often the opening line to a date.

Dare you!  Is a comment before having fun usually or a lot of hate.

You serious? Comment said by people when someone else get enerved over somethign taht as no real importance in life.

It your life, your mind. Self explanatory

I really don't give a **** about your self contradictory fluff, retcon rules or fluf or anything involving ambigious rules or codexs, I like the atmosphere of the game not the little unimportant details!!!!!  Normal minded 40k Fan making a point to freakin fluff and rulez lawyer.

 

 

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There seem to be female CSM. And as theoretically a CSM can become a blackshield and thus join the deathwatch there could be a female deathwatch marine.

but I see several problems with that:

  • The deathwatch will not have spare PA parts suited for female SM.
  • The other SM will know that the female was once a CSM and will mistrust her
  • If the KT has an apothecary with them he'll not be udes to treating femal SM, so I'd not see how he should get his narcethium bonus.

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ItsUncertainWho said:

Gantz the slaughterer said:

 

i read of only one female marine...

in metal storm novel, the armor of a chaos champion, rejected the actual host and choose a female host.....

she was consumed by the armor.......and became a champion....with the older champion name!

 

 

Just to nit pick a little, she was never a marine. Just a stupid human who got possessed by a daemon bound suit of armor, effectively turning her into an unbound deamon host in a chaos champions armor, never a female marine.

Storm of Iron was the books title in the U.S., not sure what it was elsewhere. 

 

Ho thanks fot the clarification....

in Italy it was "tempesta d'acciaio"...

 

cheers

 

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LockLock said:

Quackery?

People always resort to this type of answer. The frequent pronouncements on here about, "that's now how genetics work!". Because a bunch of internet nerds are such experts in the field of genetics, aren't we?

I'm sure the whole thing being tied to chromosomes and such is perfectly plausible, just like several other things that everyone is sure is hokey about 40K, but is actually plausible from a scientific standpoint (if not a likely possibility).

 

Anyway OP, another bit of in character justification for it is that because the genetic material used in creating the zygotes is derived from the Primarchs themselves, and they are all male (aside from some fanon theories concerning the 2 mystery Primarchs/Legions), then the organs will only be compatible with a male body, or some such.

Frankly, I don't see a great need of changing the setting around just for the sake of female Space Marines, any more than I see a need to change things so that men can become Sisters of Battle (and possess a force of faith so great that it is effectively a psychic power.. see, they do have something going for them of their own).

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The funny part is if you remvoe those 2 lines from the book about boys and girls... the game is actually the same. Women or man, you stillhave guns and power armor!

 

How neat...

 

And that is just 2 lines of really not game changing plot... not like saying the Imperator is now a lichtcor or the Astornomicon is a Necron C'tan turned human lover and farms space bunny for a living....

 

 p.s. Never mind explaining how ugly that SM women must be, with those super big bones and enlarged frame and what not... sounds like Tatcher on a power armor... that's a FCSM!!!

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Umbranus said:

 

There seem to be female CSM. And as theoretically a CSM can become a blackshield and thus join the deathwatch there could be a female deathwatch marine.

but I see several problems with that:

  • The deathwatch will not have spare PA parts suited for female SM.
  • The other SM will know that the female was once a CSM and will mistrust her
  • If the KT has an apothecary with them he'll not be udes to treating femal SM, so I'd not see how he should get his narcethium bonus.

 

 

I don't think you'd need any spare "female" armor parts.  The fluff on the geneseed is that it partly relies on massive doses of masculine hormones like testosterone to enact the changes that turn you from a regular male to a 7ft+ tall steroid superfreak.  If you look at real life equivalents of females and males that take high doses of anabolic steroids, the physical differences that separate male from female outlines (which would be the physical differences that would make a difference in armor... lack of a crotch bulge doesn't require new flatter groin armor) are minimized.  If you extrapolate those same changes to the ridiculous scifi levels that would be needed to make a space marine, you'd end up with a very ugly female space marine that would look very similar to a very ugly male marine... neither of which looks particularly human in their proportions.

 

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Sanguinary Priest said:

If you look at real life equivalents of females and males that take high doses of anabolic steroids, the physical differences that separate male from female outlines (which would be the physical differences that would make a difference in armor... lack of a crotch bulge doesn't require new flatter groin armor) are minimized.  

It's a good point, the doses of steroids, or the 40k equivalent, requried to make a marine would likely bulk up the women so much the physical differences would be minimal.  Now if you want more 'girly' space marines this would change for certain, though if you go that route you might want to change up some of the unnaturals.  To me it strains the suspension of disbelief to give unnatural strength to someone of a slight frame, unless that strength comes from something other than muscles (bionics, warp favors, etc.).

But to Umbranus' point, if the bonuses were granted via warpcraft you'd still see the problems he pointed out (though what happens when you run away from the guy that granted you said powers is still an open question).

 

But lastly, the OP mentioned that they were doing a Black Crusade game, which suggests the Deathwatch woulnd't be that involved.

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Dulahan said:

That said, it's also mentioned in one of the early Horus Heresy novels that it was a very on purpose thing to keep Astartes from breeding true and becoming a genuinely new race that would supplant humans rather than one there to defend them. 

You know, this is actually the best and most logical reasoning I have ever heard for not having FSM. That being said, it also sounds like a great reason for the CSM to attempt such a thing.

 

Thanks all!

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BeyondFandom said:

Dulahan said:

That said, it's also mentioned in one of the early Horus Heresy novels that it was a very on purpose thing to keep Astartes from breeding true and becoming a genuinely new race that would supplant humans rather than one there to defend them. 

 

You know, this is actually the best and most logical reasoning I have ever heard for not having FSM. That being said, it also sounds like a great reason for the CSM to attempt such a thing.

 

Thanks all!

 

It's certainly something to ponder.

 

that being said, there's a bit more biologically for the current Gene Seed as well - it was made just to be for males too (Same rough place.  There is some mention of women being attempted somewhere, but their survival is even less likely than males, which is already a pretty small margin, just getting the seed and organs is still only like a 1 in 50 or worse chance of making it!).  It is of course tied to male hormones...

 

So putting the current one into a woman would have an effect similar to that of massive male hormones into a genetic woman at Puberty.  In a nutshell, women would have a disadvantage of needing to be implanted a  bit earlier (as in general women hit puberty sooner), and then the male hormones would block female puberty and essentially have her develop like a man that just didn't have a *****.  This is the same effect such hormones (in much smaller doses) have on transgender people in countries that allow it.  So if a woman did get a Male geneseed and survived, you really couldn't tell the difference without looking to the crotch (There's some arguments on how... erm... visible even that is.  As an overdose of the same male hormones is essentially what Steroids are, and that causes shrinkage too).

 

Now, female geneseed!  I agree it would be a good Chaos Plot.  Though will mention the canon problems (By no means let this stop you from making it a game plot.  Frankly, it could be a good one that "IMMEDIATE DEATHWATCH INTERVENTION REQUESTED BY ORDO HERETICUS.  FOR THE LOVE OF THE EMPEROR PRETTY PLEASE WITH SUGAR ON TOP!!!" would be a valid response for.  Of course, as you'll see below, any gene seed production could be...

 

Anyways, canon wise, Chaos has more problems replacing Gene Seed than even the Loyalists.  They go through some creative methods to even try it (The weird womb things in Storm of Iron and one of the Ultramarines books).  No doubt they lose even more men in battle and the seed they have must be corrupted to be harder to replace it - a big source of theirs is stolen gene seed from loyalists!  They've had Fabius Bile, with Nurgle's Help, trying to recreate Gene Seed for 10,000 years.  And they can't even make male Gene Seed.   Even a Primarch was unable to do so much as stop the impurities in his own gene seed (Corax of the Raven Guard).  And his best attempt to create it with his father's notes (!) only managed to create horribly mutated spawn that were impossible to control.  And that was a primarch...

 

So anyways, someone who could find a way to make new Gene Seed - whether it created Male or Female - would be the biggest type of threat the Empire could have.  Like they would devote everything possible to destroy it.  The only thing even close to comparing would be a new Titan Design or fleet construction facility that could make Capital Ships at a rapid rate.  And even those probably pale in comparison.

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